View Single Post
Old March 8, 2001, 05:06 PM   #1
Senior Member
Join Date: May 31, 1999
Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC
Posts: 7,548
Posted: 01-24-2000 08:52
It seems that every time I finish a chapter in my book someone makes a post on my material.. I just finished this subject yesterday. I tried a controlled
test in 1984 on cryo treated barrels. It was on S/S match Bench Rest barrels and it was for accuracy only. Results were negative. It did not help. A
couple of years ago Lazzeroni did a comprehensive accuracy and wear test. The conclusion was accuracy negative but some improvement to wear.
Before he did a release on the study he did the complete study again. This time the results were the exact opposite as the first test and the control
barrel lasted longer. Conclusion Save your money!!!

Posted: 01-24-2000 08:57
Do your rifle a favor and clean it well after every group and forget all the break in BS

Posted: 01-25-2000 05:19
I just read the Feb edition of rifleman. No wonder it has shrunk to a few pages when they print such garbage as the barrel break in. It's lucky it doesn't
have much following now. As a life member and a barrel maker of long standing be assured I will call them on this BS!!! I can say that there are enough
barrels ruined by ignorance without encouraging the masses to commit mechanical suicide with such BS

Posted: 01-27-2000 08:57
I will make one last post on this subject and appeal to logic on this subject I think it is the height of arrogance to believe a novice can improve a barrel
using a cleaning rod more than that a barrel maker can do with 30 years of experience and a * million dollars in equipment . The barrel is a relatively
precise bit of machining and to imagine that it can be improved on with a bit of abrasive smeared on a patch or embedded in a bullet. The surface finish
of a barrel is a delicate thing with more of them being ruined with a cleaning rod in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use one. I would
never in a million years buy a used rifle now because you well may buy one that has been improved. First give a little thought to what you think you
are accomplishing with any of the break in methods. Do you really believe that if what you are doing would help a barrel that the barrel maker wouldn't
have already done it. The best marketing advantage he can have is for his barrels to out perform his competitors! Of coarse he is happy to see you
poking things in your barrel . Its only going to improve his sales. Get real!!!! I am not saying the following to brag because the record speak for it' self
McMillan barrels won the gold at 4 straight Olympics. Won the Leach Cup eight years running. Had more barrels in the Wimbledon shoot off every year
for 4 straight yearsthan any other make. Set the national 1000 yard record 17 times in one year. Held 7 world records at the same time in the NBRSA .
Won the national silhouette matches 5 straight times and set 3 world records while doing that . Shot the only two 6400 scores in the history of small
bore and holds a 100 yard world record that will stand for ever at .009 of one inch. All with barrels the shooter didn't have to improve on by breaking
them in.

Posted: 01-23-2000 06:20 PM
The laser on your barrel can have some effect on barrel vibrations. In some cases it can have a positive effect. / Do not tighten the mount too tight
because it can actually close the barrel down some which is not good. If you can slide the mount up and down the barrel till you find the tightest group
spot then put a drop of epoxy on it to hold it in place. I assume you are going to put a IR laser on it to use with night vision

Posted: 01-22-2000 12:34 PM
A properly done bedding job will do much better than the best factory drop in job. Not only will it perform far better but will stay performing well
because it seals the area below the action and keeps it from working as much with changes in humidity. To do a proper job is not difficult if you are
patient and not the excitable type. I have a paper on bedding the 700 I can send to you and you can adapt or if you would like we can switch to email
mode and I can walk you through step by step.

Posted: 01-14-2000 01:46 PM
Stainless barrel material is more machineble than Chromemoly. You can hold tighter tolerances and better surface finishes therefore all match barrels
are made of S/S so they are more accurate!

