The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - There is no Martial Arts that Guarranty it is Very Effective in Self Defense.

fubsy · February 11, 2000, 09:11 PM

skorzeny,
I thought I was pretty clear but apparently not....How long have you been in training? How long has your wife trained?, I wont even ask about Mr. Gracie. My point was and is most people will not dedicate the time necessary to become proficient. You disagree? How long does it take for someone in grappling to become proficient in self defense? Im not against grappling be it bjj, or shoote fighting or any thing that gives you an edge, period.
""Fubsy:
Lets see... Where to start...

"""First of all, have you ever seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at work (not just on TV, but with your own eyes or maybe fight/spar against it)?""
.....Ok, My shoulder is healing from from my last go round but..do recommend someone in my area if you know of anyone and Ill go and check it out...I live near Inverness, fla.,...and I need a new place to workout and to learn new things.

""When you say Jiu-Jitsu, I wonder if you mean classical Japanese Jiu-Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? These two are a world apart. Frankly, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, because it is taught statically against a cooperating opponent, is extremely difficult to put into effect unless one has literally decades of training (like Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido)."""
.....No what we were working with was not bjj,...drawing a blank here....shoot, he's out of Clarksville Ky., he was one of the judges in the olympic judo in atlanta.....

BJJ is taught with both static, cooperative training AND full force, dynamic sparring, which allows you learn to deal with unexpected or strong (or both) momvements by your opponent.

My wife is that 110lbs. person with very little muscle. She used to know next to nothing about fighting before she started BJJ and now, she can choke, armbar, leglock and do all sorts of nasty things against guys who are 175-200lbs. and untrained in grappling. They are very baffled and amazed. One second, they are trying to strangulate her and the next second, their elbows are hyper-extended and ready to break. Or they think that they are on top of her, and the next second their knees and ankles are ready to break from a heel hook.

I myself weigh 175lbs. and I have sparred (everything allowed except eye gouging, fish hooking, biting and groin grabs) with "blackbelts" in all sorts of Karate systems, amateur boxers as well as wrestlers with much greater weight than me (225-250lbs.) and have submitted them handily. I can't really think of any other system that would let me do that against such well trained, bigger athletes in a relatively realistic context.

You've got to see it with your own eyes to believe it. I urge you to go down to the local BJJ school if you can find one, find someone other than a rank beginner (and somone who weighs much less than you) and say "that Jiu-Jitsu stuff doesn't work on me. I can just overpower you and smother you." I guarantee you that you will get a free opinion adjustment. You may feel pain, but you won't get hurt permanently, because the chances are, you will tap or submit (or pass out from the carotid choke).

Almost all of my fights during my youth did indeed go to the ground. This is one of the reasons why I started to look for a grappling art eons ago. I think that my experience mirros those of many others.

Sure boxers can throw elbows. That's like saying a TKD practitioner can also throw a punch. See what I mean? I don't think that pure boxers really know the most effective bio-mechanics of an elbow strike nor can he really throw it with effectiveness and accuracy, because he does not train in it. I know many Karate systems that teach elbows and knees, but I have almost never seen them use them in a real fight or even in sparring. Training statically in elbows and knees aren't going to help. You have to use them full force (naturally with protective gear) against a dynamic, moving opponent to learn how to apply them effectively.
.......sounds like you fight how you train..., One of the major concerns for me when i was looking to start back into was get realistic as I could, realizing that I still had to work that day. Im all for realistic training.

No Holds Barred events are excellent laboratories to see what works and what does not, depending on the rules (usually the less the better). They show what works in a mano-a-mano unarmed fight. Of course, multi-opponent and armed fights are different.

""""But if that is your argument against grappling, are you somehow suggesting that those systems which are ineffective in one-on-one fights (like most Karate systems, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, etc. etc. ad naseum) some how magically become effective against armed or multiple opponents?""""
.......oh, good heavens no..I simply see multiple opponents as a sincere problem for any system grappling or standing, I sort of like a spyderco clipt defense against grabs..My argument is not against grappling.....its providing something that will work with out a years of dedication, most people will not train.

"""I have been in fights with more than one person (and with weapons) and I can tell you that unless you are incredibly and extraordinarily skilled AND the opponents are completely clueless, you will get seriously injured (and I was). If you have to deal with multi-opponents and/or armed opponents, you find an equalizer. And that is not BJJ, Karate, Judo, boxing etc. etc. You get yourself a rock, a ruler, a knife, a stick, a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle."""""
....I think ive been saying that, about weapons from the start. Mr. Colt had it right.

""""If you think that any amount of boxing or Isshinryu Karate is going to get you out safely against four guys who are decently athletic or are armed with knives, stick or whatever, you either saw too many Steven Seagal movies to know what real fights are like. Then, it really doesn't matter how much I try to convince you, isn't it?"""
......thats good, and if I believed something so ignorant you would be right. I tend to tailor everything I do as realistically as I can make it....I never was one for tournaments with point fighting and all that mess, cause I think it gives you bad habits---I choose issinryu because the folks there were going at it real good, they were a small school that didnt advertise and had been in business appx 20 years or so at the time. Im not promoting isshinryu as an alternative, I dont think its the all to end all, it is a solid foundation to go from, and has been for me.....Im not saying that grappling isnt a good compliment or good base to other fighting styles, I pass up nothing that helps, I think it requires more training then most people will give it......thats my point. Im not arguing the high school equivalent of "my team's better than Yours"....I also dont necessarily think most folks unless they just have the desire are going to get into it all the time....but as we all kn0w -it does happen.
Ive enjoyed the thread, and if you can direct me to someone In this area I would appreciate it.
.............fubsy.

