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View Full Version : AK47...? M16....? AR15...? Urban tactical


Howling Moose
November 30, 2001, 10:45 AM
So, you've been asked before - if there's a long thread on this question, steer me there. Best urban assault protection piece ?(value counts...of course LesBaer makes great stuph...but who's got $1,900+ in the spare change account?)

I'm looking to offer 1 or 2 urban assault rifles with tactical blades (fixed and folders) and semi-autos when we open The Blayde'N Barrel after January 1st. Blade lines are set...semi-auto's are set.

For your close in (150 yards or less) skirmish, the AK47 being the weapon of choice? Taking it to 300-500 yards, an AR15?

If there's the "unknown super manufacturer" or source nobody seems to know about, list 'em here (ie. Rock River Arms)

THANKS!!!

USMCsilver
November 30, 2001, 11:56 AM
The picture speaks for itself as to what I would choose any day of the week!

http://members.aol.com/usmcsilver/images/updated%20ars%20med.jpg

M1911
November 30, 2001, 12:24 PM
What is a "tactical blade?" A bayonet?

M1911

USMCsilver
November 30, 2001, 12:32 PM
For those who might be curious:

Up top:
Pre-ban Oly Arms lower
FN Receiver
Wilson HBAR
Bushmaster retract. stock
Leepers sight rail
M3 Tactical Illuminator
Laser sight
Tasco PDP3 red dot scope
Magazine clamp
Colt bayonet

On bottom:
Bushmaster Y2K Limited lower
DPMS Complete A3 flattop upper HBAR freefloated
Bushness 6x18 50mm scope

Howling Moose
November 30, 2001, 12:49 PM
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=980780&a=13913206&f=0

Mad Dog Blades were used by the SEALs for years...still the blade of choice for CQC (close quarters combat).

When you're inside the magic 20 ft. arena...a good blade can be a lifesaver.

USMCsilver
November 30, 2001, 12:58 PM
Bad link. It takes me back to this thread...

Howling Moose
November 30, 2001, 01:57 PM
If only computers were as simple as "point...fire!" :D

Keith J
November 30, 2001, 04:11 PM
ugly mall ninja stuff...

USMCsilver
November 30, 2001, 04:53 PM
To each his own...:confused:

M1911
November 30, 2001, 08:02 PM
I'm with Keith. With all that tactical, black nylon stuff, all I need now is a my Mall Ninja boots so I can walk up walls :rolleyes:

(There are few things that get me more than the overuse of the word "tactical." Paint it black, call it tactical, and then mark up the price 25 %)

M1911

Howling Moose
November 30, 2001, 09:00 PM
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro

Well, well - you guys have it together. Dang, I thought the SEAL's and Rangers knew their business when it came to TACTICAL blades?

OK,...when your weapon jams...or you're only 6 feet from the guy who's gonna decapitate you with a clever... and trying to pull your 1911 or AR15 just don't get it - what'cha gonna do??? Pull out your johnson and impress'em to death?

Art Eatman
November 30, 2001, 09:07 PM
My problem with all this is the fundamental question of, "What's the point?" What's all this stuff needed for?

Don't misunderstand: I'm happy for folks to buy this stuff, if they want black toys. I just can't see any point to spending the money on it.

As far as any PROBABLE urban defense needs, knowing how to quickly reload a single-shot shotgun will serve as well as any of these critters. That's been proven over and over, for well beyond a century.

I have yet to read of an instance in the last half-century or so where anything more than some handgun or most any kind of shotgun didn't prove sufficient for a homeowner to deal with Urban Bad Guys.

Art

Bob Locke
November 30, 2001, 09:16 PM
If you're talking about really urban, then I'll take a good pump shotgun.

I guess from among the choices you're wanting us to make, I'd probably take the AK-47 based solely on ammo and magazine cost.

C.R.Sam
November 30, 2001, 09:25 PM
Art....:)

Howling Moose.....you might be suprised at the level of experience of some here. Some even currantly active.

Sam

krept
November 30, 2001, 09:52 PM
Hahaha... funny replies.


