Thread: when to pull?
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:54 PM   #57
totaldla
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Join Date: August 10, 2009
Posts: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla
...Every state considers employing a handgun to be lethal force and the outcome of such force is death....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Yes, a handgun is lethal force. But the outcome of the use of lethal force is not necessarily death. In the law, lethal force is viewed as force likely to cause death or great bodily injury.
Are you saying that you are holding out hope that your use of lethal force will not result in death? If so, then why are you using lethal force in the first place? Better think that through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Effectively stopping an assailant who has manifest the intent and ability to cause you death or great bodily injury will most likely require that you use a degree of force likely to cause death or great bodily injury. But that is not the same thing as intending to kill.
Seriously? You shoot at a BG and want to tell me with a straight face that you meant for him to live long and prosper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla
...From a criminal law perspective, you have demonstrated intent to kill when you employed a firearm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Provide some citation to proper legal authority for that contention. It is, in fact, not true.
Lets think for a moment, suppose I pointed a banana at you and said "Give me all your hope and change!" - pretty difficult to determine my intentions right? Lets replace the banana with a gun. Now what do you think about my intentions? Suddenly it becomes more clear - why? Because pointing a firearm at you, (a device designed and employed to kill), has signaled what a reasonable person would interpret as my intention to kill.

Point a banana at a Cop and you'll get checked out. Point a firearm at a Cop and you'll get your own body bag. That's my "citation to proper legal authority" for today.


Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla

Quote:
Originally Posted by totaldla
...I'm harping on this because "shoot to stop", a PC phrase, can mislead folks in a bad way...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Not true. All established trainers and school talk in terms of shooting to stop.
Yep and everybody gravitates towards the biggest caliber, the nastiest hollowpoints and trains for a magazine full of center of mass hits because they want the bad guy to just "stop". Yep. Uh-huh. Sure. You-betcha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael4yah
...You cant draw a weapon and have all these "Less than lethal" ideas running through your head...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
You have completely failed to understand the point. No one has suggested any "less than lethal" ideas. If one effectively employs a gun to stop a potentially lethal threat, the death of the assailant is a highly likely result. But that's not necessarily the intended result. The intended result is that the attack is stopped. If the attack stops and the assailant survives, your legitimate purpose has been fulfilled.
Frank, I believe Michael4yah is exactly right. Using a lethal weapon is serious business and if folks don't want to belly up to the bar and be clear about what they are doing, ... well then I don't think folks should be carrying weapons - there are non-lethal options.
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