View Full Version : Things I'd like to see....
September 26, 2001, 07:07 AM
Besides Ben Laden's head on a pike, that is....
The shotgun makers, marketers and engineers have been overlooking a few things shotguns and shotgunners could use. Here's some of my ideas, and let's hear from y'all out there.
LONGER Forcing Cones:
The utility of this has been well established, the cost at the factory is minimal, and there's zero downside. So why don't all new shotguns have them?
In these ligitious times, triggers have gotten heavier and heavier, for not only legal probs but from lousy workmanship. A shotgun does best with a trigger no heavier than 5 lbs at most, 2 1/2 at least.The few triggers I've tested come from the factory around 4-8 lbs.
And while we're dropping the poundage, let's have that trigger made a bit wider. Another 1/8" would increase the surface area maybe 25% and cause the trigger to be better controlled.
SIDENOTE: The first lawsuit against the gun industries' lawyers over a heavy and hard to manage trigger causing a life threatening situation in a crisis will be very interesting.
Howzabout popular shotgun models being shipped w/o a dedicated stock, but the shop having varied stocks in diverse lengths so that a better(Tho not perfect) fit results. "One Size Fits All" is one whopper of a lie...
Decades ago, the Winchester Model 59 used a light metal liner and fiberglass wrapping to produce a realy light but strong bbl. Carbon fiber bbls have been made for the ubiquitous 10-22 Ruger and for centerfire rifles. Why not for shotguns?
And in conjunction with that....
How about a vent rib on that bbl, secured at just two points(Muzzle and breech),and made of light, Space Age material. Make it easily replaced,so that by using one with more/less drop at muzzle, one could easily tune POI.
And for "Serious" Shotgunning....
COMBINATION Tactical Light and Mag:
Many of use have added both Mag extensions and some sort of light to our "Serious" shotguns. The result is a muzzle heavy, bulky front end prone to snagging stuff at the wrong time. It should be fairly easy to design and make a light that is either part of an extension or that attaches to the front of one. A pressure switch on the forearm or PG should be all else that's needed.
MOssberg recently came out with a Police style shotgun in their 500 series that has a long, creepy trigger they're touting as a safety feature. The logic of making a gun safer by giving it a trigger that's harder to control escapes me.
The merits of a grip safety on Serious firearms have been well documented. In addition to a standard safety, this would help ensure the weapon only gets fired when the operator means to fire it.Having been in the vicinity of several NDs, none mechanically caused, I think this idea needs an examination.
BUILTIN RECEIVER MOUNTS:
On repeaters, it would be rather easy to set up the milling machines so that the top of the receiver was machined for Weaver mounts, etc. We could then mount scopes, peep sights, red dots and so on w/o major surgery or heavy smith bills.
Thanks, and let's hear about your ideas.....
Coop de Ville
September 26, 2001, 08:53 AM
I agree with all the above. It's interesting, the trigger on my 870 is very narrow. I never thought about it. I believe a wider flat trigger would not only aid in control, but also make the pull "feel" lighter.
I caught a glimpse of a post somewhere on another thread I beieve about puting handgun sights on an SG. This sounds really interesting, is there any info on this?
Thanks for the thoughts, -Coop
September 26, 2001, 10:08 AM
Good points Dave.
Picky but.....might want a few more attaching points on the rib. Just two might allow for noticible distortion when the barrel and rib expand unequally as things warm up.
I love the stock idea. For generations barreled actions (often with choice of triggers) have been available for rifles.....but I have never seen that with shotguns. Might be a nightmare for distributor and retailer but certainly good for us....and worth a few extra bucks to get one right.
September 26, 2001, 11:43 AM
Only one addition. Instead of various stocks available for various body sizes (a logisitcal hassle, as pointed out already), why not an ADJUSTABLE STOCK? Does not have to be as expensive as the high-end competition rifle stocks. Needs adjustment for length, drop, and cheek piece height. I'd certainly be eager to buy one.
Anybody in the aftermarket make one for 870 or Moss 835?
September 26, 2001, 12:16 PM
I shot a friend's 12 ga, 18" barrel with RIFLE sights. I had never seen this. Everything was so EASY. Shooting skeet with his was much easier than with my similar gun with a singular bead front sight.