Posted: 01-12-2000 08:56
This is how a barrel maker would judge them.. Hart the oldest and one of the best. Buttons his barrels and uses the push method which relies on
lubrication to maintain steady twist so some times shows a little accuracy problem A second generation family business. Shilen is the second oldest
company and is also a second generation business. They are capable of producing good rifle barrels. Douglas . is just a production barrel company
and you will get a barrel that has never had a human eye look through it! Good enough for a hunting rifle---Sometimes! You never know what you will
get.. Obermyer , \Kriegerthe and K and P are a cut barrel maker, As far as I am concerned that's enough said! Schnider learned his trade in the
McMillan shop and takes an engineers approach to making barrels. The other choice is. Lilja .. The above choice is based on what I think can make a
barrel which will shoot the best!

Posted: 01-08-2000 07:08 PM
Quality barrels will perform better free floated but poor quality barrel will perform better with a 3 to 5 lb fore end pressure. The reason for this is that
poor quality production barrels are not stress relieved and will tend to walk as it heats up. By putting fore end pressure you are actually bending the
barrel upward in an ark so that as the bullet starts down the bore it is trying to straighten out the gentle bow induced by fore end pressure and it holds
the barrel against that force. This causes the bullet to exit at the same vibration point shot to shot even though there may be a velocity spread. It is best
to bed the rifle with free floated barrel as it is easy to bed the barrel with fore end pressure should it not shoot free floated. Just hold the stock in a
vice and hang a 5 lb weight to the front swivel and put bedding material in place in the fore end tip and let set up. This means that free floating is not a
panacea and does not always help. Some do and some don't This is why all factory barrels are generally bedded with fore end pressure

Posted: 12-11-1999 10:40
You will have to acknowledge that Jeff Cooper is the father of the scout rifle. If you have ever had more than a two minute conversation with him he
will have told you that a rifle doesn't have to shoot better than 3 MOA. Being some one who has spent the last 50 years dedicated to making rifles
shoot as well as possible I will say that if a rifle will not put the bullet within one caliber of point of aim at a 100 yards then it won't shoot well enough!
The major point of a rifle is to be able to hit the object being shot at. The scout rifle is to be light weight. A few years ago we were building Titanium
rifles that weighed 5 pounds. I will guarantee that if you swing down off a horse at 7000 feet and run around a cedar tree to get a shot at an elk as it
is working it's way up the draw , that you not only won't be able to hit the elk but will have a hard time hitting the mountain! A rifle needs some mass to
help dampen body impulses. The heavier the rifle the easier it is to shoot well. It has not been all that long ago that target rifles had the weight of the
scope mounted to the barrel. In those days a 1 MOA target rifle shot well enough to win the Wimbledon. Then we found that it was detrimental to
accuracy and now with receiver mounted scopes the long range rifles are shooting under * MOA. Now we come to the LER scopes. If you know
anything about optics you know that eye relief is a compromise. The longer the eye relief the poorer the performance. That's why that most scopes
are 2 1/2 to three and a few have as much as 4 inches eye relief and microscopes have a * inch eye relief.. LER scopes were a trade off to be able to
put scopes on pistols where optical performance was better than pistol accuracy. The evolution of the rifle has been more in performance than in
aesthetic appeal. I will agree that a good many years ago the rifle had advanced to the point that it was functionally adequate and further change has
been for eye appeal and performance.. I have no quarrel with those who are willing to give up performance to be in the crowd of Me To. I can readily
understand that the average man can't hit a road sign at over 25 yards but to cease to strive for excellence in performance is to stop any further
development of the rifle.

Posted: 12-18-1999 06:57 PM
If the ultimate accuracy is your object then don't use a bipod. It will work fairly well but is not the best way to shoot because you won't shoulder the
weapon the same way every time and it won't drag back the same way every shot.. That is the reason the Marine scout snipers shoot off a padded
ammo can. I personally like a pedestal front and a set of rabbit ear rear bags for prone just like you were going to use it on a bench. Always keep the
bags powdered to make them slid the same every shot. Now having said all that I will say that bipod are much more convenient and when it is only a
prairie dogs life at stake I will use a bipod

Posted: 12-17-1999 10:42 PM
You just about never find an action that will give you that kind of results I have only seen one Remington in 50 years that produced a rifle you could not
make shoot. I replaced every thing but the action and couldn't make it work and took the barrel off and put it on another gun and it set a world record.
The best rule of thumb is the three Bs. Bullets, Bedding and Barrel. I think you are going to face up to the fact that you may have got a barrel that
missed going through stress relieving or something. I once had a barrel blank roll off the bench and land on a concrete floor. The rifle I put it on
wouldn't work so I took it off and it layed around the shop a while and one day when I was stress relieving some barrels I put it in the furnace and the
next time I shot it it was a winner. Don't be afraid to give up on a barrel because replacing it will cost less than the bullets that you waste trying to
make it shoot.

