The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Muzzleloading semi-auto/full auto concepts.

Bill Akins · September 20, 2011, 10:59 PM

That is a great idea Akumabito. It solves several problems.

1. It allows unneeded pressure/force to dissipate without a toggle/locomotive wheel type of linkage.

2. It allows just about any grain powder charge the chamber of the cylinder can take to be used.

I like it!

I just have several concerns.

My first concern is this:

The entire valve area and the gas trap area itself has to be able to be easily disassembled for cleaning. Because although some black powder substitutes are much less fouling than black powder, they still have a degree of fouling as does even modern smokeless powder. So easy disassembly for cleaning has to be considered. Here's what I'm thinking....

In keeping with simply having an add on gas tube and hammer, (with minimal internal mods to the lockwork so that the hammer stays back while the trigger is still depressed).......so that except for that lockwork change the muzzleloading revolver stays unmodified, we have to find a way to secure the gas tube over the top of the barrel without modifying the revolver. There are several ways we could do that. One way would be to only use a target sighted 1858 Remington revolver. So that we can utilize the dovetail slots cut into the top of the frame and barrel (for the target style sights)....and by removing those sights, use those dovetail slots to tap a gas tube sideways onto the top of the revolver.

Another way would be that since the 1858 Remington revolver has an 8 sided (octagon) shaped barrel, that we have octagon shaped rings (like a scope ring) attached to the gas tube that then are clamped to the barrel in two locations and the rammer notched slightly to accommodate them. That version could be used for standard 1858 Remington revolvers that do not have the target sight dovetails. My only fear about that version, is that unless the octagon rings were VERY secure, that the whole gas tube assembly MIGHT blow forward on the barrel. But with your gas pressure relief holes in the front of your adjustable gas relief valve, that might not be a concern.

Anyway....HOWEVER we do it, it is a given that we first have to attach the gas tube to the revolver in such a way as it doesn't permanently modify the revolver in that attachment.

Now since your adjustable valve needs to be able to be easily disassembled for cleaning, we have to be able to do that without removing the entire gas tube assembly from the revolver. So I am thinking of something like this.....

Since the gas trap is roughly a short "L" shaped piece extending downward from the upper gas tube to be in front of the barrel's muzzle, how about we make that "L" shaped gas trap piece where it completely unscrews from the rest of the gas tube proper while the rest of the gas tube stays attached to the revolver. Then from the back or front of that removed gas trap, we can also unscrew the entire self adjusting gas valve assembly for easy cleaning.
Or alternately, we don't have to actually remove the gas trap since that could be cleaned with a larger diameter brush than the barrel uses.....and instead of removing the entire gas trap, we are able to simply remove the adjustable plug you showed in your rendering to be able to remove the entire gas valve for cleaning. Would that plug you have at the very front of the gas tube allow for the complete removal of the gas valve and spring for easy cleaning? If it does, problem solved with cleaning the valve and the gas trap could be integral with the gas tube and not have to removed. That would also enable the gas trap to fit OVER the end of the barrel since it wouldn't have to be unscrewed from the gas tube.

But I am still wondering if perhaps the gas trap SHOULD be able to be unscrewed from the rest of the gas tube. Because....if it can't be, then how do we fit that gas trap OVER the end of the barrel while trying to attach the gas tube into dovetail slots sideways? See what I mean? If the gas trap fits OVER the end of the barrel, then we can't gently tap the dovetails built into the gas tube into the dovetail sight slots on the top of the frame and barrel. In that case if the gas tube DID fit OVER The end of the barrel, our only option of attaching the gas tube to the revolver would be with the octagon rings I mentioned earlier.

Could you render up something showing the best of the above keeping in mind that if the gas trap goes OVER the muzzle rather than just in front of it, that it probably could not then be unscrewed from the main gas tube and also we couldn't utilize existing target sight dovetails?

