The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - interpreting Box O' Truth: the "best" home-defense round

anonimoose · November 19, 2011, 01:31 PM

Shooters,

ISSUE

I realize this may be one of those un-resolveable "AR vs. AK", "9mm vs. 40SW vs. .45ACP" or "Mossberg vs. Remington" debates, but I'd like to discuss the best home-defense round*.

BACKGROUND

The consensus on TFL seems to be that in a home defense setting, a miss with a pistol presents a greater risk to people in the next room/home than a miss with a shotgun or rifle. The errant pistol caliber round stays intact and penetrates more walls, whereas errant buckshot or frangible rifle caliber rounds will slow down/get stopped more readily.

Though the good folks at the Box O' Truth are often called to testify as expert witnesses in the court of internet opinion, the results are a Rorschach test, and folks see what they want to see. For the shotgun advocates, the fact that 00 or #1 Buck only penetrated 6-8 sheets is proof positive that a good pump-action will devastate the bad guy without hitting their loved ones in the next room. The rifle guys will cite evidence that the .223/5.56x45mm round fragmented and tumbled even as the 9x19mm round remained intact and continued punching through the test walls. The pistol shooters say, what are you talking about? In two separate Boxes O' Truth, the pistol and caliber rounds performed equally -- they both punched through 12 layers of sheetrock and four insulated/improved test walls.

SCENARIOS

May I suggest that we're looking for a simplistic, one-size-fits-all answer, when really, there's no one "perfect" solution? Even if the TFL consensus is that "pistol caliber rounds represent a greater risk of over-penetration", how do you balance that against the conventional wisdom of "shotgun: very close range, pistol: close range, rifle: long range"? Wouldn't you be more worried about errant shots from a rifle? I'm reminded of the story I read on TFL (tried searching for it without any luck) of those youngsters who were plinking with their AR at some sort of backyard/country range -- they ended up hitting some spectators at a local high school football game over a kilometer away.

Let's discuss three hypothetical scenarios at three ranges. Let's assume the bad guy is 10 meters away, standing in front of a wall. Let's say you hit him -- best scenario, right? But can the round over-penetrate his body and keep going into the next room? Worse, what if you miss? The round will ultimately stop somewhere -- but how? And at what range?

Scenario #1: You hit the bad guy at 10 meters away. Does the round keep going?

Scenario #2: You miss the bad guy and the round ultimately travels through multiple walls before stopping. This would be the case of a bad guy standing in front of the master bedroom wall, with the missed round traveling into the home -- so it hits the master bedroom wall, but then it goes into the bathroom behind that, and then the children's bedroom behind that (at 25 meters), and then travels down the block to your neighbor's home (at 100 meters).

Scenario #3: You miss the bad guy and the round travels through just one or two walls before traveling some distance and ultimately stopping. This would be the case of a bad guy standing in front of a master bedroom wall, but this time, the missed round travels out of the home -- so it hits the master bedroom wall which also serves as an exterior wall, and the round leaves your home and travels down the block to your neighbor's home (again, at 100 meters).

DISCUSSION

Having established the background and the scenarios, my questions are highlighted in red below. Would appreciate the collective wisdom, experience and insight represented here at TFL.

What happens after the round has traveled 10 meters?

SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY:
- #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds
- 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound
- 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws, and creates a bigger wound channel

SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS:
- Not applicable here since we're only at 10 meters

SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS:
- Not applicable here since we're only at 10 meters

What happens after the round has traveled 25 meters?

SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY:
- #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds, but then that's it, right? They won't over-penetrate another 15 meters past the body up to the full 25 meters?
- 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound, and likely remains in the bad guy.
- 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws and creates a bigger wound channel but then may exit the body and continue moving another 15 meters? Or does that only happen with .223 FMJ, and not frangible rounds?

SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS:
- #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, which then penetrate the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but are they traveling fast enough to wound/kill? According to Box O' Truth, probably yes.
- 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but is it still traveling fast enough to wound/kill? According to Box O' Truth, probably yes.[COLOR="red"]
- 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, starts fragmenting/yawing, but still has enough energy to penetrate the bathroom and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters. But it's tumbling at all sorts of weird angles/trajectories -- is it enough to wound/kill?

SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS:
- Not applicable here since the neighbor's home is 100 meters away

What happens after the round has traveled 100 meters?

SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY:
- #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds, but then that's it, right? They won't over-penetrate another 90 meters past the body?
- 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound, and likely remains in the bad guy.
- 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws and creates a bigger wound channel in his body, but may exit the body and continue moving another 90 meters? Is that possible?

SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS:
- #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but are they then stopped by that last exterior wall before traveling another 75 meters down the block to the next home?
- 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, then the last exterior wall (Box O' Truth says 12 layers of sheetrock!), then travels another 75 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but how much energy does it have at that point? Can it still wound/kill?
- 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then starts fragmenting/yawing, but still has enough energy to penetrate the bathroom, the children's bedroom at 25 meters, then the last exterior wall, then it travels another 75 meters down the block to the neighbors home -- will it get there, or will there be so much fragmentation and yawing that it won't wound/kill?

SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS:
- #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters and travel another 90 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but at this point, do they still have enough energy to penetrate that home's exterior wall and wound/kill?
- 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters, then travels another 90 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but at this point, does it still have enough energy to penetrate that home's exterior wall and wound/kill? Perhaps more so than the shotgun, but isn't there a reason why the pistol is considered a short range weapon?
- 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters, starts fragmenting/yawing, then travels another 90 meters towards the neighbor's house -- and it still has enough energy to wound/kill, right?

CONCLUSION

As the discussion above demonstrates, I believe that analyzing the home-defense round's performance at different ranges (10, 25 and 100 meters) adds a new perspective to the consensus that a miss with a pistol round represents a greater danger than a miss with a rifle round. I believe you could argue that a miss with the rifle round -- depending on the path, trajectory and distance -- could hypothetically place an innocent bystander in the next room/home at a greater risk than a missed pistol round.

*And of course, we're only talking about home-defense rounds, not home-defense weapons. Even if the 00 or #1 buck is the ultimate home-defense round, the shotgun may not be the most appropriate home-defense weapon for certain individuals. Moreover, we didn't even consider pistol caliber carbines, whose longer barrels enable pistol rounds to reach out and touch someone at an even greater distance.

Thus, it seems, as in all things firearms, there is no singular "right" or "perfect" answer -- and nearly everything is a compromise.

