1992 article on Glock paranoia - Page 3

**Mike Irwin** · June 1, 2013, 11:38 AM

"city officials in both Chicago and New York have resisted their use, saying the guns are more advanced than the average officer's ability to handle them"

There's another way of looking at that statement....

"City officials....saying [our departmental training standards are not up to introducing a new weapon.]

I suspect that that was actually a lot closer to the truth, and it was a truth that played out in at least one major police department.

In the late 1980s Washington, DC, transitioned its police force from revolvers to Glocks.

It was, for several years, an unmitigated disaster.

Accidental/negligent discharges went through the roof. Unintentional shootings, including several deaths, with subsequent high-dollar payouts to victims or survivors, skyrocketed.

In 1998 the Washington Post did a multi part series on the problems. IIRC it ended up winning a Pulitzer Prize.

It's a REALLY good read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lice1page1.htm

At the time the DC police switched, they were in something of a perfect storm.

Budgets were down, including budgets for training, and a number of their long-time master trainers had either retired or left the force, so the transition training that the officers received was highly inadequate.

Also at the same time the force was under court order to significantly increase its hiring of minority candidates. That was its own disaster, as many officers were inadequately vetted, and quite a few had criminal records when they joined the force. The classes from those years were charged and convicted of crimes, or terminated for cause, at an incredibly high rate.

DC has done a lot to recover from this mess. It's revamped its training regime to make sure that new officers are adequately trained on the Glock, they MAY, but I'm not sure, have adopted a heavier trigger, and they require more intensive and more frequent recertification than they used to.

Still, that doesn't always mean that it's going to go well.

I knew one of the master trainers for the DC Police. Really good guy, incredibly knowledgeable about firearms, etc. etc. etc.

He still managed to blow the tips off two of his fingers in a moment of inattention.

Bart Noir · June 3, 2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

He still managed to blow the tips off two of his fingers in a moment of inattention.

Mike, not arguing with you or your post, but my first thought was he had made the mistake of putting the supporting hand so the fingers are right at the cylinder gap. Although I'm not sure that finger tips get blown off. Maybe only "heat treated".

And I don't ever want to personally find out. Heck, yesterday my 1858 Remington (repro) would send a very brief hot blast onto the shooting hand. The supporting hand was supporting the inside of my jeans pocket just so it didn't wander up near that cylinder.

Bart Noir

**Mike Irwin** · June 4, 2013, 08:10 AM

"Mike, not arguing with you or your post, but my first thought was he had made the mistake of putting the supporting hand so the fingers are right at the cylinder gap."

Cylinder gap?

He did it with a Glock.

On the training range.

In front of a group of recruits.

He fully fessed up to responsibility for the incident, saying he wasn't paying enough attention to a hot gun.

Bart Noir · June 4, 2013, 07:24 PM

Yeah, Mike, I understood that.

Was just pointing out that people could still hurt themselves with the old wheelguns, once the brain was not fully involved in gun manipulation.

So he was well trained from the old days (revolvers) and didn't do so well with something new.

Bart Noir

dsk · June 6, 2013, 12:55 AM

Looks like most of you missed yet another gem from the article:

Quote:

Semiautomatics, which have been in wide use in Europe for decades, have been enthusiastically embraced by some law-enforcement agencies in the United States since the mid-1980's, when the military decided to exchange its revolvers for 9-millimeter guns.

Apparently there was a 74-year time warp in between the use of the .38 revolvers and the 9mm Beretta.

**Tom Servo** · June 6, 2013, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Apparently there was a 74-year time warp in between the use of the .38 revolvers and the 9mm Beretta

Actually, S&W Model 15's were issued in several units until the mid-1980's, so in some cases, they were directly succeeded by the M9.

**Mike Irwin** · June 6, 2013, 07:59 AM

No, I saw that in 1998 when the series was first released....

Nakanokalronin · June 8, 2013, 06:27 PM

They were worried about the Glock 7 that can pass through metal detectors and cost more than the police Chief makes in a month.

June 1, 2013, 11:38 AM	#51
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	"city officials in both Chicago and New York have resisted their use, saying the guns are more advanced than the average officer's ability to handle them" There's another way of looking at that statement.... "City officials....saying [our departmental training standards are not up to introducing a new weapon.] I suspect that that was actually a lot closer to the truth, and it was a truth that played out in at least one major police department. In the late 1980s Washington, DC, transitioned its police force from revolvers to Glocks. It was, for several years, an unmitigated disaster. Accidental/negligent discharges went through the roof. Unintentional shootings, including several deaths, with subsequent high-dollar payouts to victims or survivors, skyrocketed. In 1998 the Washington Post did a multi part series on the problems. IIRC it ended up winning a Pulitzer Prize. It's a REALLY good read: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lice1page1.htm At the time the DC police switched, they were in something of a perfect storm. Budgets were down, including budgets for training, and a number of their long-time master trainers had either retired or left the force, so the transition training that the officers received was highly inadequate. Also at the same time the force was under court order to significantly increase its hiring of minority candidates. That was its own disaster, as many officers were inadequately vetted, and quite a few had criminal records when they joined the force. The classes from those years were charged and convicted of crimes, or terminated for cause, at an incredibly high rate. DC has done a lot to recover from this mess. It's revamped its training regime to make sure that new officers are adequately trained on the Glock, they MAY, but I'm not sure, have adopted a heavier trigger, and they require more intensive and more frequent recertification than they used to. Still, that doesn't always mean that it's going to go well. I knew one of the master trainers for the DC Police. Really good guy, incredibly knowledgeable about firearms, etc. etc. etc. He still managed to blow the tips off two of his fingers in a moment of inattention. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 4, 2013, 08:10 AM	#53
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	"Mike, not arguing with you or your post, but my first thought was he had made the mistake of putting the supporting hand so the fingers are right at the cylinder gap." Cylinder gap? He did it with a Glock. On the training range. In front of a group of recruits. He fully fessed up to responsibility for the incident, saying he wasn't paying enough attention to a hot gun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 6, 2013, 07:59 AM	#57
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,642	No, I saw that in 1998 when the series was first released.... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 4, 2013, 07:24 PM	#54
Bart Noir Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2000 Location: Puget Sound, USA Posts: 2,215	Yeah, Mike, I understood that. Was just pointing out that people could still hurt themselves with the old wheelguns, once the brain was not fully involved in gun manipulation. So he was well trained from the old days (revolvers) and didn't do so well with something new. Bart Noir

June 8, 2013, 06:27 PM	#58
Nakanokalronin Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2006 Posts: 1,066	They were worried about the Glock 7 that can pass through metal detectors and cost more than the police Chief makes in a month.