Posted: 12-02-1999 10:53
In the 1970s a bunch of target shooters were in our barrel shop and the subject of fluted barrels came up and the point of the discussion was that
they wouldn't shoot well enough for target guns. That was the reason you never saw one on the line. After the discussion broke up I was talking
about it with my brother and we decided to make a couple of barrels and flute them at a point in the manufacture that we thought it should be done. We
made two and one was given to Harold Broughton of Big Springs TX and I put the other on my brothers gun. To make a long story short Harold won
the NBRSA Nationals and Pat won the IBS Nationals and set two worlds records. I will say that while these two barrels were outstanding barrels it
was in spite of being fluted and not because of it. After that everyone was fluting barrels and at any point from after they were made to before they
were drilled. For my own point of view you couldn't' run fast enough to give me one that some one else had fluted. I once asked an other barrel maker
why he fluted barrels and he answered . $2.00 a minute! That was what he made in fluting them.

Posted: 12-01-1999 09:55 PM
The benefit of controlled feed is greatly exaggerated. Look at it this way the US military hunt the most dangerous game on earth with Rem. Rifles .
When I designed the Marine M40A1 we considered replacing the extractor but when we researched extractor failure we found it so incidental it
wasn't worth considering . The problem with installing the a M16 or Sako extractor is when you blow a primmer it turns to shrapnel

Posted: 11-02-1999 09:35 PM
Is in your bag technique. I am assuming that you have a good solid pedestal and good rabbit ear bags. You will probably have better luck using a fore
end stop . You want to pound the rifle down into the bags and position the rear bag so that the crosshair is within a !/4 inch of the point you want to
hit. Push the rifle up to the stop and put about 8 ounces of pressure with your shoulder. Now with the hand that holds the pistol grip use you thumb
and put 8 ounces of down pressure on the stock at the pistol grip. I don't hold the pistol grip except for the thumb and have the rest of the hand lying
along side the grip with only the trigger finger and thumb touching the gun. If you have to pinch the bag to move the cross hair more than a * inch then
reposition the rifle and start over.
Having given the way I use the bag I will say that if your technique is right and you still get vertical stringing then you are not shooting enough powder.
That will give you vertical stringing. That is why we load at the range during competition .
A 308 is a difficult caliber to master and the secret is to do the same thing every shot. With the heavy recoil of the 308 it wants to change position in
the bags each time and you have to be on your toes to get it to shoot well. I shot one at the Nationals in 87 or 88 and was able to end up in the top
twenty and felt real lucky. What ever you do don't try free recoil as it will compound your problem. Feel free to email me anytime if you have a question

Posted: 11-23-1999 12:47 PM
You have to equate the price of barrels with the price of owning a high performance rifle just like you do the powder and bullets you shoot. If one
doesn't want to wear out barrels he had better confine his shooting to rim fires. When you look at it that it takes the same amount of money to replace
a barrel as it does to buy the bullets you shot to wear it out it doesn't seem so bad. Having said that , the high velocity 22s are as hard on barrels as
your 300. The 6mms don't do much better The 223 will go between 3500 and 4000 rounds before accuracy starts to go but again you can't call it a
long range rifle. A good rule of thumb is barrel life is consistent with the pounds of powder you shoot regardless of caliber.

