*How do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife?*

[parabellum9x19]

Based on what happened today, how do you defend yourself against a terrorist on a plane with a knife when you can't bring a weapon on a plane yourself?

[PUMC_TomG]

This is easy...depending on how many subjects there are. I'd call a Marine Corps shout, and motivate everyone to go after them. Even 5 or 6 knifemen versus 80 or so motivated attackers are sure to buy the farm. Tactically, I would use my belt most likely...or possibly a coup baton. I would depending on their style attempt to initially break the weapon arm, followed by a disarm and a quick attack to the vitals.
Another idea would be to use your seat cushion. Anyone stabbing or slicing will meet firm resistance with the cushion which will give me the one second or so to take them out.

[PreserveFreedom]

Agreed...convincing the others to "rush them" is a sure fire method. The only reason that I can think of why they didn't do this on three of the four planes is probably because they didn't know that the terrorists were set on crashing the planes. Hollywood had taught us that the FBI can negotiate anything. :(

[Jorah Lavin]

of an American plane will be mobbed and torn limb from limb.

I also suspect that the next attack will come in a different way, just as gruesome and horrifying, and just as hard to predict.

Gods help us in the next days and months.


-J.

[ATeaM]

Yep, the people didn't realize the terrorists were going to crash the plane. Too many news reports of Rambo wannabes interfering in bank robberies and what not, losing their life and causing the deaths of others keeps most from interfering.

However, the crew is a whole other story.

Why are pilots not armed ? I bet they will be now. That and a more secure cockpit.

Oh, and an automatic pilot that prevents non authorized pilots from flying the plane. Technology should be in place so that Air traffic control can guide the plane from the ground.

But, to answer your original question; What can you do if a terrorist has a knife pointed at you ? Kick him in the nuts and choke him to death with his towel.

[UK2TX]

80 people rushing 5 or 6 knifemen?, the only problem is that the narrow gaps between / over the seats would allow a couple of people at most to come at the person at any one time. I've been envolved in fist fights in similarly constrained environments and can assure you that two people side by side can defend their selves very ably!

As for the pilots, most do not even lock the aluminum door to the cabin, I would have thought that after the several "air rage" attacks recently the FAA would have mandated the locking of such doors.

Regards,

UK2TX

[PaladinX13]

This latest case is the exception... hopefully not what will become a rule. As rules go, most hijackings end "peacefully"... and in fact the bravery of those who acted on the Boston flight would be a terrible and foolish tragedy if we didn't have the bigger picture. We must realize that those on the Boston flight DIDN'T survive either... which means the terrorists still "win". I believe that by and large, our best bet would be to "fight" by providing intel... if you believe in sacrifice.

I agree with Jorah, they will modify their tactics... so this "What If" situation is loaded against us. But if you want to play the statistics, just wait.

[gereg]

Best bet is the seat cushion. 3-4 inches of dense foam and attached to the seat with velcro so its quick and easy to get loose. BG with a box knife couldn't do much unless his arms are long enough to reach past the cushion.

As for the cockpit doors, they have knobs like hotel room doors--if the door is closed it is locked. However, an agressive 12 year old could knock it down with 2 or 3 kicks. Best bet for better security there would be .100" thick stainless steel sheet in the door and vault-door type locking bolts. Might add 100 lbs but would pay for itself the first time a terrorist or air-rager couldn't get into the cockpit. Add 2 armed cockpit crewmen and we're flying safe and secure again.

[AdrenalineJunky]

All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do.:(

[AdrenalineJunky]

All they had to do was kill the pilots. After that, barring the possibility of having a pilot on board as a passenger, I don't think there'd be much the passengers could do.:(

[Cheapo]

Aww, given enough fuel (= TIME), I think we could get any state's highway patrol to clear a few miles of freeway.

Then any pair of reasonably competent passengers could be talked through the landing gear sequence and so forth, and then just idle the thing down to land.

It's just gotta be a few miles without any overpasses! Even in PA, that might mean a 2-lane remains the best bet...

Being the type of carried a bladder canteen in my carry-on baggage to Hawaii, I've also been known to carry one of those almost under-engineered plastic knives. Entering and staying a known disarmed victim zone always makes me nervous.

[PaladinX13]

Assuming you're not attacking a suicidal pilot who sends you into a dive the instant you initiate an attack... can you defeat him, get him out of the way, learn to operate a radio, and get out of a dive... in time? Perhaps.

[Coltdriver]

I always have a small but razor sharp pocketknife in my pocket.

So, you say your prayers, decide you have everything to gain and nothing more to lose and you go Yankee crazy or Rebel crazy on em and slash away at the hijacker while you are screaming for others to help you.

You'd probably inspire some help.

As for landing that big bird if the pilot was disabled, that is another story. There are over 10,000 runways in the US so getting to one should not be that tough. Flying a plane is not that hard. Landing a big jet is a very high skill task. I believe most private pilots could be talked through it, but a non pilot, I doubt it.

