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Johnny Guest · June 5, 2006, 02:20 AM

Yes, the TSMG is heavy. Small Arms of the World, Smith & Smith, lists the M1928A1 as weighing 10.75 pounds, and the M1 and M1A1 at 10.45. My '28 with horizontal forearm, Kerr sling, and loaded 50-round drum runs near 14 pounds.

I read most of this thread before attending a submachine gun match last Saturday and tried to make some objective observations that would prove of value. Unfortunately, I was the only one shooting a TSMG in the contest, so my observation of others was limited to one man with an M1A1 and two guys shooting my gun and one other, after the match was over.

If you examine the images posted by mec, it is clear that the line of the bore is well above the buttplate of the guns. The drop at the heel of the stock is pretty extreme, and it can be seen that, given the low pivot point, the tendency is for the muzzle to rise under heavy recoil. The substantial weight of the gun reduces the felt recoil effect greatly, so there is little "kick" felt by the shooter. At the same time, there is a fair amount of energy being expended. The shooter really contributes to the muzzle rise thusly: As he fires, he holds the foregrip tightly, trying to control the muzzle rise. The muzzle does indeed rise somewhat but the weight of the weapon is not allowed to hold it down, because the the shooter is actually holding it UP. When the next round fires, the muzzle rises a bit more, and so forth with suceeding shots.

A 1921 or 1928 with a Cutts Compensator is fairly easy to control, because a portion on the muzzle blast is redirected upward, forcing the muzzle downward. Even the uncompensated guns, such as am M1A1 with a 30 round magazine, is heavy enough to sty fairly level, IF the foreend is not held in a death grip, and gravity is allowed to hold down the gun. Decades ago, I learned from Bill Toney, Border Patrol firearms instructor, that a TSMG is easily controled by resting the foreend or magazine on the open palm, and restricting bursts to five or six rounds. The gun just bounces up and down a bit but settles between shots. With sufficient practice, it is no great trick to take down five or six bowling pins, spaced a couple of feet apart, with one long burst, at about 25 feet.

My neice weighs about 110, and she has no trouble shooting a compensated M1928 with a Type XX magazine.

Of course, the gun looks a bit smaller when the shooter is six-five and 250 or so.

Speaking of slow rates of fire, I've never had the pleasure of shooting an M3 grease gun, but I'm impressed with how gentle and sedate a Sten Gun can be. And I fired a Swedish Carl Gustav M45 on Saturday. SMOTW shows it weighs 9.25 pouinds with 36 rounds loaded. Same reference indicates rate of fire as 550 to 600 RPM, but I doubt this particular gun ran over 450. Firing it was a hoot!

June 5, 2006, 02:20 AM	#20
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Personal impressions Yes, the TSMG is heavy. Small Arms of the World, Smith & Smith, lists the M1928A1 as weighing 10.75 pounds, and the M1 and M1A1 at 10.45. My '28 with horizontal forearm, Kerr sling, and loaded 50-round drum runs near 14 pounds. I read most of this thread before attending a submachine gun match last Saturday and tried to make some objective observations that would prove of value. Unfortunately, I was the only one shooting a TSMG in the contest, so my observation of others was limited to one man with an M1A1 and two guys shooting my gun and one other, after the match was over. If you examine the images posted by mec, it is clear that the line of the bore is well above the buttplate of the guns. The drop at the heel of the stock is pretty extreme, and it can be seen that, given the low pivot point, the tendency is for the muzzle to rise under heavy recoil. The substantial weight of the gun reduces the felt recoil effect greatly, so there is little "kick" felt by the shooter. At the same time, there is a fair amount of energy being expended. The shooter really contributes to the muzzle rise thusly: As he fires, he holds the foregrip tightly, trying to control the muzzle rise. The muzzle does indeed rise somewhat but the weight of the weapon is not allowed to hold it down, because the the shooter is actually holding it UP. When the next round fires, the muzzle rises a bit more, and so forth with suceeding shots. A 1921 or 1928 with a Cutts Compensator is fairly easy to control, because a portion on the muzzle blast is redirected upward, forcing the muzzle downward. Even the uncompensated guns, such as am M1A1 with a 30 round magazine, is heavy enough to sty fairly level, IF the foreend is not held in a death grip, and gravity is allowed to hold down the gun. Decades ago, I learned from Bill Toney, Border Patrol firearms instructor, that a TSMG is easily controled by resting the foreend or magazine on the open palm, and restricting bursts to five or six rounds. The gun just bounces up and down a bit but settles between shots. With sufficient practice, it is no great trick to take down five or six bowling pins, spaced a couple of feet apart, with one long burst, at about 25 feet. My neice weighs about 110, and she has no trouble shooting a compensated M1928 with a Type XX magazine. Of course, the gun looks a bit smaller when the shooter is six-five and 250 or so. Speaking of slow rates of fire, I've never had the pleasure of shooting an M3 grease gun, but I'm impressed with how gentle and sedate a Sten Gun can be. And I fired a Swedish Carl Gustav M45 on Saturday. SMOTW shows it weighs 9.25 pouinds with 36 rounds loaded. Same reference indicates rate of fire as 550 to 600 RPM, but I doubt this particular gun ran over 450. Firing it was a hoot!