My second concern is this:

Your self adjusting gas valve would be great for trapping just the necessary required gas amount and force to cock the hammer. So that solves the force problem. But what about the SPEED of what is now a decreased gas force? I am wondering if we need to be concerned with that speed even though the brute force is controlled and diminished? Or do you think I am overly concerned and that the piston return spring would resist and slow the speed of the piston down enough to prevent the hammer cocking at too high a speed? Actually it's not the hammer cocking at too high a speed that is really my concern, it is the pawl attached to the hammer that engages the ratchet on the back of the cylinder that concerns me, being operated at a higher speed than it was designed for. I am also concerned that with a high speed, that the bolt that locks the cylinder would not have time to drop into place before the cylinder's slot over traveled that bolt. Might have to increase the bolt spring's tension, which would also increase the trigger tension since they are two tines of the same spring. Or even possibly make them separate tines not attached to each other in one spring. Anyway, the gas force would now be lessened, but the SPEED still concerns me.

The reason I attached the piston to the hammer earlier was because of the toggle/locomotive wheel type of linkage. But if we didn't use the toggle/locomotive wheel linkage, and instead used your self adjusting gas valve (which I like better) there would be no reason to attach the hammer to the piston. Then the hammer's added upward projection would simply always rest (when hammer down) against the rear of the piston and since there wouldn't be any air space between the piston and the hammer's upward projection, there would be no slamming effect. The piston would just always remain in contact with the (modified) hammer, and push the hammer back just like this C96 Broomhandle Mauser's bolt pushes the hammer back with no slamming effect.....

We could still have a nice little area on the back of the piston looking like a luger toggle grip, or we could just have a square or round section on the pistons rear always resting against the projection on the hammer. Like on the Broomhandle or Nambu. Not only would it look good, but it would add an extra margin of safety in case the piston rod ever broke and flew rearward. It also would allow you to either cock the hammer as normally with the thumb, or you could grasp the luger looking or Broomhandle looking or Nambu looking piece on the end of the piston and draw that to the rear thus cocking the hammer too.

.