(waitta minute... am I confused? This is a fellow member looking to open up a new store, asking for advice as to which merchandise he is going to stock. Could be way off base and googly eyed from the reverend Beam, but I'm taking a shot...)

#1. I'm an AK guy. I bought it when I lived in an urban area (downtown Phoenix), so that would be my pick for the question at hand.

#2. That said. NICE collection USMCsilver! If I had that I too would be proud indeed. NICE.

#3. If I were a dealer, my choice would be the AR for several reasons. (and a reputable manufacturer with a good warranty). The debate will go on and on and on. If you get the AK, are you going to stock the 7.62x39 round (can't find these at many local gun stores in phoenix, believe it or not...)? Are you going to go with the Romanian NIB ones, the more expensive but used parts Bulgarian ones? The VEPRs?

If you go with the Bushmaster AR, seems like you have a pretty damn solid start. American made, with a warranty. Just don't recommend crappy mags.


#4. I don't know where things went awry but I'll take a blade over my right elbow or left jab any day of the week. Side story - I was messing around in a martial arts place out here in phoenix looking for some good focus mits... met a guy that teaches philipino martial arts there from cali. He was very skilled with a knife and even though I'm a big fella and know my way around Muay thai, some stickfighting and brazilian jiujuitsu, this smaller dude would have sliced 3 of me up had he had one of those blades. A good blade like those with some solid skills will take some animal meat out of someone. I could ramble on, but it suffices to say that layered defense is the best bet and I won't leave home without my spyderco endura.

#5. Personally, although I prefer the AK as my platform for the dusty desert, I truly believe that you can get more out of the AR platform, provided you have equal skills, use good magazines and maintain your weapon.

Friday Night Fights coming on... cheers! I'll always support the local guys first.

dsk
November 30, 2001, 10:12 PM
Hey USMCsilver,

There actually IS a rifle somewhere under all that hardware, right? Or are you just pulling our leg? :p

Jack Carson
November 30, 2001, 10:12 PM
Dang it! I have enough trouble justifying my "black guns" without you blabbing about what will suffice. You are absolutely correct and I will take issue with anyone who disagrees with your point. A simple shotgun will suffice for almost anyone or any event that takes place.

However, I really love carrying my little Bushy 14.5" while walking the dogs or checking livestock, etc. I can whack a coyote or feral dog a lot farther out with it than my old cheapo 870. A few months ago I whacked my first truly rabid animal with it.

In that instance, my shotgun would have probably been a better choice--But I was carrying the Bushmaster because I LIKE to carry it.

A single shot shotgun would have served as well IF I were carrying it. I know me well enough to know I would not have been.

Take care of yourself, jack

Howling Moose
November 30, 2001, 10:15 PM
Thanks...well said and to the original point.

We've been selling blades for years...when 9/11 broke, Special Op's calls for MD knives flooded the maker - thanks to the former Commander in Chief (gag) seems the military issue recently is real "mall-foder"...

USMCsilver
November 30, 2001, 10:31 PM
dsk -- Hey USMCsilver, There actually IS a rifle somewhere under all that hardware, right? Or are you just pulling our leg?

LOL, that's a good one! :D :D :D

Conformer
November 30, 2001, 11:46 PM
I guess most folks here like the jam-o-matic I read an artical somewhere on the web about thunder ranch and that it was a school where you tested your self and your rifles, according to it the ARs could not keep up. THey only like that rifle because it looks mean. But for urban the AK wins agianst anything hands down not the 74 but the 47. The 74 and AR15 shoot a bullet that is not good at penetrating thin plates of metal, the little 5.56 and 5.45 lose 35% of thier bullet mass and deflect going through windshields. The suck agianst brick. The main reason for knowing this is reading stories in Chechnya where Russian troops traded in thier 74 for the older 47. I heard some stories from U.S SF guys saying the penetration of the 5.56 sucked agianst brick walls ect... Don't worry though about urban tactical I doubt any of us will ever be in such a situation. Remember this is the biggest anti-AK board you mianly have bolt action and lever guys here who's idea of a SHTF weapon is an out dated 45-70 you can't hardley get ammo for. I am sure some one here will say shotgun is the best for urban. This is a false statement wieght of ammo,limited ammo,slow rate of fire, and slow reload time. You also gotta love those pimped out AR15 just like the pimped out SKS, worthless more parts makes moving quick harder. If you are going to use all that crap on an AR for the wieght you might as well be carrying an HK91 or FN-FAL or M1A. They are .308 which is not perfered because of the wieght and movement restrictions. Pimped out AR15, SKS, make great pictures and movies but thats about it. Even the AK with the scopes is not feasible. Bi-pods are useless once you learn to shoot with out one, with a 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm rifles ( though ok and feasible with .308 guns.) Anyway this is once agian fantasy talk for I hope and don't think anyone here will be in a urban situation.