[Erich]

I suspect no one's going to be having small pocketknives, razor sharp or not, in their pockets on airplanes anymore.

Under-engineered plastic knives, either.

[David Howard]

I believe the decrease in crime on the streets is due partly to CCW. Don't see much difference on the street & on a plane. I bet most everyone on board wished someone was armed. Some calibers might overpenetrate & lead to decompression or loss of hydraulics but in the end the result will be the same for those on board & maybe better for those on the ground. They should at least go back to having sky marshalls or arm crew members.

[eyeball]

only about half of the plane's popluation could fight off 5 or 6 knifed terrorists cause you have to think about the elderly and children.

anyways, I was thinking about rushing a kinfeman with luggage and then after that he and I would be in a wrestling match.

but then again, one of his gay friends might come up from behind and stab me while were are struggling for possession of the kinfe.

[Dave3006]

This is a good discussion. Because most martial artists I have talked to say they would just run if someone had a knife. This is one of many scenarios where running won't work. I think if we are honest, we can admit that no martial art can really level the playing field when you are up against a blade. You have a slim chance of winning. Of course, especially in this case, you have to try. There are some good ideas posted on improvised weapons and shields. It isn't much. But, it is all you have.

Dave

[Fatcat]

"The most dangerous man is the one who's got nothing to lose."

I usually don't pack a chute with me when I fly, so I can't bail out the door. And I certainly will not just curl up and whimper. What's left to do? Take a deep breath, and go berzerk. Good to see many others on this board have the same idea.

I ain't a martial artist, but they had better be good with a blade, cause I'm gonna keep fighting till the last drop of blood falls out of my body. If at least 1/4 of the others on the plane did the same, it would be easy.

As for landing it, the undersides of those things are built for skidding along the ground, aren't they? At least for a bit? Seems like you'd have a much larger chance of survival that way. Don't know if I could bring it down smoothly, but I think I could get it down soft enough to skid instead of smash. Maybe.

[parabellum9x19]

seat cushion idea is good. I would use my keys between my fingers to punch. Leather belt sounds good too.

I think we need armed sky sheriffs.

[eyeball]

HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?

[ATeaM]

"HELL NO we don't need armed sheriffs aboard airplanes. if that in fact happens, then who will protect us from the armed sheriffs?"

Who will protect me from your absurd posts ?

A comedian once joked about hearing something so stupid, it almost gave him an aneurism trying to make sense of it. Everytime I read one of your posts, I am reminded of that joke. For your sake I hope you were joking and that you're just a troll.

[Gunter]

Issue to every adult passenger, when boarding the aircraft, a suitable pistol (Glock would be fine :-)), loaded with suitable ammunition. If anyone suggests a change of route, take a popular "vote". Appropriate safety instruction by flight attendants (just like the "O2 mask, exit and lifejacket" routine): "In case of emergency, align the sights on your pistol with the center of the chest - or whatever part of him is visible - of the nearest person suggesting a change of flight route. Slowly and gently press the trigger to the rear. Repeat as necessary."

[parabellum9x19]

A gun fired in a plane will depressurize the cabin and might take down the plane. Maybe a tazer is better.

[witzig]

...
that the terrorists told the passengers that they had explosives strapped to themselves,if there was an attempt...
Bang.

[PaladinX13]

Also, if we "armed everyone" then terrorists would simply use "Sleepers" who didn't aggressively jump up with the other terrorists... if SHTF then that person would blow the plane. There's very little defense against the motivated irrational suicial terrorist.

Not that I don't believe philosophically, that people are better off down here on the ground being able to defend themselves, but up in the air is a tactical situation totally loaded against you with no simple solution, IMO.

[Marlin1894]

Hey guys,

Correct me if I'm wrong but last I heard, you were allowed to carry a pocketknife onboard a plane, provided it was non-serrated and sub-3 inches. You can do a lot with something like that. I like the keys idea. I'm guessing they already outlawed brass knuckles...

Marlin

[cyeager]

I remember a post made by Rich a long way back about the use of canes in self defense. It seems there are a number of companies that offer specially designed canes and training in their use. I think this may be something to think about. Especially since we arent going to be able to have knives on an airplane anytime soon. But, who is going to tell you not to carry you cane on board? In he right hands that could be a pretty good weapon particularly against an opponent with a knife.

[eyeball]

A-Team: I am serious here. what if the terrorists penetrate security and one of the terrorists is disguised as an armed sherrif?

what if the sheriff loses it one day and decides to hijack the plane?

remember, in order to have a free society one must have the ability to protect themselves. if you have an armed man aboard then there is no chance of defending against this. but if they have knifes then there is at least a chance as was the case in which one of the four terrorists plane crashed in the boondocks and didn't reach d.c. as a result of the crew fighting back against the terrorists.

