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View Full Version : Ban of "Cheater Guns" For hunting?


Zorro
January 21, 2002, 10:45 PM
Aren't there too many cheater guns in Black Powder hunting now?

Let's face it In-Line fired "Magnum" Black Powder Rifles with scopes just aren't REALLY! Primitive weapons.

Shouldn't the hunting laws be re-written to say something like "Black powder Rifle MEANS! Open sites ONLY!

Hammer fired ONLY! (In Line Ignition is SPECIFICLY BANNED)

Hand poured Powder ONLY! (Pellets are Banned)

Lead Bullets ONLY! (All Copper bullets AND/OR SABOTS are Banned.

Blued or Browned CARBON STEEL ONLY! Stainless Steel is SPECIFICLY Banned. Chrome lined Carbon Steel Bores are OK.

Wood Stock ONLY! All other materials are BANNED. One exception Laminated Wood is considered wood.

Any inclusion of any banned item listed above classifies the "Primitive Weapon" as a Modern Shotgun.


Just a suggested re-write of current Hunting Laws.

Fred Hansen
January 22, 2002, 01:59 AM
Yeah! We need a whole $h**load more laws right #^@&*" now!
There isn't enough, "I envy that person over there so I need more laws to make me happy!" stuff going on already.

Count me out.:barf: :barf:

I don't own an inline, nor will I in the future, but I also don't have enough free time in my life to spend time advocating for more hunting restrictions.

jpm63
January 22, 2002, 11:01 AM
I don't really want to debate this - suffice to say that the state DNR or equivalent which sets the rules (not really laws) for hunting can decide if they want a primative season (PA Flintlock only style) or just a ML season (MI style). Entirely up to them and they usually listen to the voters.

Either way, I am shooting my Lyman GPR in regular rifle season;)

JPM

Fred S
January 22, 2002, 04:50 PM
Hey, if you don't want to use a stanless steel in line magnum fancy gun. Don't. But if someone else wants to let 'em.

Mike Irwin
January 22, 2002, 05:17 PM
I'm still cheezed at Pennsylvania banning maxi balls for primitive season, given that it very likely has led to an increase in wounded, unrecovered, deer.

retiredsgt
January 22, 2002, 08:27 PM
I recall back in the mid 70's when the Bowhunters were very opposed to the new "Compound Bows" being allowed for the bow season. Now if you can find a bowhunter shooting a longbow or recurve, --well you get the idea.
There ain't that many of "us Hunters" out there, so why the in fighting??? ;)

Salt
January 23, 2002, 02:29 AM
A traditional ML can be as accurrate and dependable as a modern inline. The hunter must take the time to practice at the range to really learn the traditional ML rifle.

Problem is that many hunters do not want to shoot much at all. In fact many of them will buy a box of cartridges for their modern .30-06 rifle and that 20rd box of cartridges can last a decade.

These guys will not take the time to learn how to shoot traditional ML rifles and thus manufacturers have created the modern inline muzzle-loaders.

Personaly I wish these slobs would just quit hunting because they are the real reason for crippled game.

JimmyDee
January 23, 2002, 04:52 AM
Zorro, just what is it you object to? At first it seemed that you wanted to step back to the 18th century, but then you said, "chrome lined carbon steel bores are OK." Hmmm... Please, don't tell me that it's mere appearance that counts!

(BTW, RetiredSgt, I used to use a compound; I'm much happier with my longbow and a split-finger tab.)

ed mason
January 23, 2002, 11:58 AM
I think that anything that gets a hunter into hunting is a good thing.After all you are on a internet sight called
www.thefiringline.com that's main goal is to support the RKBA (right to keep and bear arms.).What you are suggesting is that
we not get hunters interested into hunting and to help fuel the anti gunners with more propaganda.

I posted my thoughts on this several weeks ago.Although I like flintlock rifles , I still feel there is a place in the field for inline
guns.If you don't like them then don't buy one but don't put down a fellow hunter just because that is what he is into.How
would you feel if a inline hunter wanted to ban side locks because he did not like them?