Art Eatman
December 1, 2001, 11:34 AM
Conformer, you have some good points, and some errors. For instance, yes, I'm predominantly a hunter and a bolt-action guy.

My grump about the SKS/AK stuff is not the guns, themselves. Most anything that shoots can be fun, and can be useful for hunting or self-defense. HEck, I've had an M1A Match Target, an HK 91, several AR-15s--and now have a Bushmaster Match Target. Garands. GI Carbines. Lotsa suchlike stuff. I've played with Mac10s and Mac9s and most every kind of pistol known to mankind. Turned a fair amount of money into fully-automatic noise. :)

My real gripe is with those who seem to believe deep down in their heart of hearts that ONLY a black gun is NECESSARY for "urban defense" and nothing else would work. Further, there is an attitude of absolute certainty that "when the SHTF" WILL occur.

I've read the NRA's "Armed Citizen" since it first started. I've been reading newspapers since WW II. I watched the TV coverage of the Watts riots and the LA riots. I've lived through the era of "Survivalism" and done a lot of reading; like all of us, I gave thought to Y2K. And that's why I made my shotgun comment--it has been true since before I was born in 1934.

So it's less the "black guns" bit than it is the mindset of some of their advocates.

:), Art

USMCsilver
December 1, 2001, 01:22 PM
Conformer, I'll agree. You get some mud in it, and caughs as to where a AK will keep running.

Who cares.

I am not slopping through the mud with my AR-15's. I just like to shoot and I have one decked out for those SHTF reasons. And even then, mud will most likely not be too involved.

As if those of you cannot tell by my member name, I have had extensive training as an infantry Marine and I know what the AR15/M15 can handle. Been there, done that.

Those of you who don't like 'em, then don't shoot 'em. Those of you who do like them -- good, they are great rifles for practical use. I mean, who out there takes their AR-15 or AK47 out to battle every weekend? Exacly -- NOBODY!

twoblink
December 1, 2001, 01:23 PM
It's racism on the part of law makers. They want to oppress the "blacks". Hmm, wooden stock, oh, must be a "hunting gun". But you make it "black" and it's a "mall ninja" EVVVVIIILLL we must ban it, type of gun. It's pure racism on the part of our law makers. We all know it! :D

All kidding aside, I don't see the point either of all the accessories which weigh the gun down, and actually probably detracts it from it's primary goal, delivery of a bullet to the mo-fo down range.

My very very very stock M1A does it's job, does it well, and while I can make it mall ninja black, I think those who saw my gun would agree, it's beautiful and shouldn't be changed.

But of course, as a libertarian, if you want to put $3000 worth of accessories on you Ninja Gun, then not only shouldn't there be a law against it, if it makes you happy, I HIGHLY encourage you to do it. We are about, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happieness aren't we?

So do whatever you want to your gun that makes you happy.

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of scopes on a tactical rifle, I think scopes are meant for bolt actions. If you go iron sights, you only have about 300 yards range (unless you are some eagle eye) then you might have 500 yards, which I seriously doubt. So anything from AK to SKS, to mini-14, to AR15 will do just fine. Don't fall into the "7.62x39 vs .223" debate, because the range you will cover, it becomes very insignificant. And if you don't feel this is true, ask yourself this, "which would you rather be shot by, 7.62x39 or a .223"? Of course the correct answer is, neither. Both will ruin your day. I think the 308 is still a better round, and would recommend that, but I can tell you this, my SKS with 100 rounds on 10 stripper clips, I can carry without problems, i can carry all 100 rounds in 1 pocket. I don't feel I am under equipted if that is all I've got in hand when the sh*t hits the fan.