[Erich]

No more knives on planes, Marlin. None. New FAA regs as of Weds.

cyeager, I've got a bum hip (car accident when I was a kid) that makes it difficult to stand for long periods of time, so my doc actually TOLD me to get a cane. I picked up one of the Canemasters Gentleman's canes - nice solid hickory stick with no yin/yangs engraved on or sharp hooks ground into it. I would certainly use it if I were on a plane and the opportunity presented itself, but you're talking some pretty close quarters (at least in the class seats where I travel!). I think that would severely hamper its use (though I'd still be delighted to have it).

I think a yawara stick might be more versatile overall. Put that in your strong hand, put a rolled-up newspaper in your off-hand for jabbing, wrap some cloth around the off-hand for slash-protection, and aim for the tea towel.

Although, as of today, your best bet is to hug your knees while the sky marshall shoots for the tea towels.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Folks-

Almost anything is capable of being used as a weapon. But remember not is the Mind the ultimate safety device, it is or should be a weapon as well.

Armed Sky Marshals are returning - finally. Be they local or federal law enforcement or the military. Something about closing the barn door...

The new reality will be improvised weapons and / or techniques that work in close quarters.

[parabellum9x19]

What can you carry on a plane that is legal that you can use to defend yourself with?

[eyeball]

a rolled up magazine

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thus far mentioned elsewhere are all manner of things one would normally carry with them in business attire. Something quality, say like Waterman rather than Bic - though the Bic would work fine.

[Dave R]

A quality pen would be a reasonable stabbing device. That's great for injuring, but not stopping. A stab to the throat may be the best you could hope for with that? Still would not incapacitate immediately. But it would go great with business attire...

[Cheapo]

I'm sure that once all the details come out from the various cell phone calls from the planes, we will learn that the decision(s) to resist the hijackers were made after the passengers realized that the plane(s) were to be used as ramming devices against Very Important Targets.

At that point, the boomyou'realldead factor becomes irrelevant. Preventing the greater harm becomes the passengers' goal, and worries about the terrorist pilot grounding the plane not longer matter as well, because that would also both thwart the terrorist's ultimate goal, but also accomplish the passengers' goal.

So, can the passengers voluntarily (or by majority vote or even by coup) sacrifice their collective lives to deny the terrorists their goals. YES!!! Greater love hath no man...

Comes a point when my life doesn't matter much, because I MUST prevent evil from conquering.

After all, how much good does the old-style hijacking do if there are no living passengers left to throw from the plane after it lands in Libya?

If we don't cooperate, the best they can hope for is a big body count. They won't get to broadcast their demands on world TV, and they won't be able to ram any innocent victims, either.

Resistance is futile?? Big fat hairy deal!! Our resistance will muck up THEIR goals too.

BTW, the issues of round penetrating the airframe and compromising control systems has already been addressed. Why do you think the Glaser SAFETY SLUG and other limited-penetration bullets were developed?

Gee whiz, tell the bullet designer what you want the slug to do (from a pure physics standpoint), and they WILL find a way. Stopping power is less scientific because of the biology factor, but we CAN make the perpetrator bleed a lot, hurt a lot, and maybe lose control of any weapons with a CNS shot.

Air marshals were abandoned partly because of the cost. Armed aircrews are a better answer.

_____
what if the sheriff loses it one day and decides to hijack the plane?
_____

Come on, eyeball, we face that threat EVERY DAY in EVERY PLACE where we have armed humans. If you really think that's a valid objection, then you're asking for an absolutely impossible level of security. Anwar Sadat and many other world leaders have been killed by their own security people over the last century, and THAT risk can only be minimized, never eliminated.

Price of freedom, a price that is still paid under tyrrany!

[Deaf Smith]

You all seem to sound like you have never been in an airliner. Have you noticed how narrow and crampt it is up front getting to the pilots cockpit? Do you really think through such a narrow place 40 or 50 people 'rushing' them will be able to do more than jam up like the 3 stougies? The will have at most 2 of you to fight at once. And the terrorist will have knives, you won't. And I am sure they will be trained to use the knives in that type of situation and be quite fit.

May I suggest.... Wear a bullet proof (and knife puncture proof) vest on the airlines. If not allowed to bring a small knive (which I doubt, knowing those stuipd administrators) then either a very hard small (I do mean small) case that is metal reinforced at the corners) or a cane (with doctors prescription) and a fake limp. The terrorist will not know you have a vest on. Use the case or cane as your weapon. Do not depend on any help from other passengers. 99 percent are sheep. Expect to be hurt bad. Might even have first aid kit (for severe cuts and blood loss) in the case you are using as a weapon.

I would also suggest some real serious training on how to use a knife, how to defeat a knife (without you gun), and how to use other convient weapons.

Deaf

[geegee]

I fly a great deal in my job, and have often played out this type of scenario. The sticking point for me is this: what would your response be if the plane got up to cruising altitude, a highjacker stands up and slashes someone's throat (thereby indicating his level of seriousness), then grabs up a baby or a child and begins issuing commands. Now what? I'm no hero, but I guess I would be willing to rush one of these guys in desperation, knowing I'm gonna be cut pretty good...but what about that child?