September 26, 2001, 02:25 PM
Sounds good to me. I especially like the idea of a grip safety. I noticed that on a pistol, it not only makes it safer in the obvious sense, but it forces it's user into using a proper hold.
September 26, 2001, 02:30 PM
Coop,haven't heard much about HG sights on a shotgun. Most people that need sights go with a rifle type setup. Since you've got the sight radius, might as well use it.
You've a good point, Sam. With less metal to metal contact,there may be more distortion. How about a few tasteful cooling fins at the muzzle(G)?
Dave R, there's a buncha stocks made to be adjusted completely, like the Precision Fit number at about $1200. Of course, this comes with a built in recoil reducer of the shock absorber type. More traditional trap style stocks are widely available from Wenig's etc. And remember, the standard stock is the standard stock because there's lots of standard sized shooters.
One of the Geezers at AGC has one of these on a 682 E Beretta. I note that I bust more birds than he does.
Quake, sounds like you're aiming rather than pointing. If it works for you, fine. When you get a chance, tho, check the fit of his shotgun versus yours. If it is,try to match the fit of his and see how you do.Even good sights like a peep are slower than a bead, and shotgunning runs on tight time frames.
Stock fitting on repeaters is not rocket science, nor do you have to have 'prentised at Purdey's.
Pattern with your load of choice and adjust by shimming in between the stock and receiver with toothpicks.If you need to bring the POI up, shim at the bottom. Same for windage.
September 26, 2001, 10:38 PM
I'd like to see used guns sell at the prices listed in the new Gun Trader's Guide I saw at Sam's today.
$495 for a used Benelli Montefeltro in "Excellent" condition. I wish. -- Kernel
September 27, 2001, 07:45 AM
Longer Forcing cones, Better Triggers, interchangeable stocks, "comfortable"triggers? Well there is one gun that has all of these, but it costs more than most people want to spend :D ( Actually there are three guns in this category, all however are $$$$$$)
Doesn't Benelli or Franchi have a model with interchangeable ribs? I seem to remember seeing one somewhere, will have to dig out my old catalogs. Ruger only attaches the ribs at the front and back, and most rattle like a New Years eve noisemaker, no thanks.
Fiberglass barrels (OK carbon fiber), you are welcome to try. But there are plenty of lightweight barrels out there that work just fine, even for the 870. How much lighter do you want to go? And why? Give me good well struck metal anyday.
I would think and integral light in the mag tube would be a real PITA, with trying to keep fresh batteries and all that entails, As well as reducing mag capacity.
As to sidesaddles, an old shell belt works better, has been used for years. Why hang more junk on the gun that will just get in the way, especially after you have tried everything to lighten the gun already.
I just think simple is better in the long run.
If you want good triggers, no, great triggers, buy a german gun. Too bad they don't make autos.
Then again, there is the Cosmi auto, great triggers and great handling. Only about $8,000 a pop.
Just feeling cranky this morning :D
September 27, 2001, 12:27 PM
I still want a bullpup HD shotgun based on the Browning BPS with good ergonomics and a well thought out design for under $500. Oh come on now, you know if they built one you would want one! :D
September 27, 2001, 02:26 PM
Good Ergonomics, well thought out design. Hmmmm We already have the 870, OK so it is not a bullpup but it works just fine.
Didn't someone make a bullpup on the mossberg pump receiver. I remember shooting one once and I thought it was a stupid design. Didn't like the idea of the chamer being next to my face.
But than I think that Steyr Augs are stupid also, must be some kind of trauma I suffered in my youth.
September 27, 2001, 03:19 PM
Ahh, but Geoff when I reffered to good ergonomics I was specifically thinking about the Mossberg Bullpup. Which it most definatly did not have in any way, shape, or form.
And don't get me wrong, when it comes to shotguns, I am first and foremost an 870 fan.
But I have always wanted a bullpup of some kind, (maybe I was dropped on my head too :) ) And I think that a HD shotgun would be the perfect platform for something like that.
September 27, 2001, 05:09 PM
I want to see an adjustable stock for under $300. Should be do-able? Just the 3 adjustments for length, drop and cheek?
Having learned how important stock fit is, I'm growing dissatisfied with stocks that don't fit.
It seems relatively easy to fix length, but fixing drop and cheek height sounds pretty difficult.