Maybe the answer lies in the fact they states should open up a season just for flintlocks in addition to the muzzleader season.

respectfully submitted

Nodakmarine
January 23, 2002, 07:38 PM
Well, I guess I'm more of a traditionalist (I prefer my 1853 Enfield and .45 Hawkin) and think that the in-line rifles lack the challenge that a side-hammer gun offers, especially when they are using scopes on them. Now do I think in-line rifles or scopes on muzzle loader should be banned? No. I do think though that they should be allowed but only during regular rifle season with percussion and flint locks only allowed during the muzzle loader season. I guess my opinion is just that, an opinion and if they want to hunt with a modern muzzle loader, well, that's their thing. I just like to know that I can hunt with a rifle like the original hunters here did a hunderd years ago and before the gadgets came.

retiredsgt
January 24, 2002, 10:38 AM
Jimmydee: Yeah I switched "back": to a longbow about 25 years ago. Haven't hunted much with it in the last 5 to 7 yrs. or so, but I shall!;)

4V50 Gary
January 24, 2002, 07:08 PM
I believe there are some states that will distinguish between flint & percussion, in-lines and others. Canada allows us to bring in a flint, but not the evil 1861 Springfield with its far reaching Minie Ball. Heaven forbid hitting something with regularity at 400 yards plus.

The Rendezvous I use to attend forbid any sights other than open sights that were on the barrel. No rear aperture. Yet, historically, there were some guns (especially amongst the Arabs & Turks) that had rear aperture sights - with several holes to allow for varying distances. Scopes are no-no, yet we know Frederick the Great shot a scoped rifle around 1735. We also know that David Rittenhouse made a scoped rifle for Charles Willson Peale during the American Revolution (see the Peale papers published by Yale University Press).

madmike
January 25, 2002, 11:26 AM
More gun laws. THERE's a great idea.
I shoot traditional only, no sights except a bead. I don't LIKE inlines, but I sure as hell won't tell another shooter his weapon ought to be banned.


On the other matter...real bows don't have training wheels.

And only a student bow should draw less than 75 lbs. Men start at 90 lbs and go up from there.

In fact, if you REALLY want to shoot longbow, the accepted standard (according to the May Rose recovery) is 120 lbs. I think we should ban anything under the minimum recovered example of 87 lbs as "not a REAL longbow."

Any takers?

tongue firmly in cheek.

keano44
January 25, 2002, 01:42 PM
Zorro,

Do you drive a vehicle (car, truck, motorboat, ATV) to go hunting, or do you walk, ride a horse, or paddle a birchbark canoe?

Why does it bother you what others do as long as it is legal?
I hunt with a modern in-line muzzleloader during MUZZLELOADER season in Louisiana. However, when these seasons were started here, regular rifle season was shortened so we could have this muzzleloader season. It was promoted as additional hunting season in the beginning, but gradually, over the years, the regular rifle season was started later, and ended sooner to make room for an early and late muzzleloader season. Basically, it is just an excuse to sell an additional lisence.

It seems your beef is with the WORDING of the laws(muzzleloader vs. primitive weapons), a technicality.

retiredsgt
January 25, 2002, 02:47 PM
Madmike: It is certainly good to hear that someone knows of the Mary Rose. Thanks to you, I do believe I shall take out my copy of "Tembo" and watch it tonight.;)

4V50 Gary
January 25, 2002, 04:44 PM
Well, if it comes down to cheat'n, I'd be happy to take a civil war minie ball rifle and build it into a flintlock or a "trade" musket - albeit a rifled one.

Brian Williams
January 25, 2002, 04:54 PM
Mike Irwin
you can be stilled the great and mighty PA game comission has deemed us in need of the maxi ball but still limits us to the venerable old flint, which I think is as much of a cause for lost game than the round ball. I would like to see PA allow the use of percussion.