So before you dump $1600 on a gun, THINK first. If you still want to, then by all means do it. But $1600 will buy you 10 SKS's. Or 1 SKS and about 24000 rounds of ammo.

Albert

Foxy
December 1, 2001, 02:49 PM
I have yet to read of an instance in the last half-century or so where anything more than some handgun or most any kind of shotgun didn't prove sufficient for a homeowner to deal with Urban Bad Guys.


Korean shopkeepers during the LA riots? (Ok, they're not homeowners in that context, but still) :)

Jake 98c/11b
December 1, 2001, 06:20 PM
Art, Foxy made the point before I could but I know two people who will certainly disagree with you. One little Korean lady and her husband I know who owned a shop in south central LA, they kept theirs during the riots when their neighbors lost theirs because they had "assault" rifles at hand when their neighbors didn't. The second case I have direct knowledge was an Air Force couple down in Homestead Florida during hurricane Andrew. Their AR kept her safe during the rioting when he couldn't make it home for a week. I think either of those would scoff at your idea of a singleshot shotgun being equally suitable. The light carbine can do a lot the shotgun (even a repeater) can't.

As for my PROBABLE needs, I probably will never have need of the fire extingusher I keep in the kitchen but I don't figure I will get rid of that either. I will likely spend more on insurance I will never use than my thousands of dollars of guns I will never use, but I will enjoy the guns far more.

uzi4me
December 1, 2001, 07:14 PM
i like both the ar and ak.. i own an ak, and have fired my very good friends preban colt ALOT... as well as other friends' ar's..
and i will hands down, for my lifes sake, take an ak FIRST any day...
dont get me wrong, the ar is a superb firearm.. but i have seen to many jams in ar's.......and NEVER, EVER in my life saw an ak jam..
so lets review ..

the ar has the ak in the coolness factor BY FAR ... ... BUT .. you can literally run a handful of mud or sand in an ak and STILL after all that, fire the weapon with literally NO jams .. plus, they are so cheap ! .. i got the romanian a few months ago for $350 .. i got it in 7.62.. I LOVE IT ! .. DIRT cheap mags, fairly cheap 7.62, i mean .. what else can you ask for ?... not much ..
BUT .. i will STILL be purchasing a preban ar in the VERY NEAR FUTURE .. i have to .. ITS MY DESTINY ........;)

Art Eatman
December 1, 2001, 08:03 PM
Jake, Foxy: The LA riot scene where groups were involved were around stores, from what I read. Those stores I've ever been in, in high crime areas, commonly had more than one armed person around. (Other than those chains which IMO foolishly disallow armed clerks.) I never read of multi-BadGuy attacks on homes during that time.

I never read of group attacks after hurricane Andrew; I had friends there and followed the news accounts fairly closely. (I once worked where understanding hurricanes was important, so that also had me following the aftermath reports.) There were numerous reports of would-be looters passing by those houses where an owner was sitting on a front porch with pistol or shotgun. Jake, did your friend have to present her weapon to any group of potential looters?

Again, I'm not saying DON'T get an AR or AK clone or something of similar capability; I'm saying don't think that's the ONLY sort of thing that will work. And not everybody lives in areas where widespread rioting is probable, nor widespread disaster from natural phenomena--they got tornadoes in Kansas, not hurricanes.

As to probabilities, I, too, have insurance for home and car--and no fires, lawsuits nor wrecks. I also have quite a few guns which are truly anti-social to groups of Bad Guys, but they were later add-ons and I never have seen them as absolute necessities.