September 27, 2001, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by K80Geoff:
As to sidesaddles, an old shell belt works better, has been used for years. Why hang more junk on the gun that will just get in the way, especially after you have tried everything to lighten the gun already
I think that the sidesaddle is exclusively for HD and Ninja purposes. With that in mind, in a HD situation it simplifies things. All you need to grab is the gun - you don't have to try to get the belt on while juggling your flashlight and shotgun. You don't have to worry about putting the shells on the wrong side of your body.
If I were to use a shotgun for defense purposes, that's why it would have a sidesaddle. Just my take on things.
September 28, 2001, 06:33 AM
S'OK, Geoff, I get cranky sometimes also, as you may have noticed(G)...
The point is, one shouldn't have to swap the equivalent of 3-6 mortgage payments to get a long cone, decent triggers, et al. I mean, how much would it cost Remington to widen an 870 trigger by 1/4"? Or, to hang trigger groups in a jig, weigh the pulls and send back to a fitter any with a pull weight more than say, 5 lbs?
I wouldn't cite Ruger as the industry leader in shotguns. And, I understand that there's an aftermarket source for interchangeable, Delrin ribs. But, this too would be a low cost way to get a standard shotgun shooting better for more folks.
As for the Sidesaddle, when I pick up the HD 870 here, I've 10 rounds handy, including slugs, 00, and birdshot. And, that extra weight lies right as the fulcrum, so handling's not affected much.
And that combo mag extension with light. Is a 7+1 capacity shotgun w/o a "Tactical" superior to a 6+1 capacity shotgun with? And Lithium batteries will handle the shelf life prob nicely, IMO.
And, in my checkered career I've fired both the AUG and that Mossy bullpup. I liked the AUG, but found the Mossy to be hard kicking, clunky, hard to reload fast and with an abombinable trigger. The length was a nice touch, but the tradeoffs reeked.The Bullpup has possibilities, but a purpose built action, not an awkward makeover, seems to be needed.
I see the carbon fiber wrapped bbls to be not a way to reduce weight so much as a way to move mass towards the fulcrum and sweetening the "Feel".
Take an iron bar about 6 feet long and of constant diameter. Swing it around a bit, it feels like, well, an iron bar.
Now take another bar, one just as long and heavy, but tapered from the ends to the middle so that much more of the mass lies within,say, the center 2 feet. Swing this, and note the differences.
A friend's Parker SBT is breeched like a Howitzer and weighs nearly 9 lbs with its 34" bbl, but it swings like a quail gun.It's not the weight, but how it lies along the center of gravity and center of mass.
And, I think you know this, every Kreighoff I've handled felt alive. Bet your bbls are light...
September 29, 2001, 10:47 PM
Great points Dave!
I think the bottom line is, regardless of the minimal cost to the mainline manufacturers, the demand doesn't warrant the R&D and retooling. Many of us(especially on this board) appreciate fine triggers, and the other refinements you have mentioned. However, there are millions of buyers that are strictly hunters(and I do not intend that to be a slight on hunters), that utilize the shotgun as a tool, and are not enlightened on what a shotgun/rilfe/pistol can become with the right work(work that we shouldn't have to do, but thanks to the sue happy and the ever profit concious manufacturers, we do have to work toward). Once again, I stress that this is not a knock on the hunters reading this post. I am just saying that alot of hunters(in my personal experience) are not gun enthusiasts in the strictest sense. Other than my fellow enthusiasts, the shotgun hunters I know(and especially the rifle hunters), pull their gun out 2-4 weeks before the hunt and "tune up" for the upcoming hunt. When I have taken some of these individuals to the trap range to try out a trap gun with a 2lb trigger, they are amazed at how much better their scores are.
October 1, 2001, 06:17 AM
Amen,Zane, many hunters are in the position of never having fired a shotgun with a good trigger. I'm a hunter myself, and marvel at the folks who hunt w/o practice, patterning or much game in the bag.
Slapping a trigger is like a fast squeeze, lots of folks YANK on those egregious and heavy triggers, and never shoot to their potential.
And,until Remington, et al, get the message about QC being the best advertising possible, we'll have 8 lb triggers, short, pattern-wrecking cones,and ill fitting stocks.
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