Respectfully,
Moose

November 19, 2011, 01:31 PM	#1
anonimoose Member Join Date: June 25, 2008 Posts: 72	interpreting Box O' Truth: the "best" home-defense round Shooters, ISSUE I realize this may be one of those un-resolveable "AR vs. AK", "9mm vs. 40SW vs. .45ACP" or "Mossberg vs. Remington" debates, but I'd like to discuss the best home-defense round. BACKGROUND* The consensus on TFL seems to be that in a home defense setting, a miss with a pistol presents a greater risk to people in the next room/home than a miss with a shotgun or rifle. The errant pistol caliber round stays intact and penetrates more walls, whereas errant buckshot or frangible rifle caliber rounds will slow down/get stopped more readily. Though the good folks at the Box O' Truth are often called to testify as expert witnesses in the court of internet opinion, the results are a Rorschach test, and folks see what they want to see. For the shotgun advocates, the fact that 00 or #1 Buck only penetrated 6-8 sheets is proof positive that a good pump-action will devastate the bad guy without hitting their loved ones in the next room. The rifle guys will cite evidence that the .223/5.56x45mm round fragmented and tumbled even as the 9x19mm round remained intact and continued punching through the test walls. The pistol shooters say, what are you talking about? In two separate Boxes O' Truth, the pistol and caliber rounds performed equally -- they both punched through 12 layers of sheetrock and four insulated/improved test walls. SCENARIOS May I suggest that we're looking for a simplistic, one-size-fits-all answer, when really, there's no one "perfect" solution? Even if the TFL consensus is that "pistol caliber rounds represent a greater risk of over-penetration", how do you balance that against the conventional wisdom of "shotgun: very close range, pistol: close range, rifle: long range"? Wouldn't you be more worried about errant shots from a rifle? I'm reminded of the story I read on TFL (tried searching for it without any luck) of those youngsters who were plinking with their AR at some sort of backyard/country range -- they ended up hitting some spectators at a local high school football game over a kilometer away. Let's discuss three hypothetical scenarios at three ranges. Let's assume the bad guy is 10 meters away, standing in front of a wall. Let's say you hit him -- best scenario, right? But can the round over-penetrate his body and keep going into the next room? Worse, what if you miss? The round will ultimately stop somewhere -- but how? And at what range? Scenario #1: You hit the bad guy at 10 meters away. Does the round keep going? Scenario #2: You miss the bad guy and the round ultimately travels through multiple walls before stopping. This would be the case of a bad guy standing in front of the master bedroom wall, with the missed round traveling into the home -- so it hits the master bedroom wall, but then it goes into the bathroom behind that, and then the children's bedroom behind that (at 25 meters), and then travels down the block to your neighbor's home (at 100 meters). Scenario #3: You miss the bad guy and the round travels through just one or two walls before traveling some distance and ultimately stopping. This would be the case of a bad guy standing in front of a master bedroom wall, but this time, the missed round travels out of the home -- so it hits the master bedroom wall which also serves as an exterior wall, and the round leaves your home and travels down the block to your neighbor's home (again, at 100 meters). DISCUSSION Having established the background and the scenarios, my questions are highlighted in red below. Would appreciate the collective wisdom, experience and insight represented here at TFL. What happens after the round has traveled 10 meters? SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY: - #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds - 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound - 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws, and creates a bigger wound channel SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS: - Not applicable here since we're only at 10 meters SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS: - Not applicable here since we're only at 10 meters What happens after the round has traveled 25 meters? SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY: - #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds, but then that's it, right? They won't over-penetrate another 15 meters past the body up to the full 25 meters? - 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound, and likely remains in the bad guy. - 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws and creates a bigger wound channel but then may exit the body and continue moving another 15 meters? Or does that only happen with .223 FMJ, and not frangible rounds? SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS: - #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, which then penetrate the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but are they traveling fast enough to wound/kill? According to Box O' Truth, probably yes. - 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but is it still traveling fast enough to wound/kill? According to Box O' Truth, probably yes.[COLOR="red"] - 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, starts fragmenting/yawing, but still has enough energy to penetrate the bathroom and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters. But it's tumbling at all sorts of weird angles/trajectories -- is it enough to wound/kill? SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS: - Not applicable here since the neighbor's home is 100 meters away What happens after the round has traveled 100 meters? SCENARIO #1: HITS BAD GUY: - #1 Buckshot pellets hit the bad guy at 10 meters, create multiple, significant wounds, but then that's it, right? They won't over-penetrate another 90 meters past the body? - 9x19mm JHP round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, creates a decent wound, and likely remains in the bad guy. - 5.56x45mm frangible round hits the bad guy at 10 meters, fragments/yaws and creates a bigger wound channel in his body, but may exit the body and continue moving another 90 meters? Is that possible? SCENARIO #2: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS LOTS OF WALLS: - #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, and then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, but are they then stopped by that last exterior wall before traveling another 75 meters down the block to the next home? - 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then the bathroom, then the children's bedroom at 25 meters, then the last exterior wall (Box O' Truth says 12 layers of sheetrock!), then travels another 75 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but how much energy does it have at that point? Can it still wound/kill? - 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom wall at 10 meters, then starts fragmenting/yawing, but still has enough energy to penetrate the bathroom, the children's bedroom at 25 meters, then the last exterior wall, then it travels another 75 meters down the block to the neighbors home -- will it get there, or will there be so much fragmentation and yawing that it won't wound/kill? SCENARIO #3: MISSES BAD GUY, HITS JUST ONE OR TWO WALLS: - #1 Buckshot pellets miss the bad guy and instead penetrate the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters and travel another 90 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but at this point, do they still have enough energy to penetrate that home's exterior wall and wound/kill? - 9x19mm JHP round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters, then travels another 90 meters down the block to the neighbor's home -- but at this point, does it still have enough energy to penetrate that home's exterior wall and wound/kill? Perhaps more so than the shotgun, but isn't there a reason why the pistol is considered a short range weapon? - 5.56x45mm frangible round misses the bad guy and instead penetrates the master bedroom/exterior wall at 10 meters, starts fragmenting/yawing, then travels another 90 meters towards the neighbor's house -- and it still has enough energy to wound/kill, right? CONCLUSION As the discussion above demonstrates, I believe that analyzing the home-defense round's performance at different ranges (10, 25 and 100 meters) adds a new perspective to the consensus that a miss with a pistol round represents a greater danger than a miss with a rifle round. I believe you could argue that a miss with the rifle round -- depending on the path, trajectory and distance -- could hypothetically place an innocent bystander in the next room/home at a greater risk than a missed pistol round. And of course, we're only talking about home-defense rounds, not home-defense weapons*. Even if the 00 or #1 buck is the ultimate home-defense round, the shotgun may not be the most appropriate home-defense weapon for certain individuals. Moreover, we didn't even consider pistol caliber carbines, whose longer barrels enable pistol rounds to reach out and touch someone at an even greater distance. Thus, it seems, as in all things firearms, there is no singular "right" or "perfect" answer -- and nearly everything is a compromise. Respectfully, Moose