FWIW, Art

CrociJA
December 2, 2001, 12:25 PM
Hmmm...My "tactical rifles", number exactly two:
1. Bushmaster AR-15
2. DSArms SA-58 Medium Contour FN-FAL
I humped a 16' in the brush to know that it didn't like blanks, and I usually kept a barber brush in a decon kit box to wipe away sand and grit. I also learned not to over-oil.
Other than that when I did my part, the rifle did it's part. However I did prefer the SAW!
Especially when I could get ammo drums.:D
However as far as "penetration" goes, maybe that's why they issue SS109 to the troops?
Don't get me wrong I'm sure the AK is a great weapon (it would have to be considering its history and the number of continent/countries its used on). The AK was made specificially with the Soviet soldier and tactics in mind. Mass use of mechanized infantry, artillery and soldiers rapidly firing the AK's and than popping in a fresh magazine. The AK does not lend itself to a 300 meter shot (U.S. Army) or 500 meter shot (USMC). I'm sure there are exceptions but the M-16 (AR-15) is/was designed to fire a light round at high velocities with better accuracy than an AK. In retrospect, I'm sure the M96 would make an excellent replacement.
U.S. Military training, especially in the last few years (at least in my corner of the woods) also stressed making every shot count, in a MOUT environment this of course differs.
IMHO the only thing they have to do to the 16' series is design a HEAP round.;)
As far as urban combat goes a lot of it has to do more with sheer volume of firepower, coordinated movements, proper use of cover and concealment and lots of luck. Each room, street corner and window is an ambush waiting to happen.

Jon

Conformer
December 3, 2001, 02:00 AM
USMCsilver,
You are so right, like I said you don't have to worry about it your useing those guns for what I said they were for pictures:D. Now if you only knew some one in the movie industry lol

Jake 98c/11b
December 3, 2001, 04:50 AM
Art, the lady in Florida (hurricane Andrew) was not a group attack. It may not have been a group attack because of the guns present. The short version follows.

Husband is in the Air Force as an SP (security police), after the hurricane he is on shift 12-16 hours a day and often sleeps at the base. Being new to the area they were still on the list for base housing so they lived in a trailer court that was inhabited primarily by retired folks. Two older guys, retired servicemen, lived in the same trailer court and during the looting they both decided to provide security at the trailer court. They took two lawn chairs and sat out by the long entrance drive to their community (apparently it had only the one entrance). The wife would go out to visit and bring sandwiches and, following the husbands advice, carried his AR when she went. On day three a kid (14 yrs or so) carrying a box of wooden matches walks up to the entrance and turns down the drive. On seeing two older gentlemen, one with a .30 paratrooper carbine the other with a military marked Winchester mod 12 trench gun with bayonet, and a younger lady with an AR he stopped, turned and went back to the main road. Waving his hands briefly, a car cramed full of people puls up and a brief conversation takes place, the kid points back toward the armed three. The kid is pulled half into the open window and, with his legs still out the window, the car speeds down the road. Can you tell me the sight of three well armed people didn't convince them to go elsewhere? If the three were armed only with singleshot shotguns do you think they would have been willing to stand guard over their community? I don't doubt they would have been able to guard their home but they would not likely been motivated to guard the community as a whole. While I don't think two or three people with a single shot shotgun are of no deterrent value, it is nothing to the same number of people armed with high capacity military arms. The story was related to me by the husband so I can't claim it to be absolute fact, but I did see a picture of the three on the porch of a trailer, as I understand it the picture was taken a week or so after things calmed down. The three were armed with the guns mentioned, the short stocky guy on one end was wearing a korean war vertans cap. Makes sense to me.

There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once. A home owner in Nevada used his AC556 to deal with a home invasion break in. Read Ayoobs articles and you will find a few more. I will certainly agree that these things are rare, possibly statistically irrelevent to all except those involved. If/when the search feature is on line again you will see that I have said more than once that I take a military view of things, I admit that. I will also agree that more mundane firearms will often do but if a military style firearm provides greater comfort to the owner that should not be discounted. I also believe the argument of the perception of the black gun in court hurting you is primarily crap. If the gun is similar to what the police use you can always say that you chose a gun you saw being the weapon of choice of your local police. For me, being in the service, I shoot my AR to maintain skill at arms so I keep mine handy at home. Good enough for the cops it must be the tool to use right. Besides if we (shooters) are heard to say that these are not needed for home defense then how can we justify keeping our rights?