I suppose it may become apparent after some time that the entire plane is going down, but would you be willing to make the first move and let the scene play itself out? I have to wonder if something like this in fact didn't happen. I'm sure we'll never know.geegee

[eyeball]

"Come on, eyeball, we face that threat EVERY DAY in EVERY PLACE where we have armed humans. If you really think that's a valid objection, then you're asking for an absolutely impossible level of security. Anwar Sadat and many other world leaders have been killed by their own security people over the last century, and THAT risk can only be minimized, never eliminated."

- posted by Cheapo

----------------------------

yeah but the difference with this scenario is the potential to do mass harm. I mean, a plane could take out 50,000 people whereas one sheriff who lost it could only take out like 5-10 people.... that is 5000 LESS people the sheriff can't hurt.

armed security inside of airplanes is a big no no.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Eyeball-

Peace officers fly armed every day in this country - and were before Tuesday. Whether you like armed persons about an aircraft or not is up to you, I note that the Israelis have been rather successful with this & other measures.

[calvinf]

I just want to add to the problem of large numbers of people vs. a small number of Terrorists etc. I am not a martial artist but I did read somewhere in some information on Aikedo that in defending yourself against multiple attackers it gets easier when the number gets greater than somewhere around four. Any more than that tend to get into each others way. This statement was made about a fight in the open, so it would be worse in a confined area. Of course this is assuming the person is trained in defending against multiple attackers. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on any of this, it has been a while since I read it.
Calvin

[Glamdring]

calvif: The idea that large numbers of attackers are easier to fight is just not true. It is possible for team members to get in the way of each other but it isn't a given. If your fighting people that are not trained to fight together or simply against unskilled opponents you might be able to cause some confusion. But they still have the simple advantage of numbers. Say you face 5 goblins & you can kill 4 by jumping up and landing a "death blow" with each limb at the same moment in time, which leaves you with no way to block the 5th goblin from crushing your throat while you hang there in the air.

Put any martial artist you want on a football field against 11 defensive football players and watch what happens. Heck just use 5 football players without pads and stuff...if they are good college or average NFL player the martial artist probably won't be able to run fast or far enough to get away. Remember football players are used to running with a bunch of extra weight on them.

Or next time your in a dojo with a large number of people have a black belt volunteer to take on the class. Split into 3 or more groups and flank the target.

The reality is that two people that are weaker and of much lower skill level can easily take a single good MA if they work together at all. The team seperates enough so the single person has to comit against one or the other [or in other words your seperated enough that even a fient would have to be clearly directed at one team member not at the team as a group]. Then you can either wait for the solo person to attack. The attacked team member simply defends & the other team member gets to attack. Or both team members attack at the same time.

[calvinf]

Yeah, I got to thinking about it last night after I had posted and realized the errors in my statement. I guess thats what I get for posting something I read without thinking it through.

Getting back to the original topic, thinking about your statements about the numbers of people beating training. I am thinking that the confined isle of the airplane while limiting the number of people who can face a BG at a given moment would be an effective funnel. If everyone rushes down the isle and the first person can somewhat restrain/block the BG at all (maybe with a couple of seat cushions) and the rest push from behind the BG would either be on the floor pinned in a high school style "dog pile" or pinned against a bulkhead. Then once pinned he could be easily be taken out. I remember in high school, about 20 of us almost accidentally crushed the assistant guys dean goofing off and "dog piling" him, we didn't think about the fact that he had 1000+lbs of weight on him, he was gasping for air for several minutes afterward.

Calvin

[Deaf Smith]

It would be fine if you could all huddle together in the airplane, shout 'Dogpile!!' and all run together toward the terrorist. Unfourtunaly, you would look back and see just maybe a few following, the sheeple would all still be huddled together.

I don't know if you could get many to help. It would depend on the makeup of the passengers. If they were all from Israel. I think there would be a mass dogpile! If, they were all liberal limb-wristed Barbara Strisanders, well...... LOL.

Just make sure you are as prepaired as YOU can be. Then expect to get stabbed.

Deaf

[parabellum9x19]

Since it is most likely that the terrorists killed crew men/crew women early on to intimidate any counter attack, most people would be peeing in their pants.

Bigger passenger has disadvantage to thinner passenger since the aisles are narrow. Bigger person is bigger target for a knife.

Many travellers are tired from traveling and not at full strength.

I have been on buses where beat downs happened and the bus passengers did not intervene.

Visable armed sky marshalls would be a deterent.

[Don Gwinn]

OK, since we're all assuming that we're leading the charge and that we're in confined close quarters, what strategies do we decide NOW to employ in order to minimize those disadvantages?

1. Make as much noise as you can? You probably can't sneak up on the terrorist from the passenger section. Several have mentioned giving a rebel yell in the hope that you will break the mob bystander mentality.

