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leadcounsel · September 9, 2005, 12:59 PM

The most helpful safe buying info I've ever found on the net.

http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_005.htm

I'm getting a 35 cu ft. safe with 90 minutes fire protection from ceramic and wool blankets, with 7 gauge hardened steel and commercial grade combo lock for $1850 delivered! IT's much more heavy duty than any liberty safe and much less expensive.

As it was explained by their safe expert Steve at Study.... A few high points:

Fire proofing:

The fireboard is simply not as effective as ceramic wool and glass blankets that Sturdy uses. As others have pointed out on other posts, fireboard has a high moisture content and when it gets hot it releases moisture to retard the fire. So, your guns and papers may not burn, but they'll be soaked in the sauna inside the safe until you can open it, which may not be for hours or days (remember your plastic dial will be melted away and you may need a locksmith to open it. even if your dial isn't plastic, the firemen won't let you near the safe until it's completely safe and everything is cooled down).

The UL fireproof "rating" is not very realistic. They cook the safes for exactly 30 minutes, 45 minutes, or 90 minutes and then immedaitely hose them off until they are cool and then openned immediately to cool the interior. The safes pass this "test" but it's not very realistic, mainly because in a total burn down the temps will exceed 1200 degrees AND the fire may burn longer than 30/60/90 minutes AND safe won't always be hosed off immediately. The interior of the safe may well reach unacceptable temps and REMAIN there for some time.

Per Liberties site: "Liberty safes are tested and certified by Omega Point Laboratories, an independent, nationally recognized company which conducts fire tests simulating home fire conditions. In an Omega Point fire test the furnace temperature builds to 1200°F, typical home fire intensity, in ten minutes and is maintained there, exposing the safe to the full heat and intensity of a simulated home fire during the test. The test is over when one of the nine computer monitored temperature probes inside the safe rises 275°F above the ambient temperature - paper chars at 402°F . The results are a rating that is a real measure of a safe’s fire endurance under conditions simulating a house fire, not just a factory test. Simply put, Liberty safes are built to pass a rigorous, realistic, fire test. That’s why a Liberty Safe with a 45 minute Omega Point fire rating can achieve a one hour and twenty-nine minute rating when a competitve fire testing method is used. For more information on fire testing, visit Omega Point Laboratories at www.opl.com or Underwriters Laboratories at www.ul.com. CAUTION: All safes are susceptible to heat and fire damage when exposed to high enough temperatures for extended periods of time. Thus, no safe is actually “fire proof,” only fire resistant."

Sturdy uses different testing methods that accurately reflect REAL fires. Using ceramic and wool makes the safe significantly more fire resistant at 2300 degrees (rather than the less realistic 1200 degrees), no moisture from the heat, and reduces the weight of the safe by around 10% or more, making it easier to move and less expensive to ship. Just bolt it to the floor for burglary protection.

From Sturdy: Sturdy Fire Safes are made with a first layer of heavy steel (7 or 8 gage). The second layer consists of a 2300 deg. U.L. listed ceramic wool. The third layer is a U.L. listed 1000 deg. glass blanket. The fourth layer consists an inside sealed steel liner. Which compresses the two insulating blankets to a total thickness of two inches or more throughout the safe.

Check out the total burndown at www.sturdysafe.com under firesafes. This guy's papers and plastic gun box and ammo were all fine after he lost everything in a total burndown.

Liberty uses thin steel. I bet yours is 10 or maybe 12 gage. You can punch through it with a screwdriver or a fireax rather easily and peel it open like a tin can with a crowbar and an axe. My Sturdy safe is 7 gage, which is significantly thicker. It would require significant effort to punch through it with any common implements and you wouldn't be able to peel the metal away.

You asked if "Sargent & Greenleaf Group II are cheap? What is considered high quality? LaGard and Mosler locks can be compromised with auto-dialers." Sturdy uses Sargent & Greenleaf also, but there are several grades. I bet your safe has a residential grade. Sturdy uses the commercial grade with is significantly stronger and more durable. Per Sturdy: "All combination boxes used on gun safes today are made of a pot metal-type alloy. STURDY GUN SAFE'S combination tongue (dead-bolt) is made of solid brass which makes it 30 to 40 times stronger than the cast pot metal deadbolts. Sturdy does not rely on the strength of the pot metal combination box for the needed strength. Instead, Sturdy Safe installs a combination deadbolt reinforcement. This makes the combination box even stronger than it's dead bolt. It also helps protect the lock system from undue force and helps eliminate the need for shear pins and clutches inside the door, which are responsible for most accidental lock-outs. Be sure the combination box has a deadbolt reinforcement in the safe you buy. STURDY GUN SAFE uses a commercial grade Sargent & Greenleaf combination box. Most gun safe manufacturers use a S & G combination box made for residential use which is not made for a heavy-duty application. Unfortunately, the average consumer cannot differentiate between the two. Therefore it is important to know that the heavy-duty Sargent & Greenleaf commercial combination box model number is "6730"."

As far as warranty, Sturdy offers repair or replacement after fire or burglary for 20 years. The door has exterior pins and is also removable for easy transportation so the whole safe doesn't need to be shipped (no, a burglar cannot remove the door, nor would removing the pins do any good when it's locked). The others offer warranties, but what good is a warranty if you safe has FAILED to protect your stuff from fire or theft?

Liberty, Cannon, Sentry, etc. all cut corners by using cheap fireboard (what is it about $10-20 a 4x8 sheet?) and thin metal and residential grade locks, spend money on advertising rather than production. It's probably fine for your stuff and for light duty fire protection and unsophisicated burglars, but for the same or less money you could buy a Sturdy safe with thicker steel, commercial lock, and REAL fire protection.

