...Why Judo is better than Karate

[Dave3006]

This mpeg tells the whole story.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/video/other/whyjudoisbetterthankarate.mpg

Hee-Hee-Hee

[Skorzeny]

Yes, but did you notice the size difference?

Skorzeny

[Dave3006]

All joking aside, unless weapons are involved, size makes a huge difference. I am amused at the martial artists who think it does not.

Of course, if the karate expert in our mpeg only would have used more ki and called on his famous death touch, it would have turned out much differently. Where's George Dillman when you need him?

Dave

[Bud Helms]

What a great mpeg! LMAO!

I don't come to this forum much. I have tried to visit more often, but I just don't get most of the posts. I value this BB for the firearms threads.

I spent three years in Japan and two in Korea in my youth. I studied the whole time. Keishinkan Do in Ikebukuro, Japan, as a college student, from age 17 until age 20, and Taekwan Do in Pyeoung Taek, Korea, from age 21 until age 23, as a GI. Truthfully, not much since.

Dave3006's comment about size and how he is amused at the martial artists who think it does not matter is an example of why I don't come here much. Dave, I wonder how the value of size was made so important to your understanding of the application of martial art forms. I assume you are referring to the Oriental forms.

What form or style is it you studied that taught you to understand that the size of an opponent can make such a huge difference? Do you mean all other skills being equal? Speed? Mental focus? Ability to concentrate on one muscle group? Do you think "size make a huge difference" in all cases?

[Skorzeny]

Sensop:

I think what Dave is saying is (correct me here if I misrepresent) that in a real unarmed fight, the size differential makes a GREATER difference that many martial artists make it out to be.

Can skill overcome the size difference? Wholeheartedly yes! However, when there is a significant size/weight differential or any other significant physical attribute disparity, the inverse skill disparity would also have to be significant to overcome the former.

I've heard too many martial art instructors go on about how "size makes no difference." Oh, yes, physical attributes (including size) do make a very significant difference - that is the reason why "combat sport" professionals try to get stronger, faster and more powerful.

That whole "with my techniques, even a small woman can beat a 250lb. gorilla" is a marketing gimmick. Serious instructors emphasize techniques AS WELL AS physical attribute development and realistic sparring.

BTW, I trained in Japan and Korea for several years as well. Nothing magical about those places...

Skorzeny

[Skorzeny]

Dave:

Sensei Dillman is busy knocking out people who are absolutely standing still and expect to be knocked out...

Try hitting that nickel-sized nerve while you are in a fight...

Skorzeny

[Bud Helms]

Nothing magical ... I guess I tried to get tooooo serious, huh? No offense intended.

Well, back to "Art of the Rifle". I'll try to read more and post less here, if that's possible. :D

Take it away!

[Dave3006]

Skorzeny said it all. I could not agree more.

Dave

[Mike Spight]

Some good points here. Anyone familiar with Mr. Rob Redmond's website? It's hilarious and pretty well validates some of the points made in this topic and others.

www.24fightingchickens.com

Redmond is a Shotokan 3d Dan who studied in Japan for two years. I would imagine he's considered to be a real "**** in the punchbowl" by Shotokan poo-bahs here in the US.

Mike

[Dave3006]

On second thought, Skorzeny did sum up exactly what I believe. However, I think it is worth mentioning my motivation behind my statements. Sensop seems to have had his feelings hurt by my statements that one martial art is superior to another. Well, I would love to hold hands with all martial artists and sing "We are the world". But, I keep coming back to the fact that martial arts need to primarily work on the street. All the spirtual development mumbo jumbo is a distant second. It is only logical that some arts are more realistic and effective than others. I remember Chuck Taylor stating in a class, "What you believe can get you killed". The $64,000 question is - what are you going to believe about fighting and the selection of the right training methods for fighting. This deserves to be debated and discussed. And, I do not apologize for hurting anyones feelings. If I convince them of their martial art's limitations, I have done them a big favor. We are big boys now. We can take the criticism.

Is Judo the perfect martial art? Hardley. I do know that if two fighters have roughly the same striking ability, if one of the fighters wants the struggle to go to the ground - it will. The person getting hit the most usually makes this decision. I spent 10 years in Shotokan and got my Shodan black belt. I liked Karate. But, I have never met a more brainwashed group. My first day in a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class, I was taken down a dozen times by blue belts. My Karate could not stop them. So, in a sense, my Karate sensei did me a diservice by not training realistically. The real person to blame was me. I believed him. I should have known better. My Karate was worthless on the ground. All my Karate instructor could say was that it shouldn't have gone to the ground. That was the dumbest thing I had ever heard. It did. I did repeatedly.

