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Old January 31, 2013, 06:32 PM   #38
Winchester_73
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Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,859
Well the Smithsonian has attempted to buy my S&W collection at least 5x, so I'm going to weigh in on this thread.

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You've got an earlyish Model of 1905 4th change

Not really early when you think about it. The 1905 4th change started with SN 241704. Early to me, would be 245XXX or before, not 565XXX!

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possibly one of the last ones made with the hard rubber stocks, which were dropped as an option in, I believe, the early 1930s.
Maybe so, but recognize the real reason the OPs gun has hard rubber is beccause the gun is a round butt. For square butt guns, IE since the 1905 model arrived, all square butt guns got wood, and round butt guns, with the exception of the 1899 military, got rubber. I have not seen many pre war round butt M&Ps with wood grips. I assume, as you said, rubber was discontinued for round butt guns at some point, but I have no idea when it was. In my collection, I have a 563XXX 4in round butt pre war M&P.

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The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors.
I don't like the pre 10 designation BUT, I also don't bother to debate it, usually. Some people do extend the "pre XX" designation to mean pre war guns as well, which makes things more confusing for everyone. However, there is the "When in Rome..." thing, which applies. If I tell them i like S&Ws, I won't say I like 1905 X change guns, but rather "5 screw guns" or maybe even, dare I say, pre model 10s, because they will most likely know what I mean. As a collector, I'm not going to educate "professional" sellers and get an eye from the guy behind the counter, when he sees I'm half his age. Unfortunately, age does not equal knowledge, but few people realize that.

If I'm talking to a S&W collector, and I say I have something, I call it a 1905 X change, or a post war M&P, model 10-1, etc. The factory did call them M&Ps before they were the model 10, so to have a name alternate to "M&P" isn't necessary. Same is true for other models. When you call it a 1905 4th change, S&W collectors know what gun, features, and era. If you call it "pre 10" I will wonder if its actually an 1899!

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I have an S&W that is obviously a pre-Model 10. I once called it a Model 1 Second Issue, but that was before I got eddikated by the eggspurts. And it certainly is PRE Model 10. About a century PRE.
Someday I hope to get a S&W pre-revolver pistol aka a volcanic pistol. Btw, is your spell check defective? See if its still under warranty.

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go over to the Colt Forum or the Ruger or S&W forums and as you know collectors and gun aficionados name things and debate the variations. The nomenclature becomes accepted.
Well I tell ya what, if I don't know the guy, I will use pre 10, or whatever lingo to make sure he understands. I do try and of course use the correct lingo, but when you don't have time to explain to them, and they don't care to know or perhaps don't believe you because they know Uncle Billy knew his guns , then to me, it is a pre 10, even if its a 1899 lol! If I sell a gun online, I fill the title with every possible logical name for the gun. I also search for guns that are list improperly for these reasons. Sometimes you have to go with what is commonly spoken unless you have a TON of free time on your hands with a lot of patience. I know I don't. If you want to learn what I have, learn they way I did. I don't give free education as much as I did.

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Unlike the screechers, I know EXACTLY what someone is talking about when they say pre-Model 10, post Registered Magnum, or Victory Model, NONE of which was ever an official nomenclature
That's definitely impossible. If you mean to say if someone says it a pre model 10, you know its K frame and 38 special, that's one thing, BUT you have no idea which variation, and there are many. Pre 10 is a very broad umbrella. Some people will occasionally call a M&P target a pre 10 with target sights or something. You can't assume what a pre model 10 is when it can cover 58 years or so of manufacturing, with tons of variations. "Post registered magnum" could be a non-registered, post war transitional, or a 357 model of 1950 5 screw, or even a 4 screw model of 1950. Victory model would probably cover pre victory guns (they resemble victories, but lack V prefix), they could be 38 special or 38 S&W, etc. Once again, you can't assume that guy looks at the model differences the way you yourself do.

I think tipoc has made good points, but many many people look at this basically the way Mike does, and some others would say even Mike is too specific. As a collector, like tipoc, I won't call a model 1902 a pre model 10, and I probably wouldn't call a 1954 M&P a pre 10 either. However, since so many people do, you have to also, IMO speak that "dialect" of the S&W language to make for easier communication.

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I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.
I too want an 1899. Sorry to hear about the one you missed. Maybe I will find you a 1899 but that will be a harder task than a model 12. Maybe I will find one in the TFL classifieds before you do

22 S&W revolvers? I think I was born with that many.
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Last edited by Winchester_73; January 31, 2013 at 06:40 PM.
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