The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Was talking to an semi anti gunner, would like some advice on how to reply.

Kimio · January 5, 2013, 04:35 AM

This will cover several strings, as it is very very long.

No, it is not because she owned a "Semi Automatic rifle with detachable magazines. It is because she failed to secure them properly while she knew she had a child who was known to be unstable.

Friend said:
What do you mean child? The guy was 20. If it takes an adult to secure them then it takes an adult to unsecure them. It wouldn't have been that hard for him to know where the key to the locks that keep the guns are in a house hes been living in for 20 years. For all we know he probably shot them regularly and was in charge of keeping them locked up himself.

alcohol, knives, cars etc, strawman

Friend Said:
You can try to equate guns to alcohol and cars but they simply aren't the same thing and this isn't the issue at hand. Besides, semi automatic guns with magazines are not used by nearly as many people as alcohol or box cutters or cars and those things all have purposes besides putting many holes in a lot of objects in a small amount of time.

No, it is not because she owned a "Semi Automatic rifle with detachable magazines. It is because she failed to secure them properly while she knew she had a child who was known to be unstable.

Friend Said:
What do you mean child? The guy was 20. If it takes an adult to secure them then it takes an adult to unsecure them. It wouldn't have been that hard for him to know where the key to the locks that keep the guns are in a house hes been living in for 20 years. For all we know he probably shot them regularly and was in charge of keeping them locked up himself.

alcohol, knives, cars etc, strawman

Friend Said:
You can try to equate guns to alcohol and cars but they simply aren't the same thing and this isn't the issue at hand. Besides, semi automatic guns with magazines are not used by nearly as many people as alcohol or box cutters or cars and those things all have purposes besides putting many holes in a lot of objects in a small amount of time.

tracking guns with magazines, violation of 4th amendment etc.

Friend Said:
As far as I know you already have to register your guns. Looking at the records and making a distinction of the ones that are semi auto wouldn't be a huge extra step. If officials can come to your house to make sure your car is registered or your pool has a fence around it or your taxes are paid I don't think it would be a constitutional issue to have people come and ask you if your guns are registered.

James Eagen Holmes, the nut job that decided to walk into a theater in Aurora brought with him a S&W M&P AR15 with a 100 round magazine, Glock 22 and a Remington 870 12g shotgun. After thirty rounds the AR15 jammed and him not knowing how to clear said jam abandoned the firearm and still managed to kill 12 and injure 58. This was in a crowded theater, no one else was armed, and Mr. Holmes was not a military vet, nor was he exactly the most physically fit. There were hundreds of people there, they could have easily overpowered him and taken his shotgun away right?

Friend Said:
If the gun hadn't jammed more people would have died; him using the pump action probably lowered his ROF and thus allowed more people to escape before being shot.

We have firearms that date back to the civil war that are still functioning to this day, some firearms are even older. Magazines that were in use since the Korean war that are also still functioning. Magazines are simply molded plastic or stamped aluminum or steel sheet metal with a spring inside them. They are not exactly complex pieces of hardware, they are simply to fabricate and repair if necessary. As I had mentioned before, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make a spring, anyone with some basic knowledge and basic tools could probably fabricate new springs for their magazines if they so desired making this argument practically a moot point.

A good example of how long firearms last is the Mosin Nagant M1895 double action revolver invented in Soviet Russia. These handguns can still be found on the surplus market, this is a handgun that's been around for 118 years that still functions to this day!

Friend Said:
Buying from the surplus market would be illegal if the further sale is illegal. Take the guns when the owner dies as well. Should be a lower amount of them sitting around in homes within a few generations.

Okay, so we ban certain types of alcohol. You know, here in Utah the sale of alcohol that has an alcohol content of greater than 3.2% from being sold in commercial grocery stores. If you want to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels for example, you must go to a liqueur store to do so. Furthermore, restaurants, bars and other locations/venues that allow the purchase of said alcoholic beverages are prohibited from selling them before 11:30AM and no later than 1:00AM. Does this stop accidents caused by individuals whom are intoxicated? Does this prevent some of the more shady establishments from selling alcohol outside the legal time limits? No they don't, I hear about people getting drunk all the time and doing stupid things all the time, both of legal and illegal drinking age.

