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**Mike Irwin** · January 28, 2013, 07:36 AM

Well, I spent the better part of my Sunday going through a lot of material trying to find the references that noted that ballistic gel was developed to emulate the average mean density of all tissue in the body and.... nothing.

I know I read a treatise on that years ago, but I don't know where anymore.

That said, I reiterate that the use of ballistic gelatin WITHOUT bone, bone simulant, bone through the nose, whatever, provides the single most reliable and realistic indicator of what happens when a particular bullet hits the human body.

That's been seen time and time again in comparison of testing data to actual shootings, and the only thing that casting bone or bone simulant into a block of gelatin does is... skew the results.

Bone simulant has been available for at least 40 years, real bone even longer. One really has to wonder why bone or bone simulant is not used in any of the industry or forensice protocols.

Actually, one doesn't have to wonder that.

It skews the results from what is seen in actual shootings, which means that its value as a testing medium... isn't valuable at all.

Martin Fackler is a medical doctor, combat surgeon, and has probably seen more wounds caused by actual projectiles that the rest of us combined.

One would think that, give the availability of bone simulant in the 1980s when the gelatin testing protocols were being developed that, if it offered anything of value, it would have been included in the standardized testing regime.

The fact that it wasn't should be a pretty good indicator of what value it might bring.

And yes, Mr. Mortimer. People do have skeletons. They just don't have exoskeletons, as Brasscatcher's tests would seem to indicate.

Even more interestingly, your quote from Fackler is particularly interesting because it appears to fly in the face of what Brasscatcher's "found" in their "testing."

And, you know, I just had another thought, too...

There's no indication of how brasscatchers prepared the bone simulant. Did they use it dry?

Living bone contains a significant quantity of water. Think about that.

January 28, 2013, 07:36 AM	#34
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Well, I spent the better part of my Sunday going through a lot of material trying to find the references that noted that ballistic gel was developed to emulate the average mean density of all tissue in the body and.... nothing. I know I read a treatise on that years ago, but I don't know where anymore. That said, I reiterate that the use of ballistic gelatin WITHOUT bone, bone simulant, bone through the nose, whatever, provides the single most reliable and realistic indicator of what happens when a particular bullet hits the human body. That's been seen time and time again in comparison of testing data to actual shootings, and the only thing that casting bone or bone simulant into a block of gelatin does is... skew the results. Bone simulant has been available for at least 40 years, real bone even longer. One really has to wonder why bone or bone simulant is not used in any of the industry or forensice protocols. Actually, one doesn't have to wonder that. It skews the results from what is seen in actual shootings, which means that its value as a testing medium... isn't valuable at all. Martin Fackler is a medical doctor, combat surgeon, and has probably seen more wounds caused by actual projectiles that the rest of us combined. One would think that, give the availability of bone simulant in the 1980s when the gelatin testing protocols were being developed that, if it offered anything of value, it would have been included in the standardized testing regime. The fact that it wasn't should be a pretty good indicator of what value it might bring. And yes, Mr. Mortimer. People do have skeletons. They just don't have exoskeletons, as Brasscatcher's tests would seem to indicate. Even more interestingly, your quote from Fackler is particularly interesting because it appears to fly in the face of what Brasscatcher's "found" in their "testing." And, you know, I just had another thought, too... There's no indication of how brasscatchers prepared the bone simulant. Did they use it dry? Living bone contains a significant quantity of water. Think about that. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. Last edited by Mike Irwin; January 28, 2013 at 07:49 AM.