Salt
January 25, 2002, 09:43 PM
A quality flintlock can be every bit as reliable as a caplock when the operator knows what they are doing.

In fact a properly made flintlock rifle will have a faster lock time than the average percussion rifle, though we are talking custom flintlock rifles here as the manufactured flintlock rifles are just not up to par. The vent holes on many manufactured flintlock rifles are just too low to the flash pan. There would be a faster ignition if the vent holes were moved up just a bit (Fire arcs upward).


http://www.nmlra.org

National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association

Salt
January 25, 2002, 09:54 PM
When building a decent flintlock rifle, go with Siler locks.


http://www.nmlra.org/

4V50 Gary
January 26, 2002, 11:25 AM
I know of no scientific tests that show that either flintlock or percussion is faster. The Historic Arms Making Journal (NMLRA publication) does have one article wherein they test the speed of several flintlocks including the fancier roller bearing frizzen models that the English were exporting heavily between 1810-1830s. They were no faster than the normal flintlock.

My experience, for whatever it's worth, is that a flintlock can be just as fast as a percussion and it's a matter of the shooter ensuring the flint is snug in the jaws (I prefer lead for a clamp as it conforms to the flint's shape), clean flashhole, pan & frizzen (hammer/steel/battery).

Salt
January 27, 2002, 12:19 AM
I recommend Siler locks for the overall quality. Don't like the lock that came on my Lyman Great Plains rifle as much as I like those siler locks.
Having picked up an associates custom made flintlock rifle, I am no longer satisfied with the manufactured rifles.

Anyway, I read in an old issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine where the author was able to speed up the locktime by having the vent hole placed higher up to the flashpan than what is conventional for the manufacturers. The theory is that fire arc upwards and that by placing the vent hole just a little bit high, the flame will reach it that much faster.

I wish I could quote the issue number of Muzzle Blasts magazine for that article, but I keep giving away my old copies to my friends.

BluRidgDav
January 29, 2002, 10:05 AM
It's probably too late to put the "traditional" back into muzzleloader or archery hunting. A few states have tried, and were sued into submission by the "in-line" crowd. Same thing would happen with compound-bows. It is a shame though, that more states didn't have the foresight, to minimize the amount of gamesmanship and rule-stretching that has occured.

Now, some game departments, (where the deer herds aren't as healthy as they could be), are being squeezed from all sides, by all the different "special interest hunter groups", and are being forced to consider shortening all of the different seasons, because of the increased hunter-success-ratios of the (formerly) traditional seasons.

And it has nothing to do with: (1) sour grapes, (2) the 2nd Amendment's RKBA, (3) or more gun laws . . . . .
Actually, I'd like to see them simplify all the regulations and just set a "General Deer Season" (use whatever type weapon you please). I would continue to hunt with my longbow around the more residential areas and with my old musket out in the big woods. Anyone else could use their modern rifles/shotguns with my blessing.

The end result would be a HUGH sale of in-line muzzleloaders and compound-bows by folks who were never really interested in those challenges in the first place.

Good luck and good hunting to all.

kidcoltoutlaw
January 29, 2002, 10:24 AM
snipers used scopes in 1865 and maybe before.i dont like a scope on a muzzle loader but we got to many laws as it is

BluRidgDav
January 29, 2002, 11:28 AM
Again, I'm for less laws, not more, and don't want to ban anything !!!

But "traditional" means using things that were "common" during a certain time period, not things that were rare, or only found in some "Leonardo DeVinchi" (sp?) prototype.

A synthetic-stocked, stainless-steel muzzleloader, with a 3x9X scope, using shotgun primers, to set off Pyrodex pellets, to fire polymer-tipped, jacketed bullets out of plastic sabots, AIN'T traditional !!!

Neither is a compound-bow with 80% let-off, a mechanical release, fiber optic sights, carbon arrows, expanding broadheads, tracking-strings, etc., etc., etc.

