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Wayner · December 19, 2005, 12:37 PM

Hey Guys, the thing I would like to say is that I asked Val Forgett about why the Italians make the cap&ball revolvers (most anyway) with smaller than groove diameter chambers. He said he knows they do that to prepare for subsequent shots where "fouling" has accumulated. Notice the revolvers that are known for accuracy have chambers sized right at groove diameter or a few.001's over(Ruger Old Army). A lot of guns shoot fine with smaller than groove diameter chambers as Smokin has related and I guess it has to do with obsturation of the lead upon firing. It was stated above that the ball can'y obsturate in a chamber and then after the ball leaves the chamber the pressure drops "off" appreciably so the lead can't obsturate then either. Well....the pressures rise even after the ball has passed the cylinder gap and is in the barrel. Still burning powder. It has been shown in a test that was conducted in relation to "hammer seating" caps and the rules of CASS to negate the hammer seating of caps that the ball when to the side of the barrel(where it is when capping is done) travels with less velosity and a much smaller energy (concidered non-lethal) than when the ball is aligned with the barrel.When the ball in the chamber is aligned with the barrel it has greatly increased velosity and thus much more energy and ft/lbs and becomes lethal as we all know. Well, with the increase of energy that the ball attains when going through the barrel bcause of the "rising pressures" the ball can certainly have a possibility of being obsturated to a larger diameter. I think the consistancy of the obsturation is reliant to a certian degree on the resistance the ball gives to overcoming an increase in velosity. In other words the more resistance the ball gives the powder blast the more the lead can obsturate. This resistance of the ball to the movement the powder blast imparts on the ball must be different in some guns than others and that must mean that some guns with smaller than groove diameter chambers can obsturate lead "more consistantly" than others and thus be more accurate than others. Anywhooo, I believe the revolver that in one way or the other ends up with the ball tight to the grooves in the barrel and sealing the gases behind it are more accurate. Why? Well.....we all know what a worn crown on the muzzle of a gun barrel can do to accuracy. Well....a gun that shoots a ball that is loose in a barrel and doesn't seal the gases behind it and leaves a space between the ball and the barrels grooves can let gases shoot through the space there. Right at the mill=second the ball very first becomes unsupported by the barrel the gases jetison out the spaces that are open where the ball didn't seal the gases behind it and move the ball off the line of sight. The gases errupt out some spaces and then because of "fouling" the next shot the gases errupt out another space. One space one time more than others and then another space more than others the next time. JUST LIKE A GUN BARREL WITH A WORN OUT CROWN AT THE MUZZLE. tHAT CAUSES THE GASES TO MOVE THE BALL OFF THE LINE OF SIGHT IN ANY DIRECTION THE CAOS OF NATURE AND IT'S WHIMS DICTATES. When a ball is shot through a barrel and the lead of the ball fills the grooves "tight" the gases errupt out at the muzzle uniformily around the crown of the barrel and leave the ball right on the line of sight and makes a more accurate revolver. Other factors come into play naturally even with the gun with the chambers that size the ball right at or a little over groove diameter of the barrel. One big factor is the shooter holding the gun. A shooter that is well versed in firing a pistol naturally negates more human error than a shooter that has not aquired the "knack" for shooting the pistol. Cap&ball pistol, the subject of this posting. Well that may be why Smokin-Gun can shoot good groups with his pistols. Experience and maybe.....some aspect of his loading or gun barrel characteristics may be coming together at the right time in the same space in the universe and BINGO.... there goes another bullseye. The other factor that I'd like to mention with these cap&ball revolvers in guestion here is the "fouling" caused by the blackpowder or the substitute used to fire the gun.Fouling by it's very nature does not adhere to the barrel walls as uniformly as some may think. Look in the barrel of a dirty revolver sometime. Well, the fouling accumulation that is actually different for each shot fired(first shot through a clean barrel, last shot through a dirty barrel, middle shot through a less dirty barrel than the last. Each shot fired goes through a barrel that has a different amount of fouling than the prior to and after than shots. Well that affects the resistance the ball gives to the powder when it goes through the barrel. Every shot a different resistance imparted to the ball and every shot the ball is affected by the powder blast a little differently because of that resistance. That