Dave

[Danger Dave]

Absolutely size (or at least strength) makes a difference. If it didn't, there wouldn't be weight divisions in all combative sports. By leveling the size playing field, the contest becomes more about skill/preparation than physical advantages.

Fighting, I think, is largely about advantages - exploiting yours, while preventing him from exploiting his. Superior skill is an advantage. Size/Strength is an advantage. Ditto for speed, endurance, numbers, tolerance for pain, a good old fashioned mean streak (vastly underrated, IMHO), weaponry, etc., etc - there are too many to be counted here.

If you can force your advantages on your opponent while preventing him from doing the same to you, you win. If not, you don't.

[Bud Helms]

"... Sensop seems to have had his feelings hurt by my statements that one martial art is superior to another. "

Not at all, Dave. And I do realize my post was unnecessarily aggressiveness and a challenge where none was warranted. My apologies.

[Spectre]

Size does matter. I will not dispute that.

I have, however, often trained with much larger (not hard, at less than 150 lbs) partners. Often these partners were over 7" taller, and considerably heavier.

Many of these larger folks had horrible skills. They relied on their size and strength instead of learning something new- finesse, balance, controlled speed. I could often see their disdain at training with a hobbit.

I often had to work hard not to hurt them- in fact- whatever their rank- if I knew they didn't want to train with me (in the last 3 years), they have uniformly been terrible training partners.

I had found that these same individuals usually carry more tension than smaller, more skilled people. That means that I get more return for every strike I put into them. Having a much higher center of gravity, it is also invariably much easier to get them off balance.

"Larger targets." :D

[gryphon]

Problem is that most people treat martial arts as a form of competition and exercise instead of what it was originally designed, a means to defend ones life with the use of no weapons.

The reason most martial artists cannot fight at all is because they are not trained to fight, they are trained to compete in tournament or they are not forced to take the art to which they practice seriously.

The majority of the schools of martial arts in order to stay in business must cater to the highest denominator in order to keep revenue flowing. This is after all a business in this country, so the dojos "market" their styles as exercise, ways to develop self confidence, and the list goes on ad infinitum(just look in the yellow pages for more examples).

I could continue on but then this would become a diatribe of my own beliefs and convictions, and I'm sure none of you have that kind of time.

But beyond being serious, the video was quite humorous :)

[Spectre]

Gryphon,

I don't think these guys made that mistake- rather, they assumed that (1) they wouldn't get anything from training with a little guy, and (2) little guys are no threat.

Usually they changed their mind after I started hitting their kyusho, unless they determined that it was because they were being "nice" to me. :rolleyes: (I couldn't hit ANY of these guys as hard as I usually strike in training with good ukes, without them whining.)

[witzig]

You do not seem to understand that yes,in combat sports,size des matter and that there are weight divisions.But this is only because these fights are in a controlled atmosphere,with a soft surface,a ring,and many many rules.It is not the real thng and of course size will make a difference there.
But there are no rules in a street fight and it comes down to who is the better fighter,not the size of his biceps.
Mind you,there are martial arts out there that do favour big,physically strong people,but they are useless.If an art relies upon brute strength and extra aggression,listen to my advice...forget it!
Because if you are injured,tired,sick or confused,you are in trouble.

[ATeaM]

That's a very interesting point witzig. What experience have you had on the street to prove your theory ?

[Skorzeny]

Witzig:

If you are from the Tanaka Clan, then show us the Dim-Mak, the Death Touch!

Who needs physical attributes when you can damage internal organs of your opponent with your death massage!

In all seriousness, size and strength are but two of many physical attributes. Others included speed, endurance and tolerance for pain (more neurological and mental than physical, I suppose).

They ALL make a difference (to varying extents) as disparity in skill levels and efficacy of particular techniques do.

To say that physical attributes make no difference in a fight is as ignorant and unrealistic as to say that skills make no difference.

What exactly is your training in "martial" arts?

Skorzeny

[witzig]

Firstly,I do not believe in this bull.... death touch and crap,nor precision hits on nerve centres.

[Danger Dave]

So, in an open, no rules fight, a 250lb man has no advantage over a 90lb woman?

PLEASE!

Yes, it's possible for the smaller person to win. There are many other factors besides size that come into play in a fight. BUT size IS a factor.

Think of it this way: Which would you rather fight - a highly skilled, mean as heck fella who's your size, or an equally trained & mean fella who's got an extra 75 lbs of muscle?

Thought so.

PS - I haven't seen a martial art yet that nuetralized size - some are better at it than others, but an advantage is an advantage.

[eyeball]

IMO playing sports like football or even rugby would prepare somebody for a fight better than any martial arts can.

however, im talking about a real student of the game. like for example, defensive lineman have all of these nifty moves that incorporates their size and speed to the max.