If you like to hunt, and are intrigued by such things, then by all means use them and enjoy yourself. I wish you good luck and good hunting. But, don't expect me to support a special season for you. Again, now that the "traditional" seasons have been tech'd into something beyond their original intention. It's time to simplify the regulations, with a General Deer Season, and you'll see most of these "gadgets" fall by the wayside.

Zorro
January 30, 2002, 02:38 AM
My point in creating this thread was to say that an inline fired Magnum Black Powder muzzleloader has more in common with a Mauser Bolt-Action rifle than percussion fired .50 caliber Hawken Rifle.

Chrome lining a barrel offers no extra advantage over historical guns except that it is rust resistant.

Wood warps, Synthetics Don't.

The entire idea behind Primitive weapons seasons is to give Primitive weapon hunters an opportunity to hunt with traditional weapons! Not allow some Yahoo to get first shot at the animals with 200+ yard Modern in all respects except propellant rifles!

A cheater gun is defined by being "Modern in all respects except Propellant!"

4V50 Gary
January 30, 2002, 01:31 PM
Scopes were first extensively used during the American Civil War. Apart from Berdan's Sharpshooters (1 U.S.S.S. and 2nd U.S.S.S.), there were several company sized units who used scoped rifles. These varied anywhere from 16 lbs all the way up to 35 lbs. The Confederates used the Whitworth with the side mounted Davidson telescope.

Use of scopes go back earlier. We know that Capt. Charles Wilson Peale of the Mass (?) Militia had Daven Rittenhouse make a scoped rifle for him during the Revolution. He shot it and it took a while before he sighted it in. Frederick the Great also mentions trying a scoped rifle in his diary. Concerning Da Vinci, I'm trying to find proof that he did (during the siege of Milan).

BluRidgDav
January 30, 2002, 07:48 PM
Hey Zorro,

Even your description, "Modern in all respects except Propellant!" doesn't bring us up to the current state-of-the-art cheater-muzzleloader. In addition to Pyrodex pellets, some company (I think it's Marlin?) has now designed a bolt-action-in-line that uses modern smokeless powder !!!

But, then again, back in 1800-and-something, there was probably an inventor in China, or Paris, or somewhere, that was experimenting with a propellant that made less smoke, so that makes it "traditional" after all.

Now, if only we could figure out a way to hold the primer, powder, and bullet all together in a self-contained package. Maybe a hollowed-out piece of brass would work?

We could call it the "Davey Crockett" model, or the "Jim Bridger"

Salt
January 31, 2002, 03:28 PM
http://www.ninety-eight.net/ibha/flint1.htm#top

Here is the URL to the information on how a flintlock can have as fast or faster locktime than a percussion rifle.

Zorro
February 1, 2002, 12:24 AM
A Cross Referance Between Forums:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99750

BIGR
February 1, 2002, 09:04 PM
If you like using the old style muzzleloader more power to you. My first muzzleloader was a T/C .50 CAL. Hawken. Yea with iron sights I was deadly with it at 100 yards. I carried that ol heavy gun for 4 or 5 years and never had a chance to shoot a deer with it. Due to the very small population of deer I never saw one to shoot at. Late 1990'S we lease some land in another part of the state where there are alot of deer. I buy a T/C Black diamond in line for the ease of cleaning and to have a lighter hunting muzzleloader. Yea I put that cheap 3X9X40 scope on the thing and thought I would try my luck with it. During the black powder hunt I shot at a deer at 80 yards. After the smoke cleared I could see no movement from the fallen deer. I was glad that I had made a clean shot on the deer and wondered if the ol hawken would have done the same. This year I shoot three deer with the Black Diamond. They fell in their tracks as if they had been shot with a large centerfire rifle. Yes I am sure shot placement played a part in the clean kills. I have changed my luck with this in line rifle and shoot it well. This discussion is almost like saying a semi auto rifle shouldn't be used to hunt game. Some would say that the single shot rifle should be the only gun for big game hunting. Use whatever gun you feel comfortable using. It is great to live in a land where we have a choice of types of firearms for hunting. Am I too lazy if I buy a pick up truck with an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission truck. I like my in line muzzleloader and will continue to use it until the wildlife commission bans its use. Have fun with your ol smoke poles and I will do the same with my ultra modern in line blaster. :)

