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Old September 15, 2011, 06:10 PM   #97
Bill Akins
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Join Date: August 28, 2007
Location: Hudson, Florida
Posts: 1,031
Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
I'd have to say that one would have to stick with the harmonica block (as a charging device) with built in percussion nipples, or otherwise you wouldn't have a muzzleloader. Strickly speaking, however, I don't know that you would absolutely have to use black powder just because it's a muzzleloader, provided it is built to withstand smokeless pressures.
If we are talking about a hi capacity ammunition weapon, I agree Blue Train that if it is going to be a muzzleloader, the muzzleloaded, percussion nipple for each chamber, harmonica block is the best method to use. I also agree that if the metal the weapon was made out of were modern steels designed to hold the pressures of modern smokeless powders, then it could use smokeless powder instead of or in addition to standard black powder or black powder substitute powders.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
I had mentioned that I was seeing as a shoulder fired weapon but you somewhere were thinking of it as a tripod mounted, heavier weapon. Naturally that makes a big difference. Without going into specifics, it should go without saying that when the weapon is heavier and even more so if the caliber, meaning bore diameter, is larger, it changes the dynamics of the whole operation. For one thing, extra weight will tend to dampen the recoil, which is a good thing, for it looks like a front-end loaded harmonica charger primed with percussion caps would take a lot of thrashing about and still be reliable.
We've been discussing rapid fire muzzleloading weapons of all kinds. Shoulder fired rifles, revolvers and tripod/carriage mounted muzzloaders. The main factor them all being rapid fire. Again I agree with you that the harmonica block would seem to be the best method for a high ammunition capacity muzzleloader that fires rapidly.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
Both the cap and the charge and bullet have to stay in place. So that lets out any form of recoil system to make the thing work. One probably couldn't think of it in the same way as the Webley-Fosbery.
You could be right about that Blue Train and I share those concerns of yours. And that's the only drawback and fear I have about utilizing the Webley Fosbery type of cylinder in my revolver concept. That the recoiling cylinder might force the ball in the chambers forward or pull the cap off the nipple as the cylinder goes back forward after recoiling. I would hope that tight caps would hold onto the nipples, and that .454 balls tightly squeezed into the chambers would hold the balls in place, but unless and until one was built and tested, there's no way to know for sure.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
A gas system is about all that's left, I guess. But there's hope but it looks like a fresh design is in order.
That's why input from you and others to discuss the designs is so helpful.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
There have been gas operated systems utilizing something other than a box magazine. The Lewis Gun comes to mind.
But we can't utilize a horizontally configured circle of cartridge ammunition like the Lewis gun used, because since we are using muzzle loaded chambers, those chambers would be pointed in a 360 degree circle like some unsuccessful early percussion revolvers that utilized a horizontal rotating circle of chambers where chambers were pointed directly back towards the shooters rather than a more common vertical circle of chambers.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
The idea here is to come up with something that will make the thing work without a violent action.
Exactly.

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
I think the real challenge of this project is to devise a system that will operate semi-automatically using the proposed charging system of a harmonica block.
I totally agree and my thoughts exactly Blue Train. At least when we are talking about either a shoulder fired or tripod mounted high ammunition capacity, muzzleloading weapon concept. The muzzleloading, one hand held, semi-auto revolver concept can of course continue to use a limited shot capacity round cylinder rather than a high capacity harmonica block.[/quote]

Quote:
Blue Train wrote:
Well, that's it. I'm all out of ideas except that I'm starting to think of accordians and I'm sure there's something useful we could come up with along those lines.
You mean like the Da Vinci accordion guns? And like the multiple barrels in a row fired sequentially by a common fuse train between the barrels and used during the American civil war to protect covered bridges?

Please share you thoughts on how you think accordions might be helpful in the muzzleloading semi-auto or full auto applications we are discussing. Love to hear them.

Thanks for your thoughts and input, keep it coming!



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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 15, 2011 at 10:29 PM.
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