The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - There is no Martial Arts that Guarranty it is Very Effective in Self Defense.

Skorzeny · February 28, 2000, 09:52 AM

I am getting really tired of this misperception, but a BJJ stylist may or may not go to the ground in a real street encounter.

For NHB competitions and sports Jiu-Jitsu competitions, obviously takedowns and ground techniques are emphasized since these are the areas in which the presumable opponents (strikers) are deficient in.

For street self-defense, however, there is a range of throws and standup submissions in BJJ. One goes to the ground, sometimes, not because one wants to, but because one is FORCED to. Anyone who has been in lots of street fights and claims that he's never been taken down is either lying or an olympic-level wrestler. One can scream all day that one will never be taken down with superior striking or combat or balance skills, but the reality of fights is that many will go to the ground where if one does not know good ground skills, one will be beaten up seriously. Why not worry about not getting killed by one guy before one starts worrying about the second attacker?

It's interesting that people point out a handful of safety precautions in NHB events to deny the usefulness of NHB events as "labs" for testing fighting styles (mainly because their styles don't succeed). True, eye-gouging and fish-hooking are not allowed in any NHB events (some do allow strikes to the groin or neck), but if one suggests that his or her "system" can ONLY be effective IF AND ONLY IF eye-gouging and fish-hooking are allowed, then that system is "hanging on a pretty thin wire" so to speak.

So far, NHB events have been the only venue to simulate reality of a street fight. They are quite realistic (if not quite "real" street fights) and have helped demonstrate the ineffectiveness of many systems and arts. If someone is not satisfied, then show me a viable alternative. Practicing the one-blow death-touch on cooperating static opponents at schools or dojos may impress amateurs, but real professionals know that without dynamic, uncooperative, unpredictable, full-force training, one will never really learn to deal with how people really move in real fights. And, one cannot train dynamically AND RELATIVELY SAFELY at the same time without having a few precautions like no eye-gouging and no fish-hooking.

I have an interesting story to relate, by the way, about eye-gouging. Rickson Gracie, the Gracie family champ, was giving a seminar one time and a supposed "ground fighting" expert showed up to "spar" with Rickson. Now, this "expert" has been claiming that eye-gouging and other "dirty" techniques made ground grappling obsolete. Well, while they were sparring, the guy tried to eye-gouge Rickson a couple of times to get out of a bad position. Rickson, being in superior position through his superior grappling skills, simply slapped the attempts away and then applied a submission which made it impossible for the guy to even tap to submit. The "expert" who showed up to defeat Rickson through "dangerous, barred techniques" had to apologize verbally before Rickson let him go.

Eye-gouging and other "easy-to-learn, effective" techniques are all great and dandy, but in a fast and furious moving fight, it's very difficult to connect such a small target AND if you are in an inferior position on the ground, it is next to impossible to pull them off (actually, you often end up giving the guy in the superior position the idea to use those techniques since it is safer and easier for him).

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

February 28, 2000, 09:52 AM	#54
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	I am getting really tired of this misperception, but a BJJ stylist may or may not go to the ground in a real street encounter. For NHB competitions and sports Jiu-Jitsu competitions, obviously takedowns and ground techniques are emphasized since these are the areas in which the presumable opponents (strikers) are deficient in. For street self-defense, however, there is a range of throws and standup submissions in BJJ. One goes to the ground, sometimes, not because one wants to, but because one is FORCED to. Anyone who has been in lots of street fights and claims that he's never been taken down is either lying or an olympic-level wrestler. One can scream all day that one will never be taken down with superior striking or combat or balance skills, but the reality of fights is that many will go to the ground where if one does not know good ground skills, one will be beaten up seriously. Why not worry about not getting killed by one guy before one starts worrying about the second attacker? It's interesting that people point out a handful of safety precautions in NHB events to deny the usefulness of NHB events as "labs" for testing fighting styles (mainly because their styles don't succeed). True, eye-gouging and fish-hooking are not allowed in any NHB events (some do allow strikes to the groin or neck), but if one suggests that his or her "system" can ONLY be effective IF AND ONLY IF eye-gouging and fish-hooking are allowed, then that system is "hanging on a pretty thin wire" so to speak. So far, NHB events have been the only venue to simulate reality of a street fight. They are quite realistic (if not quite "real" street fights) and have helped demonstrate the ineffectiveness of many systems and arts. If someone is not satisfied, then show me a viable alternative. Practicing the one-blow death-touch on cooperating static opponents at schools or dojos may impress amateurs, but real professionals know that without dynamic, uncooperative, unpredictable, full-force training, one will never really learn to deal with how people really move in real fights. And, one cannot train dynamically AND RELATIVELY SAFELY at the same time without having a few precautions like no eye-gouging and no fish-hooking. I have an interesting story to relate, by the way, about eye-gouging. Rickson Gracie, the Gracie family champ, was giving a seminar one time and a supposed "ground fighting" expert showed up to "spar" with Rickson. Now, this "expert" has been claiming that eye-gouging and other "dirty" techniques made ground grappling obsolete. Well, while they were sparring, the guy tried to eye-gouge Rickson a couple of times to get out of a bad position. Rickson, being in superior position through his superior grappling skills, simply slapped the attempts away and then applied a submission which made it impossible for the guy to even tap to submit. The "expert" who showed up to defeat Rickson through "dangerous, barred techniques" had to apologize verbally before Rickson let him go. Eye-gouging and other "easy-to-learn, effective" techniques are all great and dandy, but in a fast and furious moving fight, it's very difficult to connect such a small target AND if you are in an inferior position on the ground, it is next to impossible to pull them off (actually, you often end up giving the guy in the superior position the idea to use those techniques since it is safer and easier for him). Skorzeny ------------------ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu