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Old December 1, 2009, 10:23 AM   #101
Frank Ettin
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Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
...It is the attitude that has been expressed time after time that it is just fine to arrest someone....
What you don't seem to get it that I, at least, really don't care what you do. I have no problem with the lawful possession of NFA weapons, I fully understand that private citizens can legally own them. What I have described in numerous posts here is simply the way the law in fact works.

If you are openly and obviously in possession of an NFA weapon and can not show an LEO that you are in lawful possession of that item, he will have probable cause to arrest you. And if you were to complain to a judge, the judge will support the LEO. That is just reality.

I make no judgment about whether that is good or bad. It's the way it is.

I don't care what you do with that information. You might conclude that it would be in your best interest to carry a copy of you NFA paperwork with the weapon. In that way, if you are contacted by an LEO about the weapon you can quickly and easily establish your lawful ownership and go on about your business. But if your idea of a good time is to spend the day getting handcuffed, stuffed into the backseat of a police car and driven "downtown" where you can continue to hassle with the cops, that's fine too. It's your choice. My only interest is that it be an informed choice.

I've never said there is any statute that requires you to carry your paperwork with you when you have the gun in your possession. I've never said that there's any statute that requires you to display your paperwork to anyone other than an ATF agent.

What I have done is explain how probable cause works, how the presumption of innocence works, and what an affirmative defense is and how it works. This is all basic law of general application that I first learned over 30 years ago in my Criminal Procedure class in law school.

It's the way it is. Do what you please with the information.

If you don't like what the law is, write your Congressman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
...It is crystal clear that most are willing to play along with the new set of made up rules..... But that is not the law no matter how many people *think* it is the law....
What new rules?

Probable cause, the presumption of innocence, and affirmative defenses are as I've described. These aren't new rules. Things have been done that way, and the law has been thus, for a long time. It works that way for everything -- not just Title II weapons.

I don't know where or how you've learned what you think is the law. I've learned what I know of the law in law school and by being a member of the bar and practicing law for over 30 years. As a shooter and firearms instructor, I have a special interest in gun law and use of force law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
...You are fine with legal citizens exercising 2nd Amendment rights being arrested based on nothing more than suspicion....
An LEO in general has the power to arrest someone when he has probable cause to believe that person has violated the law. "Probable cause" is "sufficient reason based upon known facts to believe a crime has been committed or that certain property is connected with a crime...."

Yes, I'm okay with that. It's been that way for a very long time and makes good sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
...Our worst enemy is not the Brady group... It is the gun owner that thinks assault weapons should be banned, and that MG's are illegal. And saying it is fine to arrest someone just because they have a title II item and not following some made up "law" is perpetuating that stereotypical thought process....
And this is of course utter nonsense. It's clear that you haven't really been paying attention. You want things to be a certain way. They aren't the way you want them to be. Sorry, but that's life.
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