Art Eatman
December 3, 2001, 03:26 PM
Jake, I dunno about thugs, but if I see three people "merely" armed with single-shot shotguns, I'm leaving...

Again, my main gripe is against the mindset that one MUST have semi-auto, etc. I don't question the efficacy.

Which raises a question: Which is truly safer, a complacent guy with his legal M16 who's sitting around waiting for something to happen, or a nervous guy with his handgun and some uncertainty if it's "enough gun"? (Assume equal skill.)

I read back in the 1980s, sometime or another, where a bunch of what might be called the "Seyfried Gang" did a funhouse run with pistols, against the clock for score. They repeated the run, only with Uzi-like full-auto guns. They scored higher with the pistols.

Which gets me back to what I so often post: Scenario, planning, alertness and skill-development with whatever weapon you own...

:), Art

CrociJA
December 3, 2001, 04:24 PM
"There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once."

I believe you are talking about Harry Beckwith's Guns on 441 outside of Micanopy, FL.

Not to throw any fuel on the flame, but I think that "event" with the kid has more to do with the fact that the citizens in question were armed. I should also stress that 99% of people cannot tell the difference if a "black rifle" is semi or not especially if they aren't close enough to see the selector lever.
So just because it's "full-auto" doesn't me a lot to me. In Andrew and Opal, ALL FLARNG who were issued M-16A1's had an aluminum restrictor plate mounted on the side, that prevented us from switching it to anything but "SAFE" and "SEMI".
It would be considered a court-martial offense to take it off.
Think the fact that an individual has a firearm and knows how to use it and has ammo (unlike the Federal troops) is really all you need to deter "badguys".

Jon

CrociJA
December 3, 2001, 04:34 PM
"There have been articles of a gunshop owner in Florida (I believe) who has used his privately owned M16 (not AR15) and S&W76 sub gun to defend his shop more than once."

I believe you are talking about Harry Beckwith's Guns on 441 outside of Micanopy, FL.

Not to throw any fuel on the flame, but I think that "event" with the kid has more to do with the fact that the citizens in question were armed. I should also stress that 99% of people cannot tell the difference if a "black rifle" is semi or not especially if they aren't close enough to see the selector lever.
So just because it's "full-auto" doesn't me a lot to me. In Andrew and Opal, ALL FLARNG who were issued M-16A1's had an aluminum restrictor plate mounted on the side, that prevented us from switching it to anything but "SAFE" and "SEMI".
It would be considered a court-martial offense to take it off.
Think the fact that an individual has a firearm and knows how to use it and has ammo (unlike the Federal troops) is really all you need to deter "badguys".

Jon

Jake 98c/11b
December 3, 2001, 07:26 PM
CrociJA, I think you missed my point. I don't believe those people would have ventured out of their houses to defend their neighborhood if they only had singleshot guns. I do agree with Art in that a single shot shotgun will do the job if YOU are up to the task but would you be as comfortable in doing so? The question remains, would a gang of 6 armed predatory criminals fear the three people mentioned as much if they were armed with break action rifles and shotguns? Would you be more willing to defend your neighbors with a Contender pistol or an M1 carbine? I would not feal underarmed with a leveraction .357 (for home defense) but would be happier with an autoloader with its higher capacity and faster reload. Not likely to need either feature but who wants to be the statistical anomoly.

I am with you Art, I don't want to face a decent shooter with a quality pellet gun but if you were to pull three average people at random, arm them each with a single shot and turn me loose with my carry gun it would be an even bet. I am only an above average shooter but most people suck. Study the psychology behind gangs and you will have reason to expect the irrational.

If the auto gives the shooter a greater level of comfort I believe that is half the battle. Since 95%+ of all defensive uses of a firearm don't involve a shot being fired, it is the appearance of the armed defender WHO APPEARS WILLING AND CAPABLE of using the firearm that wins the day. If an auto provides greater comfort to the defender and a more intimidating appearance to the attacker, wouldnt you agree that is good?