February 11, 2000, 09:11 PM	#32
fubsy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 1999 Posts: 1,363	skorzeny, I thought I was pretty clear but apparently not....How long have you been in training? How long has your wife trained?, I wont even ask about Mr. Gracie. My point was and is most people will not dedicate the time necessary to become proficient. You disagree? How long does it take for someone in grappling to become proficient in self defense? Im not against grappling be it bjj, or shoote fighting or any thing that gives you an edge, period. ""Fubsy: Lets see... Where to start... """First of all, have you ever seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at work (not just on TV, but with your own eyes or maybe fight/spar against it)?"" .....Ok, My shoulder is healing from from my last go round but..do recommend someone in my area if you know of anyone and Ill go and check it out...I live near Inverness, fla.,...and I need a new place to workout and to learn new things. ""When you say Jiu-Jitsu, I wonder if you mean classical Japanese Jiu-Jitsu or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? These two are a world apart. Frankly, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, because it is taught statically against a cooperating opponent, is extremely difficult to put into effect unless one has literally decades of training (like Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido).""" .....No what we were working with was not bjj,...drawing a blank here....shoot, he's out of Clarksville Ky., he was one of the judges in the olympic judo in atlanta..... BJJ is taught with both static, cooperative training AND full force, dynamic sparring, which allows you learn to deal with unexpected or strong (or both) momvements by your opponent. My wife is that 110lbs. person with very little muscle. She used to know next to nothing about fighting before she started BJJ and now, she can choke, armbar, leglock and do all sorts of nasty things against guys who are 175-200lbs. and untrained in grappling. They are very baffled and amazed. One second, they are trying to strangulate her and the next second, their elbows are hyper-extended and ready to break. Or they think that they are on top of her, and the next second their knees and ankles are ready to break from a heel hook. I myself weigh 175lbs. and I have sparred (everything allowed except eye gouging, fish hooking, biting and groin grabs) with "blackbelts" in all sorts of Karate systems, amateur boxers as well as wrestlers with much greater weight than me (225-250lbs.) and have submitted them handily. I can't really think of any other system that would let me do that against such well trained, bigger athletes in a relatively realistic context. You've got to see it with your own eyes to believe it. I urge you to go down to the local BJJ school if you can find one, find someone other than a rank beginner (and somone who weighs much less than you) and say "that Jiu-Jitsu stuff doesn't work on me. I can just overpower you and smother you." I guarantee you that you will get a free opinion adjustment. You may feel pain, but you won't get hurt permanently, because the chances are, you will tap or submit (or pass out from the carotid choke). Almost all of my fights during my youth did indeed go to the ground. This is one of the reasons why I started to look for a grappling art eons ago. I think that my experience mirros those of many others. Sure boxers can throw elbows. That's like saying a TKD practitioner can also throw a punch. See what I mean? I don't think that pure boxers really know the most effective bio-mechanics of an elbow strike nor can he really throw it with effectiveness and accuracy, because he does not train in it. I know many Karate systems that teach elbows and knees, but I have almost never seen them use them in a real fight or even in sparring. Training statically in elbows and knees aren't going to help. You have to use them full force (naturally with protective gear) against a dynamic, moving opponent to learn how to apply them effectively. .......sounds like you fight how you train..., One of the major concerns for me when i was looking to start back into was get realistic as I could, realizing that I still had to work that day. Im all for realistic training. No Holds Barred events are excellent laboratories to see what works and what does not, depending on the rules (usually the less the better). They show what works in a mano-a-mano unarmed fight. Of course, multi-opponent and armed fights are different. """"But if that is your argument against grappling, are you somehow suggesting that those systems which are ineffective in one-on-one fights (like most Karate systems, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, etc. etc. ad naseum) some how magically become effective against armed or multiple opponents?"""" .......oh, good heavens no..I simply see multiple opponents as a sincere problem for any system grappling or standing, I sort of like a spyderco clipt defense against grabs..My argument is not against grappling.....its providing something that will work with out a years of dedication, most people will not train. """I have been in fights with more than one person (and with weapons) and I can tell you that unless you are incredibly and extraordinarily skilled AND the opponents are completely clueless, you will get seriously injured (and I was). If you have to deal with multi-opponents and/or armed opponents, you find an equalizer. And that is not BJJ, Karate, Judo, boxing etc. etc. You get yourself a rock, a ruler, a knife, a stick, a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle.""""" ....I think ive been saying that, about weapons from the start. Mr. Colt had it right. """"If you think that any amount of boxing or Isshinryu Karate is going to get you out safely against four guys who are decently athletic or are armed with knives, stick or whatever, you either saw too many Steven Seagal movies to know what real fights are like. Then, it really doesn't matter how much I try to convince you, isn't it?""" ......thats good, and if I believed something so ignorant you would be right. I tend to tailor everything I do as realistically as I can make it....I never was one for tournaments with point fighting and all that mess, cause I think it gives you bad habits---I choose issinryu because the folks there were going at it real good, they were a small school that didnt advertise and had been in business appx 20 years or so at the time. Im not promoting isshinryu as an alternative, I dont think its the all to end all, it is a solid foundation to go from, and has been for me.....Im not saying that grappling isnt a good compliment or good base to other fighting styles, I pass up nothing that helps, I think it requires more training then most people will give it......thats my point. Im not arguing the high school equivalent of "my team's better than Yours"....I also dont necessarily think most folks unless they just have the desire are going to get into it all the time....but as we all kn0w -it does happen. Ive enjoyed the thread, and if you can direct me to someone In this area I would appreciate it. .............fubsy.