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Old July 30, 2009, 11:21 PM   #77
Frank Ettin
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Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
Where is the empirical data to show that people from states with less stringent training requirements are less safe than people from states with more stringent training requirements?...
You miss the point. It doesn't matter. This is a political issue, and perception is important. Try selling your analysis to the legislature or a court and let us know how far you get.

To repeat myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown
...The reality is that we have training requirements in a number of states, and the lack of comparable training requirements in some other states prevents CCWs from those other states from being honored in certain states with training requirements. The states with training requirements aren't going to abandon them, nor is it likely that the political and demographic circumstances in those states would support recognition of CCWs from states without training requirements. It fully appears that in many cases a training requirement is the political trade off for a "shall issue" CCW arrangement and/or reciprocal recognition of CCWs.
If you think you can change things, have at it.

I frequently hear (or see in print) someone saying something like, "The politicians don't trust me with guns" or "The government won't trust us with gun."

Actually, I doubt that the politicians really care. They live lives so removed from the rest of us, our guns aren't really much of a factor for them personally. What they care about is getting and keeping their jobs.

So what it comes down to is that enough of our neighbors, enough of the people in our community, enough of the people in our town, enough of the people in our county, enough of the people in our state, and enough of the people in our country don't like guns, and don't trust the rest of us with them, that politicians who take anti-gun stands can get elected and re-elected (and bureaucrats who take anti-gun stands can keep their jobs).

So we need to remember that part of the battle for our gun rights needs to be waged with our fiends and neighbors in our communities. So if we need to convince our skeptical neighbors that it's okay for us to be carrying loaded guns in public by showing that we are trained and know what we are doing, that may be be political price of "shall issue."

Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
Check out this article, which nicely puts the VPC's study in perspective: http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...ights-Examiner..
It only puts the VPC's study "nicely in perspective" if it is accepted by skeptical, non-gun folks. The fact that we may like it is meaningless. We're biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
...We are only going to protect our rights in the long run if packing and having guns is something normal people do....
Nonsense. I'm normal. The people in my classes at Gunsite have been normal. There are many normal people who also take the need for training and being a responsible gun owner seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
Of course stringent training requirements will also impact those most heavily who are busy and poor...
If people are serious about it, they will find a way. If they're not serious about it, should they be carrying a loaded weapon around in public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
...VPC can trumpet the small number of incidents that have occurred,...
As som of us have pointed out, it can only take a few to change things for the worse for us. In many states the body politic has little tolerance for incidents involving guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by green-grizzly
...state legislature keeps liberalizing the state’s gun laws....
Where and how. In a few state, perhaps. But there sure hasn't been any recent great rush to liberalize gun laws in the majority of states. How have the gun laws been liberalized in Maryland, Illinois, Massachusetts or New York recently?
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