M1911
December 4, 2001, 10:39 AM
Jake:

I don't think the average criminal would know that someone was carrying only a single shot shotgun. All they'd likely see is a big f*ckin gun. They're not firearms aficianados, like we are. Personally, I'd much prefer having a pump or semi shotgun over any breakopen gun in such situations. But a single shot shotgun would sure beat strong words.

M1911

Art Eatman
December 4, 2001, 03:30 PM
Psychology plays a very large part in all this stuff. Looter-types aren't looking for a gunfight; they're looking for easy pickings. Hard to sit and watch TV with a bunch of birdshot in your butt.

The looter-type ain't gonna show up and compete in your next IDPA match, either. That's part of why I tend not to worry much about the particular type of weapon I have, so long as I have some amount of skill with it...

Art

Grinch
December 10, 2001, 03:07 PM
Art has a good point-

If we really want to address the primary threat to our lives, we would spend far more time working out and much less time eating junk food than sitting around on our rapidly growing arses debating which accessories are required on a defensive rifle.

Frankly, the chances of my life ending by a heart attack are far greater than my dying at the hands of a criminal or rioting mob.

And yes, I have and excercise a CHL, run 6-8 miles per week and am a strong proponent of the right to self defense. Just considering the odds, all things considered.

BTW, there isn't much blade protruding beyond the muzzle on that AR, not that an AR is much of a bayonet platform to begin with... ;)

Grinch

brionic
December 10, 2001, 06:13 PM
Hi Art,

Agree with your points. Who cares what color the weapon system is...

I'm here in El Lay, and was armed to the teeth during the civil unrest in '92. Didn't have the need to use any force, thank God. But MANY people here were armed, at work, etc., and were comfortable knowing that NOBODY was busting into our place and walking out. Of course, none of us had a long gun slung over our shoulders, but this was early, before we realized that some REALLY BAD STUFF was happening all around us.

On the other hand, I remember several instances of home invasion during those riots in which citizens were bound and beaten or raped while their possessions were looted. Matter of fact, one such cased occured less than a mile from my (then) location in the Santa Monica/Venice area, which really struck home! In another case, one poor guy was shot through the head while waiting at a freeway offramp, pro'lly humming along to some pop ditty... Let me point out that I had used the same offramp only hours earlier, before the stuff started getting thick.

My point is that this stuff DID happen and, by extension, WILL happen again at some point, somewhere. What got most of us through was luck, attitude, planning, and avoidance. The rifle/shotgun/handgun was nice, too, "just in case".

Regards,
--
Brian

Ernest T. Bass
December 10, 2001, 07:37 PM
Why waste your money on a new weapon? Kill the enemy with your 30-30 and take his combat weapon. Much cheaper.

Ernest T. Bass
Mayor Mayberry

Art Eatman
December 10, 2001, 09:23 PM
Brionic, we had a thread here a year or two ago about home-invasion robberies; they weren't riot-connected.

For a while in Houston, it was common for Bad Guys to follow well-dressed women home from one of the fancier malls and rob them as they drove up to their house.

In either scenario, the only solution is alertness and the possession of a very handy weapon. The odds are high--IMO--that anything but a handgun is essentially worthless: There's just no time!

Condition Yellow is important as a normal routine, but there are those moments--which one can commonly foresee--when Condition Very Yellow makes a difference.

:), Art

bad_dad_brad
December 10, 2001, 10:17 PM
Well, I never thought of putting a blade on my urban defense rifle. The Mini-14 will fill the bill and quite economically. Keep your blade by your side.