[Danger Dave]

Eyeball, I disagree. The history of pro football players who have turned professional boxers is, well, sad. They were completely unprepared for the very different demands a combative sport placed on them.

On the other hand, most martial arts are not taught/trained as fighting styles, but as "arts". A person who trains to fight will learn to fight, a person who trains do art will be an artist, a person who trains to tackle will learn to tackle.

On the plus side, contact sports condition people physically & mentally to the idea of hard contact & build stamina in the face of adversity, something many martial arts schools fail to do. But that, I believe, is a fault of the intensity & focus of the training, not "martial arts".

[RazorsEdge]

While the UFC has its own limitations, it still, for me, was a watershed in my understanding. At a minimum, it proves that all that Oriental mystical mumbo-jumbo is a load of ripe meadow muffins.

Until something better comes along, I consider the UFC to be the best forum to separate the truth from the horse hockey. In UFC, the little guy wins only about 10% of the time, generally because of better grappling skills or because big guy is a fat boy who runs out of gas too fast. (Unless fat boy PASSES gas, which is always an instant win.)

Otherwise, if big guy is fit AND skilled, little guy is toast. There IS NO inherent advantage to being smaller, except in getting pounded into small hole in ground.

[eyeball]

Danger Dave:

who said that a fight is a boxing match? Just because pro football players don't do well as professional boxers doesn't tell much. I mean, in a boxing match, you are not allowed to tackle and grab and push and head butt and junk. besides, i bet you can name all of the pro football turned pro boxers on only one hand.

As I stated earlier, hard contact sports are better "martial arts" than... martial arts.

[Danger Dave]

I never said boxing was fighting - it's just one dimension/range of it. What makes you think football/rugby is fighting? It's further away than boxing! Grabbing, headbutting, knees, groin shots, pushing, biting, tackling, armbars, eye gouges, tripping, kicking - I've seen them all in boxing matches!

Where do "contact sports" teach you to punch, kick, or throw your opponent to the ground, then choke or stomp them into oblivion? When does that happen? When during rugby practice do they practice escaping a choke, or blocking a leg kick? Where are the counters a simple punch?

The big difference I see is that the big guy who just tackled you on the football field isn't going to try to finish you once he gains the advantage. The boxer/fighter/[insert combative sport here] is - that's the object of the game they play. There's a big difference in how you approach the situation when you're looking another man in the eye and you KNOW that if they ever get the chance to finish you, they will - and you'd better do the same.

Martial arts IS a hard contact sport, if it's practiced correctly - the accumulated injuries I carry I didn't get by standing in the corner while everybody else worked out. You can't learn to take a punch/kick/throw through the mail, anymore than reading a book would prepare me to play rugby.

I would agree, however, that most martial artists - or people for that matter - have no more concept of real fight than a Khalahari Bushman has of nuclear energy.

[Correia]

I don't consider myself any kind of martial artist. I have trained for a few years, and I enjoy it, but I will be the first to admit that I don't know much.

But come on now. Size does matter. If the size is all they have, and they have no skill, or drive, or will then it probably doesn't matter. But if you put 2 fighters of equal skill and one of them weighs an extra 50 pounds, he will probably win.

My teacher used to say that the scariest thing you could fight were either very big men, or very fast men, but the scariest thing that you could ever fight was a fast big man. :)

-Larry Correia
Big & Slow

[ATeaM]

Dave, don't you know ANYTHING ?

Maaan...back when I was in highschool, and played Rugby/football sheeeeit...I could rip fools arms off like Chewbacca. I didn't need any of that ching chong China man stuff. Still don't. I 'd just hit the gym and get my yoke on,
then I'd ruck and maul for a couple hours each day. All those beers we drank after practice was all the training I'd ever need.

Yea, for sure dude.

[witzig]

Razors edge,you silly thing...
You think the UFC is a real test?
DO YOU KNOW WHY THE BIG MAN WINS IN UFC?BECAUSE THERE ARE RULES MAN!YOU BELIEVE THE HYPE ABOUT IT BEING FULL ON?
Open your eyes man.
The little person has no oppurtunity to use his stuff in UFC simply because he is not allowed to!
And you think all these Asian martial arts are rubbish?Wonder why you dont see Silat,Kuntao and stuff like this in UFC?Becuae they are lethal arts which emphasise dirty tricks and things that would have you kicked out in a second.
If you wish to see a real no holds barred fight,see if you can get to Russia and watch Spetsnaz troops being tested and graduate their H2H tests.Watch them put in the red square and beat up by 6 of their supperiors,all this after being marched,run and sprinted before hand to exhaust them.
Then tell me what you think of your fun little show,the UFC.

