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Metellus · March 1, 2005, 11:37 PM

I do but I thought it was perfectly legal in Virginia.

The big signs in post offices reference:

a) Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
b) Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)

The CFR is not LAW it is a bunch of federal regulations that can not supercede law. (That's like saying your Code of Conduct at work is above the law not true). And the in the big scary sign they show part of the law but don't bother to list the exceptions. One the exceptions happens to be

I live in Virginia and I know of no such virginia law that bans post office carry. If you read after the following section what is VA restriction it seems the post office concealed carry is up to the state. I don't see post office listed below:

=================================================
1) No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit. NOTE: only concealed handguns are prohibited - openly carried handguns are allowed
2) Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited
3) Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held unless you have "good and sufficient reason" [hah I have no idea what that means]
4) Courthouse
5) School property/school functions unless gun is unloaded, in an enclosed container (but NOT in the glove box or console) and in the vehicle. A car's trunk is considered an enclosed container.
6) Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC90-10-50). Violation is a trespass charge [I guess VCU hates you]
7) Non-secure areas of airport terminals are off limits unless you are a passenger and you have your gun unloaded, in a locked container in your checked luggage, and declare the gun at the check-in counter
=====================================================

A member from Arkansas said he couldn't bring his weapon to the post office but that might be because Arkansas prohibits firearms in "(17) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law"

The post office law in question seems to say that you can't do it unless the state allows you to. So doesn't look like Arkansas allows it but Virginia does does.

Whoever posted that scary post office sign link should have read further on in the gun zone that explains what that sign means. Then again this is all internet advice so who knows.

SCARY Post office Sign
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-1508.html

ANALYSIS OF Post office sign (copied below)
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

----------------------------------------------------------
It is no secret that lots of wrong information on firearms laws is propagated by the Internet and by word of mouth. In my experience, one of the most prevalent myths is that it is a federal offense to carry a firearm in a United States Post Office even if you have a permit or license to carry. As a general proposition, this is simply not the case. While state law or carry permit restrictions may prohibit carry in a Post Office, I have yet to locate a federal law that actually criminalizes such conduct where state law and permit regulations allow it.

The statute tossed out in support of the proposition that carry in a post office is illegal is 18 U.S.C. § 930. This statute is also cited in posters typically displayed in federal facilities giving notice that carrying firearms in the facility is a crime. The posters do not even mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns.

Here are the relevant sections of the law:

Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
In order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the "lawful carrying of firearms." This means you cannot be a "prohibited person" such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law.

It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. If, for example, it is illegal under state law to carry a firearm in a post office, the exception in section (d) (3) of 18 U.S.C. § 930 offers you no protection. The same is true about any local regulations or restrictions on the terms of your carry permit. In other words, if state or local law, or the terms of your carry permit, prohibit carry in a post office, then such carry is not "lawful," and the exception to the ban on carrying in federal facilities does not apply to you.

The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception.

A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions:

Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office?
Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office?
Am I violating the terms of my CCW permit by carrying inside a post office?
Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility?
If one answers "no" to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the "lawful carrying" of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying "incident to ... lawful purposes."

It is important to note that the term "Federal facility" does not include a federal court facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statute, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm.

Anyone with verifiable information about a CCW permit holder who was prosecuted for violation of 18 U.S.C. § 930 (or any other federal law), and who was also not allegedly committing, or attempting to commit, a crime (other than illegal firearm possession), should contact The Gun Zone or the author and provide details.

Addendum
The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link):

39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property:

(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following:

(p) Penalties and other law.

(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.

In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law)", which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility.

In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility.

Disclaimer: The discussion above is not legal advice. It cannot, and does not purport to, apply to any individual's specific situation. If you have questions about whether your specific conduct is legal, consult a qualified, local attorney familiar with laws regulating firearms. You should also obtain specific information from the government agencies responsible for issuing firearm licenses and/or regulating firearm possession in your location. The author and The Gun Zone assume no responsibility for any actions taken in reliance on the information in this discussion.