2. Attack the legs/get low on the assumption that the others behind you will attack high (untrained seem to do that most often.) This might allow more people at once to fight him, and there are obvious advantages to you attacking his balance while someone else attacks elsewhere--but are you committing suicide by attempting to bypass the blade and not controlling it? You could hope the next guys will stop the blade before it gets you, but that might be a thin hope.

3. Do you make it a priority to get past him or throw him into the seats, in order to let your "teammates" get better access? If I rush him in a narrow aisle and my friends are behind me, for instance, I tend to block the whole aisle. But if I can get past him, I have him between me and them and we have that pincer advantage. But is that going to be more difficult than simply controlling the blade and fighting to win on your own? What I see in my mind here is to "blast past" like a defensive lineman--if you go on the right side, you get as low as you can, get your arm low, and bring it up from about the waist to strike him around the shoulder/armpit. You are trying to lift that shoulder and turn his shoulder so you can get past him, while turning yours as little as possible. Stopping and turning to face the blade, though, might be a problem, assuming you get past it intact.
OTOH, if there are several terrorists in a line in the aisle this would allow you to get past the first one, leaving him for the others, and penetrate to the others.

Then there's the big question of whether I would remember any of this grand strategy when the balloon goes up.

[Deaf Smith]

Well, I guess like on the show 'Loss Cannons' you can act crazy, bable and jump around and just kick the S*@t out of them!

All I can say is, if you are really thinking about unarmed combat, I suggest you slim down, take classes, and enter some full-contact matches. May take while, one year at least, to get good enough, but I know many who are quite good fighters who can bet the stuffings out of me (and I have been in the martial arts for 20 plus years). You will also get some scars and lumps! I promise you that!

Get trained, get a bullet proof vest, cane, and a determined mindset, then stay off the airlines as much as you can.

Deaf

[Glamdring]

IF you have a moment or two grab something(s) to use as a weapon.

Empty hand stuff is for when all your weapons are gone or something happens to fast/close to use a weapon.

What type of attack or tactics you use should depend on your goal/mission/objective.

Are you taking them one at a time? Do you want to crash the plane?
Do you want them alive to extract intell before you go after the rest? Do you want to survive?

If your facing an opponent armed with a small blade and you can accept the fact that you will get cut then you can pretty much ignore the blade for the short term. As long as you protect the most vital areas of your body from the knife you don't have to worry about the knife stopping you.

From what I have gleaned about hand to hand combat you need to focus on either breaking a limb or landing a successful striking attack (probably more than one) against neck or head. Destroy the eyes. Or get a strangle hold or neck crank [ie break neck] applied. If you can do that despite getting cut you will have beat that particular goblin.

Most martial arts really are not very useful in a direct sense for life and death fights because they usually don't teach or have you practice any techniques that would actually end a fight quickly like you need to do in the real world against armed opponents. And the arts that do teach some useful techniques, like judo/jujitsu and others, don't teach you to protect all the real vital areas.

A knife cut (small knife) to the arm or shoulder isn't going to win a fight in and of itself. A finger strike or gouge to the eye might, and if you get both eyes then they can't see you.

[eyeball]

whats a "GB"?

[Brian Williams]

EL AL the Isreali arilines has had armed guard or personel on their flights for years. notice nobody hijacks their planes,

[eyeball]

nah... theres bound to be one or two nutcases out there that will go postal... we can't take that chance.

[parabellum9x19]

Don't fly ever again "eyeball" because, like it or not, sky sheriffs are already on airlines now.

[Cheapo]

"Come on, eyeball, we face that threat EVERY DAY in EVERY PLACE where we have armed humans. If you really think that's a valid objection, then you're asking for an absolutely impossible level of security. Anwar Sadat and many other world leaders have been killed by their own security people over the last century, and THAT risk can only be minimized, never eliminated."

- posted by Cheapo

----------------------------
and replied by Eyeball:

yeah but the difference with this scenario is the potential to do mass harm. I mean, a plane could take out 50,000 people whereas one sheriff who lost it could only take out like 5-10 people.... that is 5000 LESS people the sheriff can't hurt.

armed security inside of airplanes is a big no no.

_____________

Well, since the only woman on death row in Nevada is one who drove her car onto a sidewalk and killed several people, I submit that the idea of using any vehicle as a ramming device is neither new nor novel, and the risk you seem so concerned about has always existed with regard to airliner pilots.

What about tanker aircraft? Now, THAT'S A FUEL BOMB!!

What about the --Texas City?-- propane explosion in the late 1940s or whenever that happened? How easily could a deranged night shift worker duplicate the Bhopal, India poison gas disaster?

Listen, I recognize certain remote risks every time I pass a gasoline tanker on the freeway.

Seems like your risk of sky pilots "losing it" or whatever has always been a risk for every military plane that ever took off with a full load of ordinance.

Your approach reminds me of abandoning antiaircraft batteries on naval ships, lest some operator "lose it", "go postal," and attack either friendly aircraft or neighboring ships. Those missiles could conceivably sink a mid-size craft holding 3,000 Marines in very short order.