is kind of like putting a different powder charge in each of the chambers all the time and we all know that can affect accuracy right? Well, I believe it does. What can a person do? Clean the barrel after every shot? That may be ok for a guy shooting a muzzleloading rifle but for a guy shooting a cap&ball revolver. Well, a good lube that keeps the barel clean or at least uniformly fouled each shot would work. The last time I used a lube that did that was the last shot I fired with Hodgdon's Spit Ball Lube until I started using a lube pill(grease cookie) "behind each ball" in the chamber. A grease cookie made of beeswax and a good natural lube will keep a barrel clean and keep the chambers clean(at least from the position of the lube pill out to the opening) for 100's of shots. That is a recipe for better and consistant accuracy. A clean barrel and chambers. I might add to this by saying that for some reason the 36cal. revolvers like the wax-lube pill smeared "over" the ball instead of under it like the 44 cal. DEFINITLY prefers. The lube pill over the 36 cal. ball is no different than putting a lube over the ball you say? Well. the wax in the lube pill holds the lube pill over the ball as all the other chambers ignite their powder charges unlike a regular lube that is blown out a great deal by preceeding shots fired. Well, I believe that as the ball in a 36 cal. chamber flies into the forcing cone of the barrel the wax lube pill over it flows to the sides of the ball(unless the pill is made with too much wax and is too hard) not wanting to overcome inertia and ends up spread out in the forcing cone and is then moved in front of the powder blast and travels down the barrel behind the ball where the heat can melt some of it and lube the barrel walls before the fouling gets there first. Bingo, cleaner barrel. Anywhoioo... the 44 cal. balls for some reason like the lube pill just fine behind them and that keeps the barrels and chambers cleaner for sure. The chambers getting hard fouling on their walls(as I'm sure we've all seen with the cap&baller) swags the balls smaller as the fouling builds. That affects accuracy too I would imagine. The pills behind the balls in the chambers negates the fouling building on the chambers walls and leaves the ball the size the chamber is reamed to and that helps accuracy too. I could go into the aspect of reaming the chambers to match or size a few .001's over the groove diameter of the barrel at this point but I have to go talk to a man about a horse. See yas Pards.

December 19, 2005, 12:37 PM	#14
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	Hey Guys, the thing I would like to say is that I asked Val Forgett about why the Italians make the cap&ball revolvers (most anyway) with smaller than groove diameter chambers. He said he knows they do that to prepare for subsequent shots where "fouling" has accumulated. Notice the revolvers that are known for accuracy have chambers sized right at groove diameter or a few.001's over(Ruger Old Army). A lot of guns shoot fine with smaller than groove diameter chambers as Smokin has related and I guess it has to do with obsturation of the lead upon firing. It was stated above that the ball can'y obsturate in a chamber and then after the ball leaves the chamber the pressure drops "off" appreciably so the lead can't obsturate then either. Well....the pressures rise even after the ball has passed the cylinder gap and is in the barrel. Still burning powder. It has been shown in a test that was conducted in relation to "hammer seating" caps and the rules of CASS to negate the hammer seating of caps that the ball when to the side of the barrel(where it is when capping is done) travels with less velosity and a much smaller energy (concidered non-lethal) than when the ball is aligned with the barrel.When the ball in the chamber is aligned with the barrel it has greatly increased velosity and thus much more energy and ft/lbs and becomes lethal as we all know. Well, with the increase of energy that the ball attains when going through the barrel bcause of the "rising pressures" the ball can certainly have a possibility of being obsturated to a larger diameter. I think the consistancy of the obsturation is reliant to a certian degree on the resistance the ball gives to overcoming an increase in velosity. In other words the more resistance the ball gives the powder blast the more the lead can obsturate. This resistance of the ball to the movement the powder blast imparts on the ball must be different in some guns than others and that must mean that some guns with smaller than groove diameter chambers can obsturate lead "more consistantly" than others and thus be more accurate than others. Anywhooo, I believe the revolver that in one way or the other ends up with the ball tight to the grooves in the barrel and sealing the gases behind it are more accurate. Why? Well.....we all know what a worn crown on the muzzle of a gun barrel can do to accuracy. Well....a gun that shoots a ball that is loose in a barrel and doesn't seal