Bruegger
December 12, 2001, 06:38 PM
Howling Moose-
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OK,...when your weapon jams...or you're only 6 feet from the guy who's gonna decapitate you with a clever... and trying to pull your 1911 or AR15 just don't get it - what'cha gonna do??? Pull out your johnson and impress'em to death?
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I’m not convinced that, if you don’t have time to draw your sidearm, you'd have time to draw a knife. If my rifle “jams” and I'm 6 feet away from the enemy, I'm going to charge him and give him one heck of a poke to center mass with the muzzle of my rifle (or point of bayonet, if present) and proceed from there (maybe a vertical butt-stroke or a solid kick to the family jewels with my size-12 boondockers to buy me the second it takes to tap-rack-bang). Believe you me, a solid poke to the sternum with the muzzle end of a rifle is going to cause some discomfort to the recipient even without the bayonet, and you don’t need to deal with prying the weapon free from the badguy’s ribcage. I’m not about to drop my rifle, draw my knife and jump on the badguy; I don’t want to get into a knife fight with anyone.

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Well, well - you guys have it together. Dang, I thought the SEAL's and Rangers knew their business when it came to TACTICAL blades?
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Well, maybe, maybe not. SEALs aren’t the Rambo/Terminator-types that the movies make them out to be; their primary job is a form of reconnaissance, not getting into extended hand-to-hand combat (though they do have a Direct Action role and receive plenty of training in CQB). Some of the primary requirements for a SEAL blade would be totally superfluous for an urban combat blade (ex: made of nonconductive material, extreme corrosion resistance). As for Rangers, my Uncle was a Ranger in WWII and knew from personal experience how to stick a knife into people, but I think he got by just fine with a K-Bar-type knife, and didn’t need any fancy hi-tech knives.

Even assuming that SEALs and Rangers know everything there is to know about knife combat, I’m not convinced that their choice in blades says anything about the best knife for urban combat. In today’s infantry, a knife is primarily useful for opening MRE pouches and snapping the metal bands that hold ammo boxes shut, and may be needed to cut comm wire, dig a hole, serve as a prybar and pound in tent stakes, too. A K-Bar does just dandy for all of that, whereas a lot of the fancy-pants “tactical” knives aren’t as useful for these tasks.


Conformer –
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Anyway this is once agian fantasy talk for I hope and don't think anyone here will be in a urban situation.
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Well, there are numerous active duty and reserve Marines and soldiers who frequent this site, and urban combat is exactly the type of combat we anticipate being involved in our next significant conflict…

Semper fi,
Bruegger out.

zouave
December 13, 2001, 08:13 PM
Great point Jake!

MeekAndMild
December 14, 2001, 12:08 AM
Toys. :rolleyes:

Jake 98c/11b
December 14, 2001, 06:35 AM
MeekAndMild, love the signature line.

Guys, I manage an indoor range and I can tell you that the average dirtbag (yes, we do see them from time to time) can definately tell the difference between a single shot and a repeater. This is a subclass of society that views weapons as a totem or power (oversimplification, yes, but true enough for this conversation) and while some mistake technicalities (Tec 9 for Uzi), they have a greater sophistication than you may imagine.

M1911, while I agree the singleshot 12 ga is formidable I too would rather have a repeater (preferably a carbine). If I were limited to the singleshot I would probably hold up in the house, with a repeater, even a sporting gun, I would be far more willing to participate in community defense. I can guarantee a gang will be far less likely to attack people armed with military style firearms because to them, unlike us, the weapon is first and the individual is second. If you don't believe this I would suggest studying the gang mentality, I did and I was suprised by what I learned. It is a different way of thinking that was entirely foreign to me. Reminded me of a seminar I attended on the dangers of cultural bias in Intelligence (98c in my name is one of my military jobs = Intelligence). We need to learn to think like the enemy, not how I would think if I were the enemy. Don't make assumptions based on your limited observations, research research research. Most of us here complain about how shooters, shooting sports and guns are represented by the media and entertainment industry. Most people receive their education on gangs from the same source.

The whole idea is to avoid a fight. If I can do that by scaring off the predator I will, if not I want the best tool available. There is no such thing as overkill if I am defending my family (i.e. better far too much than one too few).

Grinch made the best point of all however. I run (hate it but I do) and workout and I think the benefits are well worth the price. I think about Jack LaLane, the old fitness guru who while in his 80s was in far better shape than most people in their 20s. We would all be lucky to do as well in our 60s as he was at the time of his death at 84.