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Ravenshade · June 6, 2009, 01:22 AM

What does more money bye you during any given day? In a word, OPTIONS. The person with ten dollars in there pocket is limited to certain options by that amount of money to what they can bye for lunch that day. Equally the person with one hundred dollars in there pocket has many more options available to them for lunch that day. The more options you have equal a better potential quality of life. Seems like common sense to me.

So using this example let us look at the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun. This weapon is considered by many to be one of the most versatile weapons in the world. So why is it that it’s full potential of options is not being used? First let us identify some of the options that this weapon brings to the table. The twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun firing shells loaded with small shot pellets to large buck shot pellets and even larger slugs has been putting meat on the menu for a long time. The many different sizes of projectiles allow the weapon to take small game such as birds all the way up to larger game like bears. The weapon has also been defending hearth and home for just as long and is a favorite weapon of many if not all police and military forces. The only option not covered by the smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun is the niche presently held by the high powered rifle. In particular the rifle projectile’s high velocity, long range, and accuracy. I just believe that with today’s technology the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun should be able to come very close to high powered rifle performance. Even at long ranges.

That being said I would like to draw your attention to Ed Hubel and his fellow enthusiasts at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=197214 these folks have been doing some very interesting experimenting with heavy barrel twelve gauge and other big bore guns, both smooth bore and rifled barrels. Recently Ed and company achieved these results.

“One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened. Ed”

Seems to me we have the velocity and with the correct type of projectile we could have the range and accuracy. Granted the prevailing wisdom states that a twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun can not achieve results like that of a high powered rifle. My thought was that barrowing the idea of fin stabilization from BPI’s AQ slugs, anti tank rounds used the world over, and even the ancient technology of the arrow (Hence ensuring that even the anti gun nut lawyers could see that the precedent has been set.) that someone should take the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile drill out the back of said projectile there by reducing its wait to 500 grains (With fins included) and insert fins like the AQ slugs but maybe with the fins more in line with the projectiles boat tail shape and then placing the projectile into an appropriately sized twelve gauge sabot then placing said sabot into a brass shotgun shell of 3.5 to 4.0 inches long that maybe that would be a step towards knocking the high powered rifle off its pedestal. At the very least giving the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun more range and accuracy and thus adding one more option to this versatile weapon.

I would think that the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile with the above modifications and moving at 3000 fps or faster would do a great job on whitetail deer on up to possibly moose sized game.

After thought – Could the breach end of a sabot be designed to achieve rifle like spin while being thrust down a smooth bore barrel thereby imparting said spin to the projectile?

Disclaimer – I am in no way an engineer or a gunsmith. The ideas expressed herein are just conceptual. Any person or persons that make use of these ideas do so at there own risk. I make no legal claims to these ideas and give full credit to Ed Hubel and all persons involved on “thefiringline” forum.

June 6, 2009, 01:22 AM	#468
Ravenshade Junior Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 2	All purpose smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun concept What does more money bye you during any given day? In a word, OPTIONS. The person with ten dollars in there pocket is limited to certain options by that amount of money to what they can bye for lunch that day. Equally the person with one hundred dollars in there pocket has many more options available to them for lunch that day. The more options you have equal a better potential quality of life. Seems like common sense to me. So using this example let us look at the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun. This weapon is considered by many to be one of the most versatile weapons in the world. So why is it that it’s full potential of options is not being used? First let us identify some of the options that this weapon brings to the table. The twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun firing shells loaded with small shot pellets to large buck shot pellets and even larger slugs has been putting meat on the menu for a long time. The many different sizes of projectiles allow the weapon to take small game such as birds all the way up to larger game like bears. The weapon has also been defending hearth and home for just as long and is a favorite weapon of many if not all police and military forces. The only option not covered by the smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun is the niche presently held by the high powered rifle. In particular the rifle projectile’s high velocity, long range, and accuracy. I just believe that with today’s technology the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun should be able to come very close to high powered rifle performance. Even at long ranges. That being said I would like to draw your attention to Ed Hubel and his fellow enthusiasts at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=197214 these folks have been doing some very interesting experimenting with heavy barrel twelve gauge and other big bore guns, both smooth bore and rifled barrels. Recently Ed and company achieved these results. “One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with 500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could get them there with my loads using much larger amounts of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot. Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper. This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi. He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had 200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads and with same amount of powder and got lower yet. He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened. Ed” Seems to me we have the velocity and with the correct type of projectile we could have the range and accuracy. Granted the prevailing wisdom states that a twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun can not achieve results like that of a high powered rifle. My thought was that barrowing the idea of fin stabilization from BPI’s AQ slugs, anti tank rounds used the world over, and even the ancient technology of the arrow (Hence ensuring that even the anti gun nut lawyers could see that the precedent has been set.) that someone should take the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile drill out the back of said projectile there by reducing its wait to 500 grains (With fins included) and insert fins like the AQ slugs but maybe with the fins more in line with the projectiles boat tail shape and then placing the projectile into an appropriately sized twelve gauge sabot then placing said sabot into a brass shotgun shell of 3.5 to 4.0 inches long that maybe that would be a step towards knocking the high powered rifle off its pedestal. At the very least giving the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun more range and accuracy and thus adding one more option to this versatile weapon. I would think that the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile with the above modifications and moving at 3000 fps or faster would do a great job on whitetail deer on up to possibly moose sized game. After thought – Could the breach end of a sabot be designed to achieve rifle like spin while being thrust down a smooth bore barrel thereby imparting said spin to the projectile? Disclaimer – I am in no way an engineer or a gunsmith. The ideas expressed herein are just conceptual. Any person or persons that make use of these ideas do so at there own risk. I make no legal claims to these ideas and give full credit to Ed Hubel and all persons involved on “thefiringline” forum. __________________ Always remember that history is written with the blood of the defeated by those that were victorious. Last edited by Ravenshade; June 6, 2009 at 09:36 PM.