the gases behind it and leaves a space between the ball and the barrels grooves can let gases shoot through the space there. Right at the mill=second the ball very first becomes unsupported by the barrel the gases jetison out the spaces that are open where the ball didn't seal the gases behind it and move the ball off the line of sight. The gases errupt out some spaces and then because of "fouling" the next shot the gases errupt out another space. One space one time more than others and then another space more than others the next time. JUST LIKE A GUN BARREL WITH A WORN OUT CROWN AT THE MUZZLE. tHAT CAUSES THE GASES TO MOVE THE BALL OFF THE LINE OF SIGHT IN ANY DIRECTION THE CAOS OF NATURE AND IT'S WHIMS DICTATES. When a ball is shot through a barrel and the lead of the ball fills the grooves "tight" the gases errupt out at the muzzle uniformily around the crown of the barrel and leave the ball right on the line of sight and makes a more accurate revolver. Other factors come into play naturally even with the gun with the chambers that size the ball right at or a little over groove diameter of the barrel. One big factor is the shooter holding the gun. A shooter that is well versed in firing a pistol naturally negates more human error than a shooter that has not aquired the "knack" for shooting the pistol. Cap&ball pistol, the subject of this posting. Well that may be why Smokin-Gun can shoot good groups with his pistols. Experience and maybe.....some aspect of his loading or gun barrel characteristics may be coming together at the right time in the same space in the universe and BINGO.... there goes another bullseye. The other factor that I'd like to mention with these cap&ball revolvers in guestion here is the "fouling" caused by the blackpowder or the substitute used to fire the gun.Fouling by it's very nature does not adhere to the barrel walls as uniformly as some may think. Look in the barrel of a dirty revolver sometime. Well, the fouling accumulation that is actually different for each shot fired(first shot through a clean barrel, last shot through a dirty barrel, middle shot through a less dirty barrel than the last. Each shot fired goes through a barrel that has a different amount of fouling than the prior to and after than shots. Well that affects the resistance the ball gives to the powder when it goes through the barrel. Every shot a different resistance imparted to the ball and every shot the ball is affected by the powder blast a little differently because of that resistance. That is kind of like putting a different powder charge in each of the chambers all the time and we all know that can affect accuracy right? Well, I believe it does. What can a person do? Clean the barrel after every shot? That may be ok for a guy shooting a muzzleloading rifle but for a guy shooting a cap&ball revolver. Well, a good lube that keeps the barel clean or at least uniformly fouled each shot would work. The last time I used a lube that did that was the last shot I fired with Hodgdon's Spit Ball Lube until I started using a lube pill(grease cookie) "behind each ball" in the chamber. A grease cookie made of beeswax and a good natural lube will keep a barrel clean and keep the chambers clean(at least from the position of the lube pill out to the opening) for 100's of shots. That is a recipe for better and consistant accuracy. A clean barrel and chambers. I might add to this by saying that for some reason the 36cal. revolvers like the wax-lube pill smeared "over" the ball instead of under it like the 44 cal. DEFINITLY prefers. The lube pill over the 36 cal. ball is no different than putting a lube over the ball you say? Well. the wax in the lube pill holds the lube pill over the ball as all the other chambers ignite their powder charges unlike a regular lube that is blown out a great deal by preceeding shots fired. Well, I believe that as the ball in a 36 cal. chamber flies into the forcing cone of the barrel the wax lube pill over it flows to the sides of the ball(unless the pill is made with too much wax and is too hard) not wanting to overcome inertia and ends up spread out in the forcing cone and is then moved in front of the powder blast and travels down the barrel behind the ball where the heat can melt some of it and lube the barrel walls before the fouling gets there first. Bingo, cleaner barrel. Anywhoioo... the 44 cal. balls for some reason like the lube pill just fine behind them and that keeps the barrels and chambers cleaner for sure. The chambers getting hard fouling on their walls(as I'm sure we've all seen with the cap&baller) swags the balls smaller as the fouling builds. That affects accuracy too I would imagine. The pills behind the balls in the chambers negates the fouling building on the chambers walls and leaves the ball the size the chamber is reamed to and that helps accuracy too. I could go into the aspect of reaming the chambers to match or size a few .001's over the groove diameter of the barrel at this point but I have to go talk to a man about a horse. See yas Pards.