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Old July 9, 2012, 08:04 PM   #36
FrankenMauser
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Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,400
Quote:
so what it does is provide a uniform start pressure to help reduce the effect of variables such as powder type, trim length, primer type, case type etc. uniform start pressure. that's it. in lee's modern reloading volume 2 lee himself states it does not turn poorly made ammo or ammo made from substandard components into award winning, gold medal match winning ammo. it can HELP if used correctly. uniform start pressure.
You're ignoring Lee's own statements about the tool. The instructions and reloading manual both claim that the FCD will improve accuracy, durability (rough handling), and function; and is not only capable of forming a cannelure, but that a "firm" crimp is preferable.

Since the photos I posted show the results of what Lee, apparently, considers a "light" crimp, I'd hate to see what a "firm" crimp would be...
(Turning the die in to touch the shell holder, then 1/2 turn more is Lee's starting point with that die. For an even more "firm" crimp, the die must be turned in farther, according to the instructions.)


Quote:
frankenmauser you are way over doing it. your pic is what the collet looks like fully closed, i bet your ram was up when you took that pic. an open collet looks like this
Of course the ram was up. How are you supposed to screw the die in until it touches the shell holder, with the ram down?
You can't crimp a cartridge with the collet closed.....
Re-read what I wrote. That die was set up exactly per Lee's instructions, to illustrate what the tool will do when used exactly as designed and described. If you don't like the results, perhaps you should complain about the tool or Lee's sloppy tolerances, not the operator. If it is a faulty tool, I should not have to be the one performing Quality Control.
How would a new reloader know any better, if they've never seen a proper crimp before; yet this "wonder tool" that promises to fix all of their problems is crushing their bullets?


Quote:
it looks to me like you applied way too much pressure was applied to your die and cartridge and you mangled the brass and bullet. modern reloading 2 says approx 25 pounds of pressure, which is easy to get with any press. reloading is easy, there should be NOTHING forceful, if you are forcing it your doing it wrong. lee also says the fcd is CAPABLE of forming a cannelure, lee never says you SHOULD, especially one to that degree.
Don't make assumptions.
It only took about 10-15 lbs of pressure on the press handle, to crimp those. So, if your quote about 25 lbs is correct (I've never seen it), I'm well within tolerances.



Anyone with even the smallest amount of reloading experience can see that the photos Slamfire and I have posted are of bullets that have been severely over-crimped. But... they are not photos of "operator error". They are photos of what the tool does when used according to Lee's instructions and recommendations.
If you must use the tool the wrong way (not fully adjusted) to make it work, then the tool's design (or tolerances) must be questioned.

Just remember - I'm not trying to "debunk" the FCD's claims. I'm trying to figure out where it actually works (and why).



Right now, I have 150 rounds of .270 Win loaded with Sierra 130 gr SPBTs and 150 rounds of identical loads crimped in the FCD. There are 6 different test lots within the whole. Each test lot is comprised of a single lot of R-P brass, and each case within an individual lot received identical prep. Each lot has different characteristics to aid in testing different claims about the FCD's performance. All of the cartridges are using powder (IMR4350) and primers (Win LR) from the same lot numbers. Each test lot is loaded with the same powder charge increments. Each test lot is split in half -- half crimped, half uncrimped.

The test has been designed so a minimum of 50 rounds should be fired during any one test session; but each test lot can be fired on different days (in different atmospheric conditions) while still providing meaningful data, due to the inclusion of a 'baseline' in each lot. In addition, many of the tests can be cut short before the full 50 rounds is fired, if weather conditions turn poor, due to charge weight increments within the test lots.

In addition, I have plans to repeat the entire test with Remington Core-Lokts or Winchester Power-Points, after this round of testing is over. That will allow for comparison of cannelured bullets vs the previous no-cannelure testing.

When I have compiled enough data, I'll create a new thread for the discussion.
Claims being tested:
1. Provides consistent start pressure.
2. Will form a cannelure. {completed}
3. Improves accuracy.
4. Improves function. {completed}
5. Will never damage a case, when instructions are followed. {completed}
6. Bullets without a cannelure are more accurate with FCD than traditional crimp.
7. More durable cartridges. {rough handling complete - live-fire testing still required}
8. "Firm" crimp is more preferable than "light" crimp.
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