Salt
February 5, 2002, 12:09 AM
That modern inline belongs in the modern rifle season. Yes you caqn use it to shoot all the game that is legal in modern rifle season, but leave the primitive firearms season to the primitive firearms.

If you wonder that the Hawkins rifle will kill at 100yds, then you need to check out this Alaska Grizzley hunt with a .54 Caliber flintolock rifle.

http://www.ninety-eight.net/ibha/grizzly.htm#top

Nodakmarine
February 5, 2002, 10:06 AM
The thing I can't understand is why hunters can use a modern in-line rifle in what is supposed to be a primitive sport but when it comes to other black powder rifles such as a Sharps 1863 or the Smith carbines that are older designs but with a breech loading mechanism, you can't use them in black powder season? I think if those rifles like the Sharps and Smith carbines have to be limited to regular rifle season, this would be something to think about doing wtih the far more modern in-line rifles too. I'm not saying ban their use or anything but limit the type of season they can be used in.

Zorro
February 8, 2002, 11:12 PM
Maybe it should be Period weapons hunts?

Say a pre flintlock hunt for spears, long bows and matchlocks.

And a Pre Smokeless Powder period hunt for all replica black powder firearms?

David Park
February 10, 2002, 12:22 AM
I know next to nothing about hunting or blackpowder/muzzleloaders, but I have two comments anyway:

1. Is it so crowded where some of you hunt that the in-line hunters are shooting deer out from under the "traditional" hunters? My relatives who hunt typically hunt on their own land, and it seems like there's enough deer to go around.

2. One advantage to blackpowder/muzzleloaders is that they are often not considered "firearms" under the law. Therefore if someone couldn't own a "firearm" (too young, former felon, banned in the area) they could still hunt with a "non-firearm." The in-line guns seem popular in my area precisely because there's no hassle to own one.

To know where I'm coming from, I'm currently trying to decide if my FAL would work for hunting if I scoped it. :D When faced with people who want to ban hunting completely, the difference between a general deer season or multiple seasons for each category of weapons seems pretty unimportant.

Gewehr98
February 10, 2002, 10:58 PM
;)

There's still a big difference between the more modern inline ignition muzzle-loaders and somebody's Remington Model 700 in .308.

You have to stuff the propellant down the bore from the muzzle end, stuff a ball or minie or sabot down on top of the charge, put away the ramrod, prime it, and make damned certain you have the perfect shot before you let go with your one chance. You can't rack the bolt, work the lever, pump the action, pull the trigger again for the follow-up shot from the autoloader, or even open the action to throw another cartridge in the breech. Sounds fairly primitive to me!

Positive ignition from using a shotgun primer isn't a bad thing when tromping through the environmental extremes of the great outdoors. Nor is a stainless or chrome bore a bad idea in a muzzleloader. Last I heard, blackpowder is corrosive. Why not save the investment in said gun by using stainless in the construction? If the arms makers of the Civil War had the means to make and machine stainless, you'd bet your bippy they'd have used it.

Folks **** and moan enough times, and look what happens, the government listens, and we get more onerous gun laws, like Mike mentioned with the folks in Pennsylvania. Yippee.

Next thing ya know, my blackpowder cartridge Rolling Block will be banned from the regular rifle deer season, just because somebody doesn't like it...