I'm just not comfortable with there being only *one* armed and very visible target on the aircraft. The aircrews already hold the power of life and death in their hands every day. Giving them the means to safeguard their power is eminently reasonable.

Arm two members of the crew. Concealed. Only claim that one is armed. And no one knows who the *other* armed crew member is, not even the captain. A certain measure of security and wise redundancy of safety lies in such a stealth approach. Plus standing orders to always answer "not me" when asked if they are armed.

[Tim Burke]

-We haven't had many hijackings in the US lately because the hijackers have learned that it isn't a percentage play to hijack a plane here. This latest outbreak worked because they had different motivations than previous hijackers. For any hijackings in the foreseeable future, I would assume that the hijackers intend to turn the plane into a missile.
-As someone suggested above, once a hijacker gets into the pilot's seat, getting him out without crashing the plane is going to be difficult, if not impossible. I suspect that Flight 93 was being piloted by a hijacker, and was deliberately crashed when he realized they were on the verge of losing control of the plane to the rebelling passengers. Since the best you can do once the hijacker gets into the pilot's seat is crash the plane, it is imperative that you prevent them from getting into the cockpit. Thus, you must be prepared to act immediately, without consultation.
-If the terrorists have a bomb, then they have a way to bypass security. If they are armed with makeshift knives, then they do not have a way to bypass security. If they have makeshift knives, but claim to have a bomb, then they are almost certainly lying. And if they aren't, then the best you can do is have them detonate the bomb while the pilot is at the controls.

In short, I think the most important thing you can do in this scenario is attack before they get into the cockpit. I think how this is done is much less important... Just do it.

[GSB]

I've seen martial artists break cinder blocks with rolled up magazines. Lots of things can be improvised weapons.

[eyeball]

yeah but out in the public if somebody is armed, there could be another person out there thats armed that would level of the first armed person.

the difference with an armed guard in an airplane and an armed policeman on the streets is that the armed guard in the airplane is the only armed person in the world around him... and that is extremely dangerous.

[parabellum9x19]

eyeball, ask yourself this question: What would you do if you were on that doomed plane that is headed for a suicide mission? You bet your ass you would wish their was an armed sheriff on board if you were aboard a run away plane.

[TEXAS LAWMAN]

1. Several authorities have indicated that a bullet hole in the skin of a jet will not cause depressurization to the extent that someone would be "sucked" out of the jet. A much larger opening is required. Apparently, we've all been watching too much TV.

2. CHEAPO--the Texas City disaster in 1947 was actually an explosion of ammonium nitrate, not propane (a French ship was carring the fertilizer--prilled ammonium nitrate--they attempted to extinguish a fire by flooding the cargo area with steam and then closed the hatch / ammonium nitrate is an oxidizer--it provides oxygen to fires even when air is excluded).

[eyeball]

parabellum: but thats not what im talking about though. im saying that many more accidents like what happened on september 11 could happen in the future because of the presense of an armed person aboard the aircraft.

and then the question would be like: "how would you feel if you were on board that plane that crashed when that armed guard took everyone hostage and crashed the plane into that one building?"

[parabellum9x19]

Several authorities have stated that a bullet size hole will depressurize the cabin. But there are special bullets now which with less penetration.

Eyeball you are clueless. Since you are so paranoid that law enforcement will go nuts and shoot everyone, you should stay at home forever. According to your insane logic, all police officers should be disarmed. Maybe you should move to England where no one is allowed guns.

[Byron Quick]

eyeball, El Al flies thousands of flights every year. All of them have armed security. They have for decades. Have you ever heard of a problem such as you envisage on a single El Al flight? No, you have not. Do you know why you have never heard of such? Because it has never happened. When is the last time you have heard of a federal agent going berserk and killing people at random? The policies and procedures of these agencies may be subject to criticism. Some of the agents may be willing to follow very questionable orders. But the agencies are very good at weeding out madmen.

With all of the very real dangers facing all of us today, I believe we need to focus on real dangers rather than playing what ifs with a ten million to one scenario.

Personally, I rarely fly and see no need to change my habits. If I am on a plane being hijacked I will attack the closest while screaming,"Get them!" while whaling away with a cane or a small oxygen tank and I will do it at the moment of the first announcement. Being a nurse, I will have no problem getting a doctor to write me a prescription for either.

I do not believe that most Americans will sit there waiting to become a guided missle after the events of September 11. I know I will not.

Oh, the terrorists on Flight 93 did not attain their objective of turning the flight into another guided missle. The deaths of the passengers was incidental to them. They lost completely. The passengers who resisted were aware of the hijackers objective. From cell phone calls they placed, it is apparent their primary objective had become to prevent the hijackers' from destroying more innocent Americans. They obtained their objective. When the stakes are high enough, "winning" does not necessarily include personal survival. If that were so, many of the holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor would be considered losers. I don't think so. If you do, please go to one of the websites that has the citations for the Congressional Medal of Honor holders, read the citations issued posthumously, and then come back and tell me they lost. I dare you.

