The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Less-Lethal Devices

jgcoastie · September 24, 2009, 08:57 PM

Okay, my reason for conducting this poll is simple: Not all situations justify the use of lethal force.

It looks like well over half of those who participated either rarely or never carry a less-lethal device. This is your choice and I am in no way trying to force you to carry a can of pepper spray, an expandable baton, or taser. I would like to bring up a few scenarios and things to ponder...

1. You must frequent a location that does not allow concealed handguns. It could be a school, store, bank, workplace, sports stadium, etc. I know that many of you will say "I refuse to go places that don't allow CC and that's that." Well that's fine, but not always feasible for all people, so keep those comments to yourself please. Having a concealed, less-lethal weapon could be a life-saver in such a location.

2. You are walking your dog in your neighborhood (You have your concealed handgun, but also a can of pepper spray.) and another dog attacks your dog. In many jurisdictions this would not justify the employment of lethal force, not to mention that shooting the attacking dog could result in you injuring/killing your own dog and possibly a bystander due to the likelihood of ricochets off of concrete/asphalt. You don't want to risk being attacked by the dog yourself by gettin in there and separating the two. That can of pepper spray could easily dispatch the attacking canine, allowing you and your pet to vacate the area and call animal control. Yes, you will likely spray your dog in the process, but the stuff washes off a lot easier than a gunshot wound.

3. You, for whatever reason, forget to bring your situational awareness that day. A bum approaches you in a parking lot/gas station/etc. and will not leave you alone. He places hands on you in a slightly aggressive manner. You don't want to risk drawing your weapon given the closeness of the encounter, the possibility of him disarming you, and you also doubt whether or not lethal force is needed to end the threat. You draw your expandable baton instead and strike the meaty portion of his thighs a few times to get him off of you. Then you call 911. You have risked minimal criminal/civil legal liability as you did not threaten/use deadly force. You write your statement, spend an hour or two answering questions with your lawyer present and go home to your wife and children with minimal/no physical injury. And, added benefit: you do not have to deal with any of the legal/financial/emotional repercussions associated with the aftermath of using deadly force.

Now I know there will be those chest-thumpers who will say "Oh, well none of that stuff will happen to me because I wouldn't put myself in those situations, etc etc etc...." Good for you, but just because you won't put yourself in one of these situations does not mean you won't wind up in a situation similar or even completely different than the few I listed. You can't be in control of everything, Murphy's Law is always in effect. I think it would be a wise decision to have a defensive option other than lethal force.

If you only give someone a hammer, pretty soon every problem they encounter will look like a nail. I know you have more than a hammer sitting by your workbench in the garage, you have many tools to complete different tasks. Likewise, you should (IMHO) have more tools in your defensive toolbox than lethal force alone. Namely because not every situation requires a lethal hammer to get the job done (end the threat)...

Regards,
JG

September 24, 2009, 08:57 PM	#23
jgcoastie Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 2,118	Okay, my reason for conducting this poll is simple: Not all situations justify the use of lethal force. It looks like well over half of those who participated either rarely or never carry a less-lethal device. This is your choice and I am in no way trying to force you to carry a can of pepper spray, an expandable baton, or taser. I would like to bring up a few scenarios and things to ponder... 1. You must frequent a location that does not allow concealed handguns. It could be a school, store, bank, workplace, sports stadium, etc. I know that many of you will say "I refuse to go places that don't allow CC and that's that." Well that's fine, but not always feasible for all people, so keep those comments to yourself please. Having a concealed, less-lethal weapon could be a life-saver in such a location. 2. You are walking your dog in your neighborhood (You have your concealed handgun, but also a can of pepper spray.) and another dog attacks your dog. In many jurisdictions this would not justify the employment of lethal force, not to mention that shooting the attacking dog could result in you injuring/killing your own dog and possibly a bystander due to the likelihood of ricochets off of concrete/asphalt. You don't want to risk being attacked by the dog yourself by gettin in there and separating the two. That can of pepper spray could easily dispatch the attacking canine, allowing you and your pet to vacate the area and call animal control. Yes, you will likely spray your dog in the process, but the stuff washes off a lot easier than a gunshot wound. 3. You, for whatever reason, forget to bring your situational awareness that day. A bum approaches you in a parking lot/gas station/etc. and will not leave you alone. He places hands on you in a slightly aggressive manner. You don't want to risk drawing your weapon given the closeness of the encounter, the possibility of him disarming you, and you also doubt whether or not lethal force is needed to end the threat. You draw your expandable baton instead and strike the meaty portion of his thighs a few times to get him off of you. Then you call 911. You have risked minimal criminal/civil legal liability as you did not threaten/use deadly force. You write your statement, spend an hour or two answering questions with your lawyer present and go home to your wife and children with minimal/no physical injury. And, added benefit: you do not have to deal with any of the legal/financial/emotional repercussions associated with the aftermath of using deadly force. Now I know there will be those chest-thumpers who will say "Oh, well none of that stuff will happen to me because I wouldn't put myself in those situations, etc etc etc...." Good for you, but just because you won't put yourself in one of these situations does not mean you won't wind up in a situation similar or even completely different than the few I listed. You can't be in control of everything, Murphy's Law is always in effect. I think it would be a wise decision to have a defensive option other than lethal force. If you only give someone a hammer, pretty soon every problem they encounter will look like a nail. I know you have more than a hammer sitting by your workbench in the garage, you have many tools to complete different tasks. Likewise, you should (IMHO) have more tools in your defensive toolbox than lethal force alone. Namely because not every situation requires a lethal hammer to get the job done (end the threat)... Regards, JG __________________ "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.