Friend Said:
This doesn't make any sense. The point you made was that banning alcohol just ended up in al capone. my counter point is that only banning a small minority of alcohols (equivalent to banning a small portion of guns and very few people use guns to begin with) would not end up in al capone. My point was not that banning some kinds of alcohol removes the danger from all kinds of alcohol.

To stop the horrors involved with crimes that are committed while being intoxicated you would have to ban Alcohol in its entirety, but society won't accept that, after all, what gives the government the right to say that I don't need alcohol in my life. That's like saying you and me are too irresponsible to be trusted with such a dangerous beverage. We wouldn't want to risk other peoples safety based on what we MIGHT do while being intoxicated right?

Friend Said:
We tried this and it was prohibition, it didn't work, because everyone loves alcohol. Not everyone loves semi automatic guns and there isn't enough people who use them and would care about them enough to keep using them though they were illegal to cause a prohibtion esque flagrant disregard and counter productive view of the law.

knives bombs etc

Friend Said:
I don't really think there's any conclusive evidence that people who can't let out their anger by shooting people will instead build bombs and commit much worse atrocities.

There is nothing "Easy" about this problem,

Friend Said:
Moving a mountain is easier than draining the sea; I didn't say easy I said easier.

bombs explosives etc

Friend Said:
Again, I don't really think there's any evidence that guns are a convenient buffer keeping people from using more damaging bombs to commit terrorism. And again, just because there are things that people can do to do more damage it doesn't mean everything less dangerous should automatically be legal because of it.

Friend Said:

Most of these psychos kill themselves during the act. They don't care about the consequence.

tl;dr

No you'd think that the crazy kid would find the non semi auto guns and use those to do his crime with, and because of the slower nature of the guns, a few more people might get away with their lives and the only consequence is a small group of gun aficionados don't get to have quite as much fun on the firing range.

Again, guns are an equalizer and a tool for the law abiding, a weapon and tool for chaos and anarchy for those who are not.

Friend Said:
Statistically, most fatal home invasions occur when someone escalates the situation by trying to defend themselves with a gun against the criminal invading. You're actually better off being undefended unless you value your tv more than your life.

