The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Very frustrating conversation with a "liberal"

kodiakbeer · April 24, 2010, 02:32 PM

There two types of liberals, just as there are two types of people of any political persuasion.

Some people base their opinions on rational data, and some people are just mindless followers who believe anything that comes from a source that agrees with their pre-conceived notions.

If your friend is a thinking person, a good argument is pointing out the fallacies in anti-gun propaganda. A good example is the "statistics" on gun deaths in the US vs those in the UK.

The propaganda will point out that there are less gun suicides in the UK. The rational response is that overall suicides haven't changed - just as many people kill themselves today as before the bans. Only the tools have changed.

The same holds true of murder - murder has actually risen in the UK, only the tools have changed while during the same time period, murder has fallen in the US.

Street crime has risen dramatically in the UK. The UK actually has higher levels of violent crime than the US, overall. You can't really blame that on gun control, because people in the UK were not allowed to carry before the ban. But a few years ago, they also banned carrying of knives and that total disarmament of citizens probably has created a rise in street crime. The criminal knows in advance that his target is totally disarmed.

One of the most telling statistics is what we (in the US) call home invasion. Most burglaries in the UK happen while the occupants are actually home. They know the occupants don't have a shotgun leaning next to the bed, so they come in and help themselves - if the occupant protests, they are beaten, stabbed or if lucky, merely held immobile while they ransack the house. Before the ban, burglars (as in the US) targeted homes when the occupants were out.

Burglaries in the US happen while the occupants are out - bad enough, but at least you don't have to worry about being killed, beaten, terrorized or raped as in the UK.

You can go on all day with that. "Gun crime" is a failed argument. Lowering "gun crime" does not mean lowering murder rates, rape, violence, etc.

Violent crime in the US has dropped at the same time gun laws have been relaxed. Violent crime in the UK has risen at the same time that gun laws have been tightened.

It's a solid argument. If your liberal friend can't connect the dots, then he's incapable of rational thought, and not worth your time.

April 24, 2010, 02:32 PM	#10
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	There two types of liberals, just as there are two types of people of any political persuasion. Some people base their opinions on rational data, and some people are just mindless followers who believe anything that comes from a source that agrees with their pre-conceived notions. If your friend is a thinking person, a good argument is pointing out the fallacies in anti-gun propaganda. A good example is the "statistics" on gun deaths in the US vs those in the UK. The propaganda will point out that there are less gun suicides in the UK. The rational response is that overall suicides haven't changed - just as many people kill themselves today as before the bans. Only the tools have changed. The same holds true of murder - murder has actually risen in the UK, only the tools have changed while during the same time period, murder has fallen in the US. Street crime has risen dramatically in the UK. The UK actually has higher levels of violent crime than the US, overall. You can't really blame that on gun control, because people in the UK were not allowed to carry before the ban. But a few years ago, they also banned carrying of knives and that total disarmament of citizens probably has created a rise in street crime. The criminal knows in advance that his target is totally disarmed. One of the most telling statistics is what we (in the US) call home invasion. Most burglaries in the UK happen while the occupants are actually home. They know the occupants don't have a shotgun leaning next to the bed, so they come in and help themselves - if the occupant protests, they are beaten, stabbed or if lucky, merely held immobile while they ransack the house. Before the ban, burglars (as in the US) targeted homes when the occupants were out. Burglaries in the US happen while the occupants are out - bad enough, but at least you don't have to worry about being killed, beaten, terrorized or raped as in the UK. You can go on all day with that. "Gun crime" is a failed argument. Lowering "gun crime" does not mean lowering murder rates, rape, violence, etc. Violent crime in the US has dropped at the same time gun laws have been relaxed. Violent crime in the UK has risen at the same time that gun laws have been tightened. It's a solid argument. If your liberal friend can't connect the dots, then he's incapable of rational thought, and not worth your time.