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Old September 4, 2011, 11:29 AM   #68
Jo6pak
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Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,462
Thanks for the comments and the critizism, Bill. I'll try to address some of the critiques, and explain my train of thought a bit better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Visualize the full weight of a vertical or angle fed 50 to 100 chamber harmonica block being completely just supported by the lug which engages the zig zag slots. Also visualize the vertically or angle fed harmonica block hitting the ground before it was supposed to. Not an optimum situation.
I hadn't considered the weight issue, good point. I guess I was thinking more or a 15-30 round harmonica block, which in my simple estimation (using .50cal. as a basis) would be ~12-24" long. But weight, I imagine could still be a factor.

My main reason for making the harmonica block vertical is to align it better with the operating system but, after re-thinking it, this adaption is not really neccesary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
By the way, one of the German semi-automatic rifles from WW2 used the same (many decades done before by Browning), gas trapping cup on the end of the barrel to actuate the action. If memory serves me, I think it was the Walther rifle, but can't precisely remember the name for sure.
Walther Gew. 41(W)
"Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" by Ian Hogg
...The Walther Gew.41 was adopted, a gas-operated rifle using the rather crude Bang system in which gas was defelected by a muzzle cap to turn back and strike as annular piston around the barrel and so move the piston rod...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Good idea Jo. So instead of using blowback forces to blow the muzzleloading harmonica block (or the cylinder in a revolving handgun) rearward, causing the lug to travel in the zig zag slots, you suggest instead using a gas operated lever to actuate that...
...Also if we used gas operation, the zig zag slots on the harmonica block would be unnecessary since the harmonica block wouldn't have to blowback to advance. The gas system could actuate an internal receiver gear which advanced the harmonica block rack gear without the harmonica block having to move rearward at all. Which would be great.
Yes, that would be much simpler. I tend to get a little exotic with my ideas sometime. (Blame my dyslexia) I envisioned all the operating elements to be externally mounted on top of the receiver. Now the more I think of it, that is an emmensely complicated and fragile way find function

Quote:
Kind of like a rack and pinion gear system on a car. No zig zag slots or harmonica block rearward movement necessary to advance to the next chamber. All done by a gas piston or direct gas impingement against an internal gear that engages the gear rack on the bottom or top of the harmonica block.
Now, I'm seeing it.
In my idea the harmonica block would not recoil itself, it would be the operating rods movement along the zig-zag in the harmonica block that would initiate the axial movement. Kinda the opposite of the Webley-Fosberg action. But again, I see this is overly complicating the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Hmmm, I'm deviating a bit from your original idea of a piston actuating the zig zag slots, but your description is causing me to get some good and even better ideas here than I had before Jo. Thanks!
No problem iith a little deviation. As with any mechanical design project it's all about evolution of the idea. Invention is less about finding out what works, and more about eliminating all the things that don't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
I can visualize what you are describing about the chambers being bored at an angle in the straight rectangular harmonica block Jo, but could you please explain a bit more how that would aid the action? I'm having trouble tracking on visualizing what you are talking about there and what the purpose of those angle bored cylinders would be for.
Man, I wish I had visuals to help me explain myself
If you've followned my crazy concept this far you may also see where I trying to go with this. I thought that canting the harmonica block forward would assist in transfering the rearwad movement of the "op-rod" to lateral movement of the harmonica block.
Imagine a pump action shotgun. The action bars on the sides of the pump ride in the zig-zag cuts on the harmonica block, which moves it laterally as the action is cycled. By canting the harmonica block, it would reduce the torque on the block and maybe aid reliability.


As for ignition... So you are having the percussion caps already fixed to the harmonical block, and not a seperate part of the action?
I overlooked that part and again overthought it
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