View Single Post
Old November 30, 2009, 02:22 AM   #64
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
Sorry cptsplashdown, you're just completely off base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...In specific response, the NFA weapon was not illegally possessed, which you just can't seem to wrap your head around....
What you can't seem to get your head around is that it's your responsibility to show that the NFA weapon was legally possessed. What you can't seem to understand is that it is prima facie illegally possessed unless it has been properly registered. Registration is an affirmative defense and thus your burden to demonstrate. That's simply what the law is, whether you like or understand it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...Many people MAY be breaking the law at the range,...
Perhaps, but unless their violations are open or there is otherwise a reason to believe they are violating the law, there's nothing to do.

But on the other hand, openly having an NFA weapon in your possession is, on its face, illegal. It is only legal if you have properly registered it, and that is not something that is obvious. Your proper registration is something that you must show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...it is in all probability legally improper for a local LEO or RO (at a public range) to ask for your papers anyway,...
It is legal for the RO to ask you anything he wants. It is legal for him to ask you the most personal or embarrassing questions you can think of. He may not be entitled to an answer, but he can ask. And it would be within his discretion to eject you from the range. (Whether you'd have grounds for a civil suit depends on the exact situation. And it's also possible that the range itself had rules about possession of NFA weapons and a need for the user to show compliance with federal and/or state law. We don't know if that is the case here, but it's something I would certainly recommend to range management if NFA weapons were allowed.)

And it would be entirely proper for an LEO to arrest you if you could not show, with proper documentation, that your possession of the NFA weapon was lawful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...in the same manner that not all LEOs are allowed to ask for immigration documentation, even from people that they are quite certain are breaking the law....
An LEO doesn't have to be "quite certain" one is breaking the law. He only needs probable cause, i. e., a reasonable belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...You are not committing a crime simply by being in possession of an NFA firearm, so long as it is registered,....
But your open possession of an NFA weapon is probable cause to arrest you unless you can show that you indeed are in lawful possession. The fact that you may have properly registered the weapon is not obvious, and an LEO has no obligation to assume that it has been properly registered. You will need to demonstrate that it has been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...You are certainly not entitled to arrest someone for NOT breaking the law,...
But an LEO is entitled to arrest someone who reasonably appears to be breaking the law. Again, that's what probable cause means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptsplashdown
...We all live in the real world,...
Really? JohnKSa and I (as well as perhaps some others) have repeatedly and in detail explained why you are wrong. I think John may have a law enforcement background, but I'm not positive. In any case, I know from reading his posts over the years that he understands the law and how it works.

I understand the law and how it works because I'm a lawyer and have practiced law for over 30 years.

You might want to consider, given what JohnKSa and I have written, that there are perhaps some things about the law and how it works that you don't understand.
Frank Ettin is offline  
 
Page generated in 0.02916 seconds with 8 queries