Posted: 10-27-1999 12:54 PM
I have posted on this subject several times and don't want to sound like a broken record but for the sake of an answer I will repeat it.
All lens whether they be Leupold ,Burris or Tasco have the prescriptions figured on the same computer program. They all have the same glass(several
different types in each scope) They are ground on the same type computerized machines and all have the same coating so there is very little
difference in any make of scope lens and all are better than what the eye can resolve. So the only place a company can cut expenses so that they
can sell for less is in the manufacture of the metal parts and the quality control of the assembly. Two places you want good work!
You asked about Leupold. The warrantee expenses are added into the cost of the scope and they give the best warrantee in the business. Life of the
scope regardless if you are the original owner or not. Good turn around and if you ever try to get warrantee repair on a 50 dollar import you will wait
forever. Generally till it is returned to the manufacturer in the far east. When you think that there is 20% duty and shipping charges added to the cheap
scope you can really see what it is worth. Your 50 dollar Bushnell has at least 2 levels of pricing plus duty and shipping so the scope really worth 25
dollars and what would you expect out of a 25 dollar scope. Most people overlook the most important aspect of the cost of a scope. You generally
spend more on a hunting trip than you do a scope and if your scope lets you down are out the cost of the hunt and possibly the biggest trophy of you

Posted: 10-02-1999 02:08 PM
The height of the scope above the bore is determined by the drop in the stock. Mount the scope so that when you shoulder the rifle with your eyes
closed and open them you are looking through the scope with perfect height and eye relief . If you are stocking the rifle then you have the choice of
how far above the bore line you can mount the scope. The other thing that will have some effect on scope height is the diameter of the objective bell.
The bigger the bell the higher the scope.

Posted: 10-16-1999 11:25 PM
There is only two ways to focus a scope. The first and most common is to move the objective lens in or out to focus it at a particular distance and the
other is to move the erector cell forward or back to focus it, this is the method Leupold uses with the adjustment on the left side of the adjustment
turret. Most scopes are focused at a set distance where it is parallax free at the time of manufacture. Generally 100 or 150 yds If you want to shoot at
close range where the scope wont focus you have to have the objective screwed out . Usually you can send it back to the manufacturer and they will
do it at a small cost

Posted: 10-15-1999 12:59 PM
I am not making excuses for the industry but can give a few reasons for the decline in some companies. Wages and material costs have passed the
price level of most guns so the only way they can stay in business is crank them out faster with less QC If they raise prices they won't sell and they
go out of business. A real catch 22. Small companies like ours are able to command a price that allows us to put the quality into our work and make a
small profit. That is For the time being. We can't sell to every one due to our prices but there is enough of a market out there who will pay the money
for high quality work to keep us in business, When our quality has to suffer is the day we lock our doors.

Posted: 09-25-1999 10:10
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he
shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer
was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they
change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you
will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that
has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it
ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This
means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20
rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is
shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the
flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you
are spending during break in

Posted: 09-25-1999 07:52 PM
I answered this and lost it on transfer so will shorten this one and try to get my point across in fewer words. When some one uses JB on one of my
rifles I void the warrantee! For two reasons. ! it dimensionally alters the barrel dimensions and not evenly and the second reason is the barrel maker
laps the barrel with a grit of lapping compound that is most effective in preventing metal fouling. Then a customer polishes that finish away with JB.
I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the
sharp edges are worn off the rifling. if it has JB used on it on a regular basis. As you know ,it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. As for using it on
factory barrels I will say that while it is difficult to hurt a production barrel but the thing that hurts a match barrel will do the same to a factory barrel

Posted: 09-27-1999 09:48 PM
Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times
and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the
corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which
means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel
which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing
material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came
to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when
it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish
the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is
gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the
aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how
happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it
was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling
wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee.
Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than
barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you
doubt this look at the carbide eye on yout fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it.

Posted: 09-22-1999 12:16
Art, we live in the last of the twentieth century! Wood was fine for ox bows and shovel handles and work well in a fire place on a cold damp evening
but on a gun Never! Why would you want to handicap your self with a wood gun stock. That is unless you want to re zero your rifle every time you
take it out of the gun cabinet.

