Let me be the first to welcome you to The Firing Line Forums Akumabito.
Hiya everyone, Akumabito here from the BrassGoggles forum. I just signed up here because of Bill's project. Thought that this place was better suited to in-depth discussion of firearm tech than the steampunk forum I normally post in. I gotta say I just like bouncing ideas back and forth. I don't actually know a whole lot about firearms. So I guess my quick renderings are what happens when "non-gun-people" start shouting suggestions on gun smithing..
I should probably also add that I've only shot a few guns in my life, and that was quite a few years ago.. Plus, I've never fired a black powder revolver before, nor have I ever even seen an 1858 model revolver in real life, so my understanding of how they fit together and work pretty much comes from pictures on the net and a few YouTube videos. I just enjoy crazy mental excercises I suppose.. and it doesn't get much crazier than an automatic revolver..
Anyhow, could anyone tell me what the diameter is of the pin that holds the cylinder in place? And is there enough material in the frame of the gun as well as the cylinder to drill a slightly larger hole there? For an all-internal solution, I'm pretty sure you'd need a little more space to work with..
By the way, I just discovered that there are no new things under the Sun: I just came across US Patent 4,197,784 - Pretty much the same idea, only in over-barrel style, rather than underneath.. I could not find any references to any prototypes being built, but I suppose it works without causing damage to the gun by cycling too quickly.
Glad to see you here.
For someone who says they don't know much about firearms, has only shot a few guns in their life, never fired a black powder revolver and never actually seen nor held a 1858 Remington revolver.....you certainly do well at grasping gun concepts, conceiving your own gun concepts and doing gun renderings. You're a naturally gifted engineer and you'll fit right in here.
I don't know if the Netherlands allow you to own a muzzleloading revolver, but if they do, after you are here for awhile and learn more about them, you'll be wanting to get one of your own.
To answer your question on the diameter of the cylinder's arbor pin, I haven't used a micrometer on it, so I don't know its exact diameter, but it's approx
1/4 inch in diameter. On its rounded rear end area the pin is totally round for approx
11/16's of an inch in length. But after that the entire arbor pin is stepped to a flattened bottom for the rest of most of its length. The hole in the frame for the arbor pin is totally round though where we would want to make the gas cylinder. I don't think you would need to drill out a larger area either in the frame nor the cylinder for what we are conceiving of doing. The cylinder is fine like it is and although the frame area that we want to make be a gas cylinder is small, it will work as long as a short stroke piston (ala M1 carbine) is used rather than a long stroke piston. Because the gas cylinder would be no longer than 3/4 to 1 inch in length....necessitating a short stroke inertia type piston.
I looked up patent #4,197,784 that you mentioned and found a picture of it that I posted below. Showing its over the barrel gas cylinder and piston to modify a cartridge revolver to semi-auto action. But we must remember, that without a working prototype, we don't know if this patent would have worked well or at all considering the concerns needed to slow down the operation to prevent breaking and galling of metal parts that were originally designed to be operated at slow manual speeds. It's concept may work, or may work temporarily until stress breaks or damages parts, or might not work at all. Without a working prototype put to repeated tests to find out, we just don't know how valid the operation of this patent would be.
Although the above was an over the barrel gas piston for a cartridge
revolver, it was remarkably similar to your concept for an over the barrel "AK" gas cylinder for modifying the 1858 Remington muzzleloading revolver into a semi-auto action.....
Your rendering at the Steampunk brass goggles forum for a shock absorbing gas piston/cylinder that could help to delay the action is very good too. Although unfortunately there is not enough room to use it if we used your concept of using the frame of the 1858 Remington modified to be a gas cylinder. But it definitely could be used in an over the barrel gas cylinder. Your rendering was a good idea for slowing down a gas piston's operative speed.......
Again, for someone who claims to not know much about guns, you have the mind of a firearms engineer! I understand what your rendering concept does. The first segment of the piston comes back and compresses a spring, then for the time it takes to compress that spring, and before that spring being compressed works to move the secondary segment piston to the rear against another spring, there is a delay caused by virtue of the first spring has to become tensioned enough to move the secondary piston segment. This gives the necessary delay needed to soften the operation and lower the speed. Then as that first spring compresses, when it reaches a certain point of compression, it will press against and cause the secondary piston segment to move rearward where that secondary piston segment also compresses a spring even further slowing the action down on the secondary piston segment before it cocks the hammer. You continue to impress me with your concepts Akumabito. If you aren't an engineer, you should be. Strike that, no matter what your vocation is, you are still a naturally gifted engineer!
Akumabito, this evening I took a lot of pictures of my 1858 Remington to try and show how it could be modified to your first concept below....
But it's very late here, I'm tired, and will have to post them in a following post.