September 9, 2005, 12:59 PM	#55
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Sturdy's are better than the mainstream The most helpful safe buying info I've ever found on the net. http://www.sturdysafe.com/sturdy_005.htm I'm getting a 35 cu ft. safe with 90 minutes fire protection from ceramic and wool blankets, with 7 gauge hardened steel and commercial grade combo lock for $1850 delivered! IT's much more heavy duty than any liberty safe and much less expensive. As it was explained by their safe expert Steve at Study.... A few high points: Fire proofing: The fireboard is simply not as effective as ceramic wool and glass blankets that Sturdy uses. As others have pointed out on other posts, fireboard has a high moisture content and when it gets hot it releases moisture to retard the fire. So, your guns and papers may not burn, but they'll be soaked in the sauna inside the safe until you can open it, which may not be for hours or days (remember your plastic dial will be melted away and you may need a locksmith to open it. even if your dial isn't plastic, the firemen won't let you near the safe until it's completely safe and everything is cooled down). The UL fireproof "rating" is not very realistic. They cook the safes for exactly 30 minutes, 45 minutes, or 90 minutes and then immedaitely hose them off until they are cool and then openned immediately to cool the interior. The safes pass this "test" but it's not very realistic, mainly because in a total burn down the temps will exceed 1200 degrees AND the fire may burn longer than 30/60/90 minutes AND safe won't always be hosed off immediately. The interior of the safe may well reach unacceptable temps and REMAIN there for some time. Per Liberties site: "Liberty safes are tested and certified by Omega Point Laboratories, an independent, nationally recognized company which conducts fire tests simulating home fire conditions. In an Omega Point fire test the furnace temperature builds to 1200°F, typical home fire intensity, in ten minutes and is maintained there, exposing the safe to the full heat and intensity of a simulated home fire during the test. The test is over when one of the nine computer monitored temperature probes inside the safe rises 275°F above the ambient temperature - paper chars at 402°F . The results are a rating that is a real measure of a safe’s fire endurance under conditions simulating a house fire, not just a factory test. Simply put, Liberty safes are built to pass a rigorous, realistic, fire test. That’s why a Liberty Safe with a 45 minute Omega Point fire rating can achieve a one hour and twenty-nine minute rating when a competitve fire testing method is used. For more information on fire testing, visit Omega Point Laboratories at www.opl.com or Underwriters Laboratories at www.ul.com. CAUTION: All safes are susceptible to heat and fire damage when exposed to high enough temperatures for extended periods of time. Thus, no safe is actually “fire proof,” only fire resistant." Sturdy uses different testing methods that accurately reflect REAL fires. Using ceramic and wool makes the safe significantly more fire resistant at 2300 degrees (rather than the less realistic 1200 degrees), no moisture from the heat, and reduces the weight of the safe by around 10% or more, making it easier to move and less expensive to ship. Just bolt it to the floor for burglary protection. From Sturdy: Sturdy Fire Safes are made with a first layer of heavy steel (7 or 8 gage). The second layer consists of a 2300 deg. U.L. listed ceramic wool. The third layer is a U.L. listed 1000 deg. glass blanket. The fourth layer consists an inside sealed steel liner. Which compresses the two insulating blankets to a total thickness of two inches or more throughout the safe. Check out the total burndown at www.sturdysafe.com under firesafes. This guy's papers and plastic gun box and ammo were all fine after he lost everything in a total burndown. Liberty uses thin steel. I bet yours is 10 or maybe 12 gage. You can punch through it with a screwdriver or a fireax rather easily and peel it open like a tin can with a crowbar and an axe. My Sturdy safe is 7 gage, which is significantly thicker. It would require significant effort to punch through it with any common implements and you wouldn't be able to peel the metal away. You asked if "Sargent & Greenleaf Group II are cheap? What is considered high quality? LaGard and Mosler locks can be compromised with auto-dialers." Sturdy uses Sargent & Greenleaf also, but there are several grades. I bet your safe has a residential grade. Sturdy uses the commercial grade with is significantly stronger and more durable. Per Sturdy: "All combination boxes used on gun safes today are made of a pot metal-type alloy. STURDY GUN SAFE'S combination tongue (dead-bolt) is made of solid brass which makes it 30 to 40 times stronger than the cast pot metal deadbolts. Sturdy does not rely on the strength of the pot metal combination box for the needed strength. Instead, Sturdy Safe installs a combination deadbolt reinforcement. This makes the combination box even stronger than it's dead bolt. It also helps protect the lock system from undue force and helps eliminate the need for shear pins and clutches inside the door, which are responsible for most accidental lock-outs. Be sure the combination box has a deadbolt reinforcement in the safe you buy. STURDY GUN SAFE uses a commercial grade Sargent & Greenleaf combination box. Most gun safe manufacturers use a S & G combination box made for residential use which is not made for a heavy-duty application. Unfortunately, the average consumer cannot differentiate between the two. Therefore it is important to know that the heavy-duty Sargent & Greenleaf commercial combination box model number is "6730"." As far as warranty, Sturdy offers repair or replacement after fire or burglary for 20 years. The door has exterior pins and is also removable for easy transportation so the whole safe doesn't need to be shipped (no, a burglar cannot remove the door, nor would removing the pins do any good when it's locked). The others offer warranties, but what good is a warranty if you safe has FAILED to protect your stuff from fire or theft? Liberty, Cannon, Sentry, etc. all cut corners by using cheap fireboard (what is it about $10-20 a 4x8 sheet?) and thin metal and residential grade locks, spend money on advertising rather than production. It's probably fine for your stuff and for light duty fire protection and unsophisicated burglars, but for the same or less money you could buy a Sturdy safe with thicker steel, commercial lock, and REAL fire protection. Last edited by leadcounsel; September 9, 2005 at 04:47 PM.