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Old December 27, 2008, 08:23 PM   #22
Jim March
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Join Date: February 14, 1999
Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA
Posts: 7,417
Quote:
Those words are the beliefs that our founding fathers had. That man has God given or natural rights that are not the governments to give or take.
Just to clarify: the radical implication of this section of the Declaration is that rights DO NOT come from any man or government. That was a break from Europe, where you had whatever rights the crown said you had.

Back then, the only alternative source of rights they could think of was (a?) God.

Today, another alternative source exists: our rights come from what we are as intelligent beings and have their basis in our biology. In this view, our rights are protected by the social structures we build, and embryonic forms of this can be seen among animals. If you don't think a pack of wolves know about property rights fr'instance, go try and take away their dead caribou or whatever. Many species all the way back to ants and bees do collective self defense...etc. And it's very clear all of our ancestors going back at least 10 million years were pack animals same as the great apes today.

I say this because I once had an argument with a modern-day "patriot" over whether or not an athiest could have a proper appreciation for the US system of government.
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