The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Hawken or Kentucky-more accurate?

Captchee · April 10, 2013, 03:43 PM

i would have to disagree Doc , very little of the modern , named hawklens have very little to do with actual Hawkens rifles . any similarities are rather remote and rather a stretch to consider .
now on the other hand if we say plains rifle , then we can find some similarities rifles , but again rather generic .
Frankly I don’t see anything wrong with that .
There is however some rather close production versions the Lyman GPR and the older CVA mountain , Browning and Remington models.. But even they are only close .
What IMO really muddies the water is the accepted Idea of a what a Hawkens made rifle was . Today all to many folks see a ½ stock rifle and they say hawkens . But the truth of the mater is that a vast majority are not Hawkens rifles

When it comes to the , Jukar ,CVA and traditions Kentucky’s . Imo their production version is rather lacking . I think that’s a given . However I also do not think that those same rifles in kit form were meant to simply be screwed together . However that’s how a lot , if not most were done .
However if one spend just alittle more time , they can have something somewhat more suitable .
that’s not to say they will get the fine lines of a properly made long rifle . But its will be much better .

Here is an example . Here is a CVA that a person put together back in the 1970’s .

now after taking near 1/4 inch off of everything . actually giving the rifle some lock mortises, defining the wrist area along with adding a late patch box , this is what comes out of it

To give folks some idea of just how much has been taken off , and you can see I could have even gone more, here is a photo of the joiner plate

So this brings us to the subject of what is a Kentucky . Is it Derick , Hains , Trimmel, Baun, Dimmrick …. for that mater any number of the long rifles made by the Hawkens brothers fathers or grandfathers ???/
All of which are different . Not to mention , what if we add in the later Leman full stocks .

So will a CVA , Traditions , Jukar , which are all much the same , ever be something near as wonderful as the originals made by the folks I previously mentioned . A resounding NO .
But are the ment to be ??? No I don’t think so . At least no more then a TC hawkens is ment to be anything like a true Hawkens rifle .
But they fit a market for people who want an entry level piece . Those who are looking for a truer reproduction wouldn’t consider such a rifle to begin with . The authenticity just isn’t there .

Now throw into the mix those of us that make and sell both accurate reproductions as well as fantasy guns .
Here is a J Baum that I just finished for a lady over in Oregon .
Would this be a Kentucky long rifle ?
I built it and would say NO .
the lines are there . the barrel profile is also documented to be used by J Baum . but the decoration is nothing like the original .

April 10, 2013, 03:43 PM	#16
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	i would have to disagree Doc , very little of the modern , named hawklens have very little to do with actual Hawkens rifles . any similarities are rather remote and rather a stretch to consider . now on the other hand if we say plains rifle , then we can find some similarities rifles , but again rather generic . Frankly I don’t see anything wrong with that . There is however some rather close production versions the Lyman GPR and the older CVA mountain , Browning and Remington models.. But even they are only close . What IMO really muddies the water is the accepted Idea of a what a Hawkens made rifle was . Today all to many folks see a ½ stock rifle and they say hawkens . But the truth of the mater is that a vast majority are not Hawkens rifles When it comes to the , Jukar ,CVA and traditions Kentucky’s . Imo their production version is rather lacking . I think that’s a given . However I also do not think that those same rifles in kit form were meant to simply be screwed together . However that’s how a lot , if not most were done . However if one spend just alittle more time , they can have something somewhat more suitable . that’s not to say they will get the fine lines of a properly made long rifle . But its will be much better . Here is an example . Here is a CVA that a person put together back in the 1970’s . now after taking near 1/4 inch off of everything . actually giving the rifle some lock mortises, defining the wrist area along with adding a late patch box , this is what comes out of it To give folks some idea of just how much has been taken off , and you can see I could have even gone more, here is a photo of the joiner plate So this brings us to the subject of what is a Kentucky . Is it Derick , Hains , Trimmel, Baun, Dimmrick …. for that mater any number of the long rifles made by the Hawkens brothers fathers or grandfathers ???/ All of which are different . Not to mention , what if we add in the later Leman full stocks . So will a CVA , Traditions , Jukar , which are all much the same , ever be something near as wonderful as the originals made by the folks I previously mentioned . A resounding NO . But are the ment to be ??? No I don’t think so . At least no more then a TC hawkens is ment to be anything like a true Hawkens rifle . But they fit a market for people who want an entry level piece . Those who are looking for a truer reproduction wouldn’t consider such a rifle to begin with . The authenticity just isn’t there . Now throw into the mix those of us that make and sell both accurate reproductions as well as fantasy guns . Here is a J Baum that I just finished for a lady over in Oregon . Would this be a Kentucky long rifle ? I built it and would say NO . the lines are there . the barrel profile is also documented to be used by J Baum . but the decoration is nothing like the original .