September 20, 2011, 10:59 PM	#122
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	That is a great idea Akumabito. It solves several problems. 1. It allows unneeded pressure/force to dissipate without a toggle/locomotive wheel type of linkage. 2. It allows just about any grain powder charge the chamber of the cylinder can take to be used. I like it! I just have several concerns. My first concern is this: The entire valve area and the gas trap area itself has to be able to be easily disassembled for cleaning. Because although some black powder substitutes are much less fouling than black powder, they still have a degree of fouling as does even modern smokeless powder. So easy disassembly for cleaning has to be considered. Here's what I'm thinking.... In keeping with simply having an add on gas tube and hammer, (with minimal internal mods to the lockwork so that the hammer stays back while the trigger is still depressed).......so that except for that lockwork change the muzzleloading revolver stays unmodified, we have to find a way to secure the gas tube over the top of the barrel without modifying the revolver. There are several ways we could do that. One way would be to only use a target sighted 1858 Remington revolver. So that we can utilize the dovetail slots cut into the top of the frame and barrel (for the target style sights)....and by removing those sights, use those dovetail slots to tap a gas tube sideways onto the top of the revolver. Another way would be that since the 1858 Remington revolver has an 8 sided (octagon) shaped barrel, that we have octagon shaped rings (like a scope ring) attached to the gas tube that then are clamped to the barrel in two locations and the rammer notched slightly to accommodate them. That version could be used for standard 1858 Remington revolvers that do not have the target sight dovetails. My only fear about that version, is that unless the octagon rings were VERY secure, that the whole gas tube assembly MIGHT blow forward on the barrel. But with your gas pressure relief holes in the front of your adjustable gas relief valve, that might not be a concern. Anyway....HOWEVER we do it, it is a given that we first have to attach the gas tube to the revolver in such a way as it doesn't permanently modify the revolver in that attachment. Now since your adjustable valve needs to be able to be easily disassembled for cleaning, we have to be able to do that without removing the entire gas tube assembly from the revolver. So I am thinking of something like this..... Since the gas trap is roughly a short "L" shaped piece extending downward from the upper gas tube to be in front of the barrel's muzzle, how about we make that "L" shaped gas trap piece where it completely unscrews from the rest of the gas tube proper while the rest of the gas tube stays attached to the revolver. Then from the back or front of that removed gas trap, we can also unscrew the entire self adjusting gas valve assembly for easy cleaning. Or alternately, we don't have to actually remove the gas trap since that could be cleaned with a larger diameter brush than the barrel uses.....and instead of removing the entire gas trap, we are able to simply remove the adjustable plug you showed in your rendering to be able to remove the entire gas valve for cleaning. Would that plug you have at the very front of the gas tube allow for the complete removal of the gas valve and spring for easy cleaning? If it does, problem solved with cleaning the valve and the gas trap could be integral with the gas tube and not have to removed. That would also enable the gas trap to fit OVER the end of the barrel since it wouldn't have to be unscrewed from the gas tube. But I am still wondering if perhaps the gas trap SHOULD be able to be unscrewed from the rest of the gas tube. Because....if it can't be, then how do we fit that gas trap OVER the end of the barrel while trying to attach the gas tube into dovetail slots sideways? See what I mean? If the gas trap fits OVER the end of the barrel, then we can't gently tap the dovetails built into the gas tube into the dovetail sight slots on the top of the frame and barrel. In that case if the gas tube DID fit OVER The end of the barrel, our only option of attaching the gas tube to the revolver would be with the octagon rings I mentioned earlier. Could you render up something showing the best of the above keeping in mind that if the gas trap goes OVER the muzzle rather than just in front of it, that it probably could not then be unscrewed from the main gas tube and also we couldn't utilize existing target sight dovetails? My second concern is this: Your self adjusting gas valve would be great for trapping just the necessary required gas amount and force to cock the hammer. So that solves the force problem. But what about the SPEED of what is now a decreased gas force? I am wondering if we need to be concerned with that speed even though the brute force is controlled and diminished? Or do you think I am overly concerned and that the piston return spring would resist and slow the speed of the piston down enough to prevent the hammer cocking at too high a speed? Actually it's not the hammer cocking at too high a speed that is really my concern, it is the pawl attached to the hammer that engages the ratchet on the back of the cylinder that concerns me, being operated at a higher speed than it was designed for. I am also concerned that with a high speed, that the bolt that locks the cylinder would not have time to drop into place before the cylinder's slot over traveled that bolt. Might have to increase the bolt spring's tension, which would also increase the trigger tension since they are two tines of the same spring. Or even possibly make them separate tines not attached to each other in one spring. Anyway, the gas force would now be lessened, but the SPEED still concerns me. The reason I attached the piston to the hammer earlier was because of the toggle/locomotive wheel type of linkage. But if we didn't use the toggle/locomotive wheel linkage, and instead used your self adjusting gas valve (which I like better) there would be no reason to attach the hammer to the piston. Then the hammer's added upward projection would simply always rest (when hammer down) against the rear of the piston and since there wouldn't be any air space between the piston and the hammer's upward projection, there would be no slamming effect. The piston would just always remain in contact with the (modified) hammer, and push the hammer back just like this C96 Broomhandle Mauser's bolt pushes the hammer back with no slamming effect..... We could still have a nice little area on the back of the piston looking like a luger toggle grip, or we could just have a square or round section on the pistons rear always resting against the projection on the hammer. Like on the Broomhandle or Nambu. Not only would it look good, but it would add an extra margin of safety in case the piston rod ever broke and flew rearward. It also would allow you to either cock the hammer as normally with the thumb, or you could grasp the luger looking or Broomhandle looking or Nambu looking piece on the end of the piston and draw that to the rear thus cocking the hammer too. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target". Last edited by Bill Akins; September 20, 2011 at 11:18 PM.