We are in a war, people. All of us, not just our government, and not just our military. Read the fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden and supported by thousands of others of his ilk. It does not list just the American government or the American military. It lists all Americans-the elderly, men, women, children, even babes in arms. All of us are targets and all of us must be ready. We must be ready at a moment's notice to answer the call as did Jeremy Glick, Tom Burnett, and Mark Bingham.

[Deaf Smith]

Eyeball, you are right. I can see what you are saying.

I worry about my local sherrif at the county fair jumping up with is 15 shot pistol and killing a whole bunch of people. It give me the willies to think of how the LEOs can hijack the local gas trucks, and just run one into a football game and kill us all! Just takes one LEO nut job. Or one CCW/CHL nut job. Forget all the real nut job terrorist who WANT to do this, lets look at all the people around us that theoreticly can be a nut job. Yes, lets crack down on them!

Gads, just think of the ramfications! Any armed LEO, MILITARY, or CCW/CHL carrier can just walk into a refinery and start shooting inceneraries at the fuel tanks, what a thought. Has it ever happend? Well, no. but it can! It might! Someday!

Hey, any person who can make a bomb, can just blow up a AMTRACK, or get on board with a AK. Holy Toledo.... we have to restrain all passengers by handcuffs for the duration of the journey.

Eyeball, you are right on the nose. Lets get them to ban all people from owning guns, learning martial arts, thinking for themselves. Just tell them to dump them in the river and get to work like good slaves.

We must make the country safe for terrorist. Good guys don't need guns, we have Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, Jackie Chan, and all those action heros to save us. Don't you see them defeating all those bad guys with just brains and karate.

Eyeball, you have got to learn to trust someone, least no one has the power to stop a evil attack. For every chance of a LEO, or CCW carrier doing an evil deed, there are 1000 times more chance of a evil BG doing one and needing one good man to stop them. Get a grip.

Deaf

[Gunter]

When the stakes are high enough, "winning" does not necessarily include personal survival.

Exactly. The first passenger just throws his arms around the BGs neck and brings him to the ground, making sure to land on top. He (the passenger) may even survive this, but the BG is in a position to be stomped. No MA training required, just mindset...

[MatthewM]

Totally agree with just grabbing them. I'm sure that as they walk down the isle they will have their back to you as they pass.

In high school, we did a stunt where you grab someone from behind and squeeze hard. Within 20-30 seconds, they pass out. Not much they can do about it.

I've gotta put this one here in re being a real man:

No matter the time or place, I will "save the day" or die trying. But, I won't whimper or cry before or after. My brother is 5'2" tall. He was in a convenience store when a guy robbed it and was slapping the girl around. The guy was 6'2" tall and armed with a large knife. My brother jumped on him and beat the crap out of him. My brother suffered a huge slash across his abdomen and all his guts were showing. When the cops showed up, my brother was still on top of him smashing his face in. I'm so proud of my brother...

[Hemicuda]

well, I have an idea here...


those were razor blade case cutters, NOT knives... ANYONE who has ever used one, knows that those blades break easier than any other substance known to man (except silence)

I think I (knowing that) WOULD have confronted them, using my lft arm (weak side) as a shield... and the instant I felt that blade cut intomy arm, I'd have reefed sideways, while twisting that arm, leaving the blade broken, and the tip in my arm...

that leaves them with no weapon... and me with a good right cross...

next item... peppergas canisters they held... GREAT... fire that stuff off... as they push the button, I take a deep breath, and hold it... I MAY be blinded, but I have stored air... THEY do not, and figuring they're safe, keep breathing.

In that confined space, they're done, with their first inhale... then all I have to do is get my foot on their neck BEFORE I inhale, and keep it there, and I don't HAVE to see..

keep the foot there until thry don't move, wait another 3 minutes, and problem solved, no terrorist...

it REALLY is that easy... you aren't gonna kill me with a box cutter if I am prepared... and peppergas is just gonna get us both, and **** me off... and a ****** off me, is a BAD thing for those who ****** me off...

[Cheapo]

I'm really, really embarassed that I never thought about the throw a blanket over the BG's head trick.

Far, far less risky with an edged-weapon opponent than for one with a firearm.

Talked with my dad Sunday, and he's having nighmares because of past anti-terrorist training. He's always known the possibilities (including CBR), but this reminder has rattled him.

He says hijackings will *ALWAYS* be possible, because all the weapons he needs are ALREADY on the airplane. Think creatively, my friends! :D :cool: :p

[JB-man]

Hey, if you take the BG's out and there is noone flying the plane... get to the controls and man the plane.
It's simple.
Landing it may be bumpy, but anyone can do it....
Most controllers will walk you thru it, but anyone with common sense can snag the basics:
find something to land on, even if its a highway... cars will get out of the way. Lower your speed, and FLAPS DOWN, so you won't stall. Then if you're lined up enough..... put the big bird down. then let the plane stop, and pray you don't hit an overpass.
Geesh, I've seen to many movies.

[Cal4D4]

When your plane gets hijacked, you will be sitting in a window seat eating your smoked almonds and sipping your half can of cola. Some loonie is going to be running down the aisle toward the cockpit - probably a 10 - 20 second journey - bashing and slashing aisle seat people with whatever and screaming about his bomb when he gets up front.

As you climb over Rosie O'Donnell and Congresscritter Natter to end this miscreant's pain you will be stopped by good minded passengers responding to the stewardess' screams as the terrorist applies lethal levels of distortion or slashing to her neck as he warns you to get back. At least for the first few moments most are going to be surprised, confused and demoralized. This is all that is needed at first.

Cockpit doors are designed to yield at 40# of force so cockpit can be an escape route, just in case. If that door doesn't yield and the pilot has the stones he can make life marginal for anyone not strapped in.

Give the engineer a video monitor on the cargo and the aircrew a panic button. FAA can work out approved barrel rolls and whoop de doos. "Attention passengers, please put on your seatbelts, you have a hijacker standing in 1st class and I am about to start evasive maneuvers". If the perp straps in, have the air crew halt the drill and beat the perp to mush a la the panicky woman in "Airport".

As for air marshals, 10,000 flights /day. El Al, 1-2000 flights/year.

[parabellum9x19]

Bush has authorized 2 generals to give the o.k. to shoot down airlines that are hijacked. Before the 11th only the president had this authority. This has been announced nationwide on t.v. today.

If your plane is hijacked and an airforce jet is coming for the plane your best bet will be to fight the terrorists otherwise you will be shoot down by a jet.

[Byron Quick]

Well, I for one, if on a hijacked plane will try to overpower the hijackers or die trying. If they say they've a bomb then they will have to damn well prove it. And if we fail to overpower the hijackers, I will be praying for the Air Force to shoot us down and blessing the fighter pilots with my last thought. I refuse to be part and parcel of a weapon aimed at my fellow citizens. If someone holds me hostage...hold a funeral service for me and kill the bastards.

"Is life so sweet or peace so dear..."

[Tim Burke]

Hey, if you take the BG's out and there is noone flying the plane... get to the controls and man the plane. If you take the BG's out, there will be some one flying the plane. If you do it early, it should still be the pilot. Please return your seat backs and tray tables to the upright position because you will be landing shortly. And, if you do it late, it may be one of the hijackers. When you try to get him out of the pilot's seat he'll put the plane into a negative g dive, you'll hit the ceiling, and the plane will hit the ground. That's still a success, but it's not a complete success.
The fight will be on as soon as the first passenger resists. Your best chance at survival is to have the first passenger resist as soon as possible. Since the only passenger you have any control over is yourself, you need to plan to be the first passenger. Hurry! I'm not waiting for you.

[parabellum9x19]

Good News. National Guard will be patrolling the nations airports next week.

[capnrik]

How hard is this to figure out? Why in the Sam Hill do you people swear to support the Constitution, and then think it is okay that I be prevented from carrying a pistol on an airplane?

Are you PRO-RKBA, or not?

There is a line in the sand here, which side do you choose?

If you support the 2nd Amendment, then I have the right to carry my .45 on board an aircraft...and the topic of this thread becomes moot.

If you deny the 2nd Amendment, then get back to your discussion about towels and blankets...and include me the hell out.

[Cheapo]

Come on, Cap'n, this is the ALTERNATIVE FORCE/CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT forum. Blankets belong in the discussion. guns still fit in the CQB portion of the mix.

Even if you carry 24/7, the historical record has shown that circumstances can arise where you absolutely cannot deploy your firearm.

If a hammer is the ONLY tool you have, what'chagonnado if the problem facing you is NOT a nail? :eek:

Since your brain and your will (combined) are your greatest weapons, I surely hope that you can think creatively. Then you can contribute to the discussion. :D

Sheesh!

[armedbutnotdangerous]

Capnrik;

I agree with you 100%. I believe it's my right to carry a firearm all the time, anywhere I want.

However, if you or I try to get a firearm on a plane, we're going to get an
extended vacation at the federal gov'ts expense.

I know which battles to pick and that ain't one of 'em!

So, God forbid this situation should happen to anyone of us, we'll
be working with what we've got, not our trusty .45s.

Consequently, this discussion is not moot, and is in fact extremely
pertinent to what's going on.

To restate someone else post, there are any number of things on a plane
that can be used as weapons.

If you ever end up in this situation, observe, think and then act decisively!!!

My two pence.

Steve.

[capnrik]

And I stand corrected. For whatever reason, I responded to this topic completely out of context..."Look at the forum!"

Also got a bit mouthy while I was at it. :(

Cheapo said it best, Your brains and your will are your greatest weapons.

Guess I was partially unarmed at the time. :rolleyes:

[armedbutnotdangerous]

Forgiven!

Takes guts to admit you made a mistake.:D

Steve.

[Cheapo]

Testiness Mode OFF. All is forgiven. Peace, Man!:)