March 1, 2005, 11:37 PM	#14
Metellus Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 156	I think you can... I do but I thought it was perfectly legal in Virginia. The big signs in post offices reference: a) Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities b) Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) The CFR is not LAW it is a bunch of federal regulations that can not supercede law. (That's like saying your Code of Conduct at work is above the law not true). And the in the big scary sign they show part of the law but don't bother to list the exceptions. One the exceptions happens to be I live in Virginia and I know of no such virginia law that bans post office carry. If you read after the following section what is VA restriction it seems the post office concealed carry is up to the state. I don't see post office listed below: ================================================= 1) No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit. NOTE: only concealed handguns are prohibited - openly carried handguns are allowed 2) Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited 3) Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held unless you have "good and sufficient reason" [hah I have no idea what that means] 4) Courthouse 5) School property/school functions unless gun is unloaded, in an enclosed container (but NOT in the glove box or console) and in the vehicle. A car's trunk is considered an enclosed container. 6) Virginia Commonwealth University (8VAC90-10-50). Violation is a trespass charge [I guess VCU hates you] 7) Non-secure areas of airport terminals are off limits unless you are a passenger and you have your gun unloaded, in a locked container in your checked luggage, and declare the gun at the check-in counter ===================================================== A member from Arkansas said he couldn't bring his weapon to the post office but that might be because Arkansas prohibits firearms in "(17) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law" The post office law in question seems to say that you can't do it unless the state allows you to. So doesn't look like Arkansas allows it but Virginia does does. Whoever posted that scary post office sign link should have read further on in the gun zone that explains what that sign means. Then again this is all internet advice so who knows. SCARY Post office Sign http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-1508.html ANALYSIS OF Post office sign (copied below) http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html ---------------------------------------------------------- It is no secret that lots of wrong information on firearms laws is propagated by the Internet and by word of mouth. In my experience, one of the most prevalent myths is that it is a federal offense to carry a firearm in a United States Post Office even if you have a permit or license to carry. As a general proposition, this is simply not the case. While state law or carry permit restrictions may prohibit carry in a Post Office, I have yet to locate a federal law that actually criminalizes such conduct where state law and permit regulations allow it. The statute tossed out in support of the proposition that carry in a post office is illegal is 18 U.S.C. § 930. This statute is also cited in posters typically displayed in federal facilities giving notice that carrying firearms in the facility is a crime. The posters do not even mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns. Here are the relevant sections of the law: Title 18, United States Code, Sec. 930. - Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both. Subsection (a) shall not apply to - the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes. In order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the "lawful carrying of firearms." This means you cannot be a "prohibited person" such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law. It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. If, for example, it is illegal under state law to carry a firearm in a post office, the exception in section (d) (3) of 18 U.S.C. § 930 offers you no protection. The same is true about any local regulations or restrictions on the terms of your carry permit. In other words, if state or local law, or the terms of your carry permit, prohibit carry in a post office, then such carry is not "lawful," and the exception to the ban on carrying in federal facilities does not apply to you. The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception. A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions: Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office? Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office? Am I violating the terms of my CCW permit by carrying inside a post office? Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility? If one answers "no" to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the "lawful carrying" of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying "incident to ... lawful purposes." It is important to note that the term "Federal facility" does not include a federal court facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statute, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm. Anyone with verifiable information about a CCW permit holder who was prosecuted for violation of 18 U.S.C. § 930 (or any other federal law), and who was also not allegedly committing, or attempting to commit, a crime (other than illegal firearm possession), should contact The Gun Zone or the author and provide details. Addendum The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link): 39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property: (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following: (p) Penalties and other law. (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated. Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law. In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law)", which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility. In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility. Disclaimer: The discussion above is not legal advice. It cannot, and does not purport to, apply to any individual's specific situation. If you have questions about whether your specific conduct is legal, consult a qualified, local attorney familiar with laws regulating firearms. You should also obtain specific information from the government agencies responsible for issuing firearm licenses and/or regulating firearm possession in your location. The author and The Gun Zone assume no responsibility for any actions taken in reliance on the information in this discussion. Last edited by Metellus; March 2, 2005 at 12:15 AM.