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Old October 20, 2013, 01:03 AM   #27
Frank Ettin
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Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
Since when does residence have anything to do with "possession"?...
???????????

Who said that it did?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...He left his firearms with his brother for safekeeping, and his brother has possession merely as an agent, not as an owner...
It doesn't matter why Brother #2 had possession. But he did have possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...There is no law that states that if I lend you a firearm the transfer has to occur through an FFL, or that another ffl transfer has to occur when the firearm is returned...
Actually the lending of firearms is specifically addressed in the federal law.

Let's look at the applicable statutes:
  1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
  2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest ..., and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    ..

You may go to another State where (under 18 USC 922(a)(5)) a friend may loan you a gun to, for example, go target shooting together, or an outfitter may rent you a gun for a guided hunt. But if you were to take the gun back to your home State with you, you would be violating 18 USC 922(a)(3), which has no "loan" exception, thus becoming eligible for five years in federal prison and a lifetime loss of gun rights. Since there is no loan" exception in 18 USC 922(a)(3), a load of a firearm may not cross state lines to the borrower's State of residence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...I read "transfer" as meaning transfer of ownership, and that has not occurred under the scenario presented--brother still claims to own the weapons....
How you read it is irrelevant. What matters is how a judge will read it.

And a judge will interpret the statute according to its plain meaning, absent precedent to the contrary. See Perrin v. United States, 444 U.S. 37 (United States Supreme Court, 1979), at 42:
Quote:
...A fundamental canon of statutory construction is that, unless otherwise defined, words will be interpreted as taking their ordinary, contemporary, common meaning...
I've provided definitions for "possession" and "transfer." And let's look at the statutes again:
  1. 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...
  2. And 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:
    Quote:
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

In 922(a)(3) the statute refers to transporting or receiving a firearm obtained -- words broader than ownership and consistent with possession. In 922(a)(5), the references to "transfer", "sell", "transport" and "deliver" are also consistent with possession and broader than ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...And Frank's literal interpretation would mean that if I move from state A, where I own firearms, I cannot take them with me when I mover to state B, and that is NOT the law...
Nonsense. If you're taking your guns with you you're retaining possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...It is lawful to transport firearms between your vacation home and your regular residence....
Again, you're retaining possession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
... Also notable is that 922 does not apply to loans of firearms...
Wrong. See my discussion of loans, above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62coltnavy
...He may also, in my view, give possession of the firearms to a a common carrier (e.g. moving company)....
Actually that's all covered in 18 USC 922(e) and 18 USC 922(f), which read as follows (emphasis added):
Quote:
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.
(f)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any common or contract carrier to transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of the provisions of this chapter.

(2) It shall be unlawful for any common or contract carrier to deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm.
....
Note that transportation and delivery by common carrier must still comply wit the other provisions of federal law, which would include 18 USC 922(a)(3) and 18 USC 922(a)(5).
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

Last edited by Frank Ettin; October 20, 2013 at 11:17 AM. Reason: correct typo
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