Bill: I did read the whole article. Show me something other than opinion,
or statements that don't contradict themselves. Show me something based on actual testing, or give us some proof via technical references.
I've also agreed (and asserted) time and again that many springs may outlast the shooters or the guns in which they are installed. But I know from first-hand experience that some won't. As do others, here.
If some springs won't last forever, as you would have us believe they would, and if , as you claim, springs are springs, why are those particular springs NOT able to live as long as their longer-lived brethern? Early on you claimed it was due to badly/cheaply made springs. Perhaps that is a problem with some of them, but I don't think it's a problem with all of them.
Could it be that some guns just push springs harder or farther than others, and those applications, by their very nature, shorten the spring life as a consequence?
When spring makers (like WOLFF) say that keeping springs fully compressed (at, or near their design limits) will cause them to degrade, I give that expert opinion more credence than when a gun maker says otherwise. Most standard (non hi-cap) mag springs are never fully compressed, and most hi-cap mag springs are frequently (nearly) fully compressed.
When spring makers like Wolff tell us how to preserve spring life (by downloading a round or two for long-term storage), they don't seem to be trying to sell more mag springs. It might be they're trying to tell us something important.
Do YOU believe that springs heal by being rested? Some of your "experts" seem to be leaning in that direction. And when a company's customer service rep makes a general statement about all magazines (not just his company's mags), I get really skeptical.
If you'll remember, we've also had a couple of police armorers participating in earlier versions of this same discussion who have talked about having to replace mag springs in a lot of police guns that have been kept fully loaded for extended periods. Is that credible evidence for this discussion, or just another example of inferior product? Just bad springs, do you think? Some of them were S&Ws, I suspect.
The last time we had this same discussion, you wrote -- amending your earlier statements -- that springs could fail when pushed to or beyond their elastic limits. That's what Wolff said. You now seem to be turning your back on that statement. Are you changing your position, again? I'm sure I can find that statement and others by you, to that effect. This forum has a long memory.
Another of your new expert sources says springs won't fail -- but then goes on to say that the gun may not function properly -- may not feed the next round, etc. Isn't that the description of a spring failure? He seems to think that some springs can go soft and it's not a failure, but only a break is a failure.
You still haven't answered an important question: why do some gun makers tell their customers to replace sub-compact and compact recoil springs far more frequently than the springs used in their full-sized guns? Springs are springs, aren't they? Are they now designing inferior guns, or are they just using springs, like bullets, as expendable resources?
SCIMMIA, in responding to Bill's citation, wrote:
Quote:
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He's making the point that a spring sitting in a static state (loaded magazine) won't fatigue, which has been said many times already in this thread.
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That HAS been said, but said both correctly and incorrectly.
The technical information we've seen posted here suggests that some springs compressed in a static state (as in a WWII 1911 mag that is fully loaded) will often not deteriorate enough to ever be noticed. That's because that particular "static, compressed" spring isn't being asked to remain static near it's elastic limit. There's more room to compress those springs, and they're not being asked to work as hard as they could be worked! (I think an 8-round 1911 mag uses the same springs as a 7-round 1911 mag, for example. Some room there for further compression, to be sure.) Which of those springs is being compressed more, when held static while fully loaded? It IS working, because it's trying hard to LIFT those rounds, and as soon as it's allowed to lift them (by the slide moving back, extracting a spent round and moving forward to pick up a new round, it WILL lift one into position. It's static, but it's working!!)
Wolff (the spring makers) and others say that if the spring is fully compressed, and that full compression pushes the spring to or beyond it design limits, there can be deterioration. That's apparently why some hi-cap mags springs (for 15-18 round mags) seem to die faster than the springs for 10-rounders. That's also probably why some springs in compact mags (which are the equivalent of a high-cap mag in a smaller case) don't last as long.
There may also be why some SMALL RECOIL springs for compact guns don't last as long -- or maybe it's because they're being forced to do more work
than normally can be done by a spring that must fit in that smaller space.
Please note: those "hi-cap" or "compact" springs
are not cycling more often than their bigger brothers, but they're being called upon to do more work with what is probably less steel and fewer coils than their larger relatives. I would think that cycling/compression alone isn't NECESSARILY the killer you think it is, but must also be coupled with the amount of work being attempted by that spring.
As has been noted before, if compressions/cycles alone would kill springs, a heck of a lot more tappet springs ought to have died, by now, than have died. (My nephew had a Toyota pickup that he put several hundred thousand miles on, and then sold to a friend. It's still running strong and is nearing 500,000 miles without a major overhaul or new tappet springs. That's a LOT of compressions. I suspect it's a good bit of oil out the tailpipe, too, now.)
Working a spring can certainly cause it to deteriorate, but if it's properly designed and kept within its design envelope, it may live a very long life despite those cycles. It'll deteriorate, but not enough to matter.
If so, the number of cycles its subjected to may not be as important as the amount of work performed during those cycles -- how far the springs must compress, and how much work it must do during its work cycle. That may be why full-size 1911 recoil springs last a long time, while smaller recoil springs in compact versions of the same gun -- handling the same rounds -- don't last as long.
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