January 5, 2013, 04:35 AM	#52
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	This will cover several strings, as it is very very long. No, it is not because she owned a "Semi Automatic rifle with detachable magazines. It is because she failed to secure them properly while she knew she had a child who was known to be unstable. Friend said: What do you mean child? The guy was 20. If it takes an adult to secure them then it takes an adult to unsecure them. It wouldn't have been that hard for him to know where the key to the locks that keep the guns are in a house hes been living in for 20 years. For all we know he probably shot them regularly and was in charge of keeping them locked up himself. alcohol, knives, cars etc, strawman Friend Said: You can try to equate guns to alcohol and cars but they simply aren't the same thing and this isn't the issue at hand. Besides, semi automatic guns with magazines are not used by nearly as many people as alcohol or box cutters or cars and those things all have purposes besides putting many holes in a lot of objects in a small amount of time. No, it is not because she owned a "Semi Automatic rifle with detachable magazines. It is because she failed to secure them properly while she knew she had a child who was known to be unstable. Friend Said: What do you mean child? The guy was 20. If it takes an adult to secure them then it takes an adult to unsecure them. It wouldn't have been that hard for him to know where the key to the locks that keep the guns are in a house hes been living in for 20 years. For all we know he probably shot them regularly and was in charge of keeping them locked up himself. alcohol, knives, cars etc, strawman Friend Said: You can try to equate guns to alcohol and cars but they simply aren't the same thing and this isn't the issue at hand. Besides, semi automatic guns with magazines are not used by nearly as many people as alcohol or box cutters or cars and those things all have purposes besides putting many holes in a lot of objects in a small amount of time. tracking guns with magazines, violation of 4th amendment etc. Friend Said: As far as I know you already have to register your guns. Looking at the records and making a distinction of the ones that are semi auto wouldn't be a huge extra step. If officials can come to your house to make sure your car is registered or your pool has a fence around it or your taxes are paid I don't think it would be a constitutional issue to have people come and ask you if your guns are registered. James Eagen Holmes, the nut job that decided to walk into a theater in Aurora brought with him a S&W M&P AR15 with a 100 round magazine, Glock 22 and a Remington 870 12g shotgun. After thirty rounds the AR15 jammed and him not knowing how to clear said jam abandoned the firearm and still managed to kill 12 and injure 58. This was in a crowded theater, no one else was armed, and Mr. Holmes was not a military vet, nor was he exactly the most physically fit. There were hundreds of people there, they could have easily overpowered him and taken his shotgun away right? Friend Said: If the gun hadn't jammed more people would have died; him using the pump action probably lowered his ROF and thus allowed more people to escape before being shot. We have firearms that date back to the civil war that are still functioning to this day, some firearms are even older. Magazines that were in use since the Korean war that are also still functioning. Magazines are simply molded plastic or stamped aluminum or steel sheet metal with a spring inside them. They are not exactly complex pieces of hardware, they are simply to fabricate and repair if necessary. As I had mentioned before, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make a spring, anyone with some basic knowledge and basic tools could probably fabricate new springs for their magazines if they so desired making this argument practically a moot point. A good example of how long firearms last is the Mosin Nagant M1895 double action revolver invented in Soviet Russia. These handguns can still be found on the surplus market, this is a handgun that's been around for 118 years that still functions to this day! Friend Said: Buying from the surplus market would be illegal if the further sale is illegal. Take the guns when the owner dies as well. Should be a lower amount of them sitting around in homes within a few generations. Okay, so we ban certain types of alcohol. You know, here in Utah the sale of alcohol that has an alcohol content of greater than 3.2% from being sold in commercial grocery stores. If you want to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels for example, you must go to a liqueur store to do so. Furthermore, restaurants, bars and other locations/venues that allow the purchase of said alcoholic beverages are prohibited from selling them before 11:30AM and no later than 1:00AM. Does this stop accidents caused by individuals whom are intoxicated? Does this prevent some of the more shady establishments from selling alcohol outside the legal time limits? No they don't, I hear about people getting drunk all the time and doing stupid things all the time, both of legal and illegal drinking age. Friend Said: This doesn't make any sense. The point you made was that banning alcohol just ended up in al capone. my counter point is that only banning a small minority of alcohols (equivalent to banning a small portion of guns and very few people use guns to begin with) would not end up in al capone. My point was not that banning some kinds of alcohol removes the danger from all kinds of alcohol. To stop the horrors involved with crimes that are committed while being intoxicated you would have to ban Alcohol in its entirety, but society won't accept that, after all, what gives the government the right to say that I don't need alcohol in my life. That's like saying you and me are too irresponsible to be trusted with such a dangerous beverage. We wouldn't want to risk other peoples safety based on what we MIGHT do while being intoxicated right? Friend Said: We tried this and it was prohibition, it didn't work, because everyone loves alcohol. Not everyone loves semi automatic guns and there isn't enough people who use them and would care about them enough to keep using them though they were illegal to cause a prohibtion esque flagrant disregard and counter productive view of the law. knives bombs etc Friend Said: I don't really think there's any conclusive evidence that people who can't let out their anger by shooting people will instead build bombs and commit much worse atrocities. There is nothing "Easy" about this problem, Friend Said: Moving a mountain is easier than draining the sea; I didn't say easy I said easier. bombs explosives etc Friend Said: Again, I don't really think there's any evidence that guns are a convenient buffer keeping people from using more damaging bombs to commit terrorism. And again, just because there are things that people can do to do more damage it doesn't mean everything less dangerous should automatically be legal because of it. Friend Said: Most of these psychos kill themselves during the act. They don't care about the consequence. tl;dr No you'd think that the crazy kid would find the non semi auto guns and use those to do his crime with, and because of the slower nature of the guns, a few more people might get away with their lives and the only consequence is a small group of gun aficionados don't get to have quite as much fun on the firing range. Again, guns are an equalizer and a tool for the law abiding, a weapon and tool for chaos and anarchy for those who are not. Friend Said: Statistically, most fatal home invasions occur when someone escalates the situation by trying to defend themselves with a gun against the criminal invading. You're actually better off being undefended unless you value your tv more than your life.