Posted: 09-26-1999 10:07
Please! the word is fiberglass not plastic!! I will tell you a story that happened to a customer of mine. A few years ago I got a call from a Secret Service
agent who uses my stocks in performance of his job. He said "Mac I just got back from Alaska bear hunting. It rained on us for the first week and then
it cleared and the guide took us to a new area where he thought we could score. They came upon the largest bear the guide had ever seen and
would score high in the Boone & Crochet and maybe break the world record, He said he pulled down on it and fired and the bullet hit 2 feet in front of it
and a foot low.. They went back to camp and checked the zero and sure enough that was where it was shooting. His comment to me was Mac, I
knew I should have you restock my rifle before I went but the hunt cost so much I just didn't want to spend the money at that time and I will never get
an other chance to get that world record bear. The point of this story is you don't ever know what it will cost you by leaving that piece of wood on

Posted: 09-22-1999 10:29
When an action is made the scope mounting holes are drilled prior to heat treating the action. All actions warp to some degree during heat treat which
means the holes which were true when drilled are not when you mount the scope . A one piece mount will more or less seek a medium and be more
true than two piece mounts but can spring the scope tube when you clamp the scope down. This is the cause of 90 percent of scope trouble. That is
why knowledgeable smiths lap the rings in after the rings have been installed. I prefer two piece mounts that have been lapped in

Posted: 09-22-1999 03:56 PM
No problem at all. If you are mounting a 1 inch scope use a 1 inch round bar of Aluminum 18 inches long. Mount the lower half of the rings and tighten
them as they are to remain on the gun . Put some 240 grit lapping compound available in any automotive store in the saddles and put the 1 inch rod in
the saddles like it was a scope. With the palm of your hand push the bar back and forth while rotating it at the same time keeping a down pressure on
it at the same time. After a few strokes remove the bar and wipe clean so you can see where it is cutting. Its easy to see because the bluing will be
gone where it contacts the bar. Put more compound on and continue till the saddle is free of finish and you can tell it is straight. Wipe the compound out
of the saddles but don't worry if it feels rough as that will keep the scope from slipping in the rings. As I said in my earlier post when you tighten a
scope down in a mal aligned mount the rear ring is over the pivot point of the erector cell and any binding will cause a change of point of impact and
erratic adjustment.

Posted: 09-12-1999 11:35
While there is good arguments in favor of the Savage if a production rifle will meet your future requirements but I always urge a new buyer to consider
as far into the future as he can and make the procurement of a rifle a long term project. What I mean by that is to start with something to build on. I
recommend starting with an action that over time he can build a system which will meet all his requirements. My choice is a Rem. Pick up a cheap one
used if he can, Shoot it until he is able to get the most out of it that it can give and then upgrade as finances will allow. With the installation of a good
fiberglass stock, blueprint the action, and installation of a match grade barrel and he will have a rifle equal to any custom rifle and for one heck of a lot
less money spent over a longer period of time. You might say that it is easy for me to say as I make my living from stocks and rifles so I am prejudiced
to that point of view. To that I say that having spent a career in the military when any purchase was a long time effort that I still think like a poor man
and understand how difficult it is to make large purchases when your busy raising a family with all its expenses. The approach that I lined out will be
by far the cheapest way for a shooter to wind up with what he will be satisfied with rather than buy what he can afford and keep replacing it till he
gets what will finally satisfy him.
Gale McMillan

Posted: 09-14-1999 08:21 PM
When deciding where to take your business the best price is the equation. You spend your money at Wallmark and they box it up and send it to
Arkansas. If you need personalized service you can't go back to only one part of where you bought it as a woman sold it to you who was taxed to the
limit to operate the cash register . Normally when you go to a gun shop you are dealing with a small operator who is knowledgeable about the product,
he wants your business and will be there when something is needed in the way of support. He spends the money you give him in your community and
his taxes help to educate your kids. What I am trying to say is sometimes the bottom line is not what's best for you. If you continue to bypass him he is
not going to be there when you need him!
dZ is offline  
Page generated in 0.06381 seconds with 7 queries