Zorro
February 14, 2002, 10:54 PM
http://primitivearcher.com/

Vladimir_Berkov
April 24, 2002, 06:47 PM
I think the point is not that people want inlines banned from hunting, but that they do are not the reason why the "primative" season was created. If you want to have multiple hunting seasons, and you want to have a "primative" season then it is obvious that only primative weapons should be used. If the primative season exists just for people to buy stainless steel inlines in order to get a head start on their hunting that year, then it is really pointless.

Personally, I feel there should be one hunting season.

General open season. Use anything you want to hunt. You want to use an AK? Go for it. You want to use a Kentucky rifle? Go for it. Remington 700? Go for it. You might want to have some regulations on caliber, ie no .22 LRs etc, but the type of gun should not matter.

If people REALLY, REALLY want a primative season, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to restrict it to historical weapons. A Remington 700ML is not a primative weapon.

Cornbread2
April 26, 2002, 02:57 PM
In Kentucky and I would think most states the muzzleloading hunting season was started for muzzleloading rifle enthusiasts and buckskinners to have a hunting season to themselves away from modern hunters and modern firearms.

Buckskinners and muzzleloading enthusiasts do not use modern rifles. That is the whole point about buckskinning and shooting muzzleloaders.

Buckskinners shoot muzzleloaders all the time. Some would shoot every day if they could. We shoot more in one week that inline guys do in 10 years.

Inline hunters mostly are not muzzleloader shooters. They only buy the guns to try to hunt in OUR season without bothering to learn to shoot a real rifle. They use what they assume is a better weapon because they think it gives them some advantage over a real rifle.

All the inline does is allow those who can not shoot and are not willing to learn to shoot to be able to hunt with a firearm in our season. This puts more idiots in the woods from NYC that shoot at everything that moves.

People shoot iron sighted modern guns out to 600 yards every day in highpower competition. Some shoot out to 1,000 in the Palma.

Why is it these guys can get hits on a regular basis at 600+ yards but inline shooters must have a scope to hit something the size of a deer at 100 yards?

Why do inline shooters assume you cant kill a deer with a ball.
Unlike a JHP pistol bullet the ball will ALWAYS flatten out or expand. A ball is just as effective as a pistol bullet or in my opinion more so. .50 cal balls recovered from animials are sometimes the size of a quarter. Those that stay in. Most will shoot through and leave a huge exit hole.

Inline hunters are cheating but not with a better weapon. They are cheating by bending the rules so they can hunt in OUR season.

ms1200
April 27, 2002, 10:12 PM
we DONT need any more laws period.i hunt with a tradition hawken. i figure if someone else wants to hunt with the latest wizbang inline with all the bells and whistles, thats not only their choice but their right. their choice in rifles don't bother me& mine shouldn't bother them.

BluRidgDav
April 28, 2002, 09:44 AM
Modern hunting is a sport. In order to preserve this sport, it must have rules. Unfortunately, there are some "hunters"; for which ANY gadget that makes it easier for them to be "successful", is a GOOD gadget, and ANY rule that sets a reasonable boundary within the spirit of fair chase, is AN ONEROUS GUN LAW. I feel sorry for them! Every Patriot has the Right, and the duty, to "turn out" with the latest military small-arm in order to defend family and Freedom. But, I won't stand up and defend your "choice" to head out into the game fields with the most modern weapon that technology can provide.

Remember when we used to be known as "Sportsmen"?

When you head out into the woods and fields to hunt, several things should happen: your feet will get wet, your legs will get tired, your hands will get cold, your lungs will breath fresh air, your eyes will behold beauty, and you may or MAY NOT kill the game animal that you "hunted". Your "failures" are as important as your "successes". You will hopefully learn from both and become a more skillful hunter. Or you can go out and buy more gadgets to compensate for your lack of skill. A hundred years ago, Sportsmen voluntarily decided to place limitations on themselves and their weapons, in order to save the remaining game from the excesses of market hunters. Today, will Sportmen once again stand up and save the sport of hunting from the excesses of technology?

BluRidgDav
April 28, 2002, 09:47 AM
Duplicate post, DELETED.