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vox rationis · May 20, 2008, 05:59 PM

I agree with Socrates:

I think that the $5 dollar request can be called "the interview" and this is where the thugs size you up and distract you to see what they are against. It is also an intimidation tactic and a "set up", especially in this scenario as there were lots of them against one. Once Goetz produced his wallet they would have assaulted him with a boot party and stolen the wallet, or perhaps,if they were especially sadistic, with a truly life threatening stomping. If Goetz said, "sorry I don't have $5 dollars" then that would have given the opportunity for the thugs to get feelings of "indignation" and establish the grounds for the assault that was coming.

I also think that when 4 or 5 guys coalesce around you in an obviously threatening manner, and this was Goetz's call based on his experiences and on being there in person, one can become extremely fearful for one's safety, and perhaps even life. Disparity of force issues should definitely be considered here.

Ultimately it is hard to second guess whether or not Goetz did the right thing or not. He was there and he chose his course of action based on the cards that he was dealt. Now perhaps Goetz should have waited for the assault to begin in earnest before drawing the gun to shoot, but on the other hand then he'd be one strike away from being knocked out and then at the complete mercy of the thugs. They could just have easily then stomped him on his way to death.

I'm not sure what the "perfect" way to have handled that situation would have been. Maybe brandishing would have made the scatter, but then again, maybe not, and in close quarters against multiple assailants at arms reach, he could just as easily been disarmed (mall ninjas please refrain from telling me how you would have done the double secret weapon retention move at this point).

So, given those circumstances it seems to me that it is reasonable that Goetz, if afraid of being seriously maimed and once he made the commitment to shoot to defend himself, once he drew the gun, might have felt that, tactically, there was no other choice but to shoot.

But obviously he really complicated matters by issuing his terribly misjudged comments after the shooting.

p.s. here's an interesting site about the dynamics of violent crime
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html (click on the individual 5 stages of violent crime for some interesting reading)

May 20, 2008, 05:59 PM	#38
vox rationis Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1,855	I agree with Socrates: I think that the $5 dollar request can be called "the interview" and this is where the thugs size you up and distract you to see what they are against. It is also an intimidation tactic and a "set up", especially in this scenario as there were lots of them against one. Once Goetz produced his wallet they would have assaulted him with a boot party and stolen the wallet, or perhaps,if they were especially sadistic, with a truly life threatening stomping. If Goetz said, "sorry I don't have $5 dollars" then that would have given the opportunity for the thugs to get feelings of "indignation" and establish the grounds for the assault that was coming. I also think that when 4 or 5 guys coalesce around you in an obviously threatening manner, and this was Goetz's call based on his experiences and on being there in person, one can become extremely fearful for one's safety, and perhaps even life. Disparity of force issues should definitely be considered here. Ultimately it is hard to second guess whether or not Goetz did the right thing or not. He was there and he chose his course of action based on the cards that he was dealt. Now perhaps Goetz should have waited for the assault to begin in earnest before drawing the gun to shoot, but on the other hand then he'd be one strike away from being knocked out and then at the complete mercy of the thugs. They could just have easily then stomped him on his way to death. I'm not sure what the "perfect" way to have handled that situation would have been. Maybe brandishing would have made the scatter, but then again, maybe not, and in close quarters against multiple assailants at arms reach, he could just as easily been disarmed (mall ninjas please refrain from telling me how you would have done the double secret weapon retention move at this point). So, given those circumstances it seems to me that it is reasonable that Goetz, if afraid of being seriously maimed and once he made the commitment to shoot to defend himself, once he drew the gun, might have felt that, tactically, there was no other choice but to shoot. But obviously he really complicated matters by issuing his terribly misjudged comments after the shooting. p.s. here's an interesting site about the dynamics of violent crime http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html (click on the individual 5 stages of violent crime for some interesting reading)