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Old September 21, 2012, 02:19 PM   #17
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,552
Quote:
I've owned the same model gun in LEM and DA/SA. Having gotten used to DA/SA, I don't see the need for LEM. The argument for it is that the trigger is consistent. The trigger on a DA/SA pistol is consistent. The first pull is consistently longer and heavier than the second. No but in seriousness the standard LEM, at roughly 7-8 lbs, seems silly to me as instead of dealing with a heavy and long trigger pull once, you're dealing with a long though mildly heavy pull every time. Folks say that, "well just release to the reset". You can do the same thing in DA/SA, and in DA/SA the reset is even shorter.
OK, you have to figure out what you are trying to accomplish here. When you think about it, the LEM isn't really all that different from the way the Glock trigger works. Just a longer takeup and thrown in a hammer. (Plus you get a second strike reset but lets ignore that for now.) When you pick up a Glock, you have to pull the trigger a fairly long way before you hit the second stage. If you are taking your time on a target, you probably pause there to get everything just right and then squeeze off the shot. The LEM works the same way. A very, very light long pull which then hits a noticeable second stage. If you turn the gun sideways and look at it, you will notice the hammer going back. You squeeze the trigger that last little bit on a Glock or a LEM, the gun fires and cycles. You let the trigger go forward _just a bit_ to the reset point and then you pull it again. With either trigger, you don't let it go all the way forward unless you are going to stop the engagement.

So all HK did was add an external hammer and increase the trigger pull length for the initial pull. It's not like it takes much effort. On my HK45, it probably takes 1.5-2 pounds to make that long initial pull to the second stage. It isn't the pull weight that makes it safe, it's the long distance of the pull itself. You release it, the hammer goes down, the trigger goes back forward. HK thought that would be safer in the hands of LEO's than the shorter Glock trigger. Plus they were able to add in a second strike ability. Pull the trigger once and get a dud round. You can pull the trigger again and the trigger will cycle again. It will be a heavier pull but you will actually get results rather than the dead trigger of a Glock.

OK, if you are still with me (!) consider the target market of the LEM. A gun that is going to be carried all day long in the safest condition. And then will be drawn and pointed and still must be as safe as possible. Perhaps in the hands of LEO's that aren't as well trained as we wish they were. And then when things do go south, it can still be fired under stress and with minimal movement of any external controls. True, a DA/SA can meet those requirements. But half a century of experience with those guns shows us that cops have a very hard time hitting anybody with that first DA shot. It's virtually a throw away for some of them. Realizing that, some of them make it even worse by deciding to cock it in a pressure situation. So then you get unintentionally discharges. There _are_ reasons why the straight DA/SA gun isn't seen all that often anymore in LEO holsters in the US.

And we see some of the same things with civilians. For a civilian wanting a gun for daily carry, why shouldn't the same issues apply? You want it to be dead safe to carry. But when you draw it under stress you don't want to have any possibility of fumbling with controls. And while I personally love my Glocks for a whole lot of things (and I own several) I've never liked using them for carry guns. I always cringe just a little when I have to re-holster one and I don't have 100% line of sight with what I am trying to do. Always worried some piece of clothing or coat cinch or _something_ is something going to snag that short and light trigger when I'm pushing it home. In the exact same situation, I can put my thumb firmly over the hammer of the HK and know there is NO way that trigger can be pulled rearward.

Final civilian use... look at IDPA. I love Glocks for IDPA and I've used them there more than anything else. DA/SA is a frigging pain in the butt here. Go compete in IDPA with your DA/SA. Week after week. Not just once. You will get tired of losing. Because you have to start each stage from the holster and hammer down. So every single stage you are starting out DA. And you can't "cock it" either. This is one of the things competition like IDPA was designed to do. Actually let us "weed out" what's the good and what's the bad between designs. You draw and fire DA/SA hundreds of times against LEM and the LEM is going to start to pull away. Your first shot will be faster and more accurate with the LEM and the ones after that will be just as good as the SA ones.

Heck, I just wish HK made more types of guns for me to buy. I don't own a P30 yet and just found out you can get imported .357 SIG barrels for them. I might have to get a P30L LEM just to put a .357 SIG barrel in it. What I _really_ wish HK made is an exact copy of my carry gun but in .22 LR. Make an HK P2000 LEM in .22 LR. Same exact weight, etc. Don't cheap out on it. I'm willing to pay full price, sell the darn thing for $850. It would be worth it to me to be able to practice all the time with dirt cheap ammo!

Quote:
Again having gotten used to DA/SA beforehand I didn't see any advantage, but it is probably easier to learn for new shooters.
I'm 50 years old and grew up with guns in my hands so I'm not a new shooter! I love revolvers. And Glocks. And HK P7's. They are all different but my brain figures it out. Keeps you young!

Gregg
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