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Old November 21, 2012, 10:52 PM   #86
SHR970
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2011
Posts: 546
Alright Klawman... it seems even when I agree with you I am writing nonsense. Where do you believe that I am spouting total garbage?

How about your own contradictions?

Quote:
At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits.
This suggests that you haven't patterned either load. If so then this is just conjecture on your part

Quote:
Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass.
I don't disagree with this if nominally off center; however a 16" pattern at 10 yards with #4 buck (which is needed to hit the heart if 8" off center which you called out) also means you are going to have some pellets miss that target if you are at all off center translating into the possibility of collateral damage.

Quote:
Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely.
Not part of the OP and a red herring, a CoM shot with either are 99% likely to do the job.

Quote:
I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.
12 misses of #4 Buck (an optimistic number since 8" off center is a miss on the average male for a frontal shot which means half of your pattern misses) vis a vis 5 pellets of 000Buck slowed down in the target means that you have 7 more chances of hitting an unintended target by your own numbers and more than likely 15.

Post #35
Quote:
Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads).
Now you are gaming the loads to try to fit your arguement. A 3" #4 41 pellet buck load kicks a heck of a lot more than a 3" 410 load out of any combination of shoulder fired weapons. If you want to game the loads, then I will game the practice. I have a Stoger coach 12 gauge (IC & Mod) and a Rossi single 410 (Mod). I would like to see how many 3" shells you are willing to fire out of both. Would you be willing to let your daughter fire a 3" load from the Stoger? Both have the original hard plastic butt pad. I'll bet that you don't go too many shots with the 12 gauge. Like guns with like loads worst case scenario. Practice was a consideration in the OP

You also asked in post #64
Quote:
Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?
My answer was neither due to fringe hit / B zone at best. You'll get some pellets in the lung but that doesn't translate to an INSTANT STOP.

But in post #73 you stated
Quote:
At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.
Which suggests that you haven't patterned one or both.

Post #30
Quote:
One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's.
And shooting a clay pigeon in trap is a heck of a lot harder than hitting a human at household distances.

So please tell us where have I been wrong in posts 17, 37, 51, 67, or 79? These are all of the posts where I have answered.

Last edited by SHR970; November 21, 2012 at 11:12 PM.
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