[RazorsEdge]

Mr. Witzig, if you reread my post CAREFULLY, you see that I aknowledge TWICE that the UFC has limitations, so I already made YOUR point. But I think that the UFC, particularly in its earliest form, offered a forum for all the BS artists to come out of the shadows and put up or shut up.

At a MINIMUM, the serious American martial arts community owes the UFC a debt for graphically demonstrating that, across the board, grappling skills had been greatly neglected.

I certainly agree that the UFC is not a real fight, but nothing seen on television is. Bottom line, for both ethical and financial reasons, nobody has any interest in seeing professional atheletes crippled. But the UFC remains a useful laboratory, if you know how to evaluate it.

In closing, I have yet to see any of those guys claiming to be ex-Spetsnaz win big in the UFC.

[Dave3006]

RazorsEdge gets it. The UFC is not perfect. But, it is the closest you can get to real life without having people crippled for life.

If you think you are going to eye gouge and bite your way out of an armbar or choke, you are in la-la land. Fine, you may take a chunk out of me with a bite. But, it won't stop my armbar. It will just **** me off and make me hurt you more once you are defenseless. Also, I can bite and scratch too.

If the whole secret to these "deadly" combat arts is these dirty tricks, it seems like a huge waste of time. I knew how to bite and scratch when I was a kid.

Lastly, until you have actually bitten your way out of an armbar, what makes you think you can do it? I know my technique work because I test them against opponents who resist 100%.

[MAGon]

Dave 3006: I read through the whole thread before I saw the video. Going by the heat in some of the arguments, I thought the video would be something dead serious. It therefore had a double impact on me when I finally did see it. It was hilarious!!!:D I darn near fell from my chair laughing!!! Good sense of humor, there, friend.
As to the thread, just my 2 cents worth: In my Shotokan dojo, during black belt only classes, full contact to the body is encouraged, no protective gear (Occasionally fist pads). Face contact is frowned upon, but it won't get you disqualified, you just have to deal with the consequences of a Dan rank opponent whose madder'n a wet hen!
I've been both the bigger and the smaller fella in more of these types of fights than I care to count. I have to agree that size and strength are the two most determining factors on the outcome of a fight, given two trained opponents of roughly the same level of skill. However, when the levels of skill are very disparate, technique wins out, provided that the more skilled opponent isn't a 90 lbs. stringbean!!

[Dave3006]

I got my Shodan in Shotokan from Sensei Nishiyama. He trained with Funakoshi. I trained for 10 years in Shotokan. I am very familiar with the grueling, rough sparing classes. I agree, if the level of technique is really huge, the fight will not go to the ground. If the two fighters are even close to the same striking ability, it only takes one fighter to decide it will be a grappling fight. You have to be dramatically better than your opponent to dictate that it will be a standing only fight.

Shotokan was great. BJJ is fun. I am glad I have both set of tools in my arsenal.

[witzig]

Razors edge,
no,I dont agree that the UFC invited all the BS artists to come out to see if they are the real deal or not.
Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently.
If rolling around the mat for 20 mins or so in the guard and other silly positions is efficient...?
So how then can you compare UFC to real world combat?
Of course the basis of these other arts I mentioned are just not dirty tricks!But you are taught how to destroy someone quickly and efficiently,things are refined and can be deadly.
If you think that I can simply bite my way out of an armbar...please dont think Iam so naieve..But a bite,scratch or something like this simply leads to a reaction,whatever it may be and you can work from there and get out of that "armbar"
Oh gees,I can imagine a Spetsnaz man in the UFC ring...
He would be put into prison for murder.
"what comrade!,Icannot do this and that!what is this type of fighting!!!???"
They dont need to dabble in this nonsense.

[Dave3006]

The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get ****** off, then break the other arm.

I remember Rickson saying after one class that he was glad that people learned all those other arts. It made things safer for those who knew how to really fight (grapple).

[eyeball]

witzig: no offense but what are you describing sounds like a whole bunch of mystical mumbo jumbo b.s.

maybe some martial arts company should hire you to write advertisements for them or something.

:)

[AdrenalineJunky]

Grappling arts are superior to striking arts. My Thai training includes many strikes that are not allowed in ring bouts. I'm not in the proper shape to fight in the ring, but I have no doubts about my skills in a street fight.
------------------------
"Please,do not forget,that there are differences in the studying of martial arts.People in UFC have a strong "Sport" orientation towards martial arts,people learning SELF DEFENSE and combat cannot compete adequately in the UFC atmosphere,they are just trained to finish a fight brutally and efficiently. "
------------------------
I agree with that. People aren't always trained to compete. And those trained for competition, aren't always the best at defending themselves in a real fight. (If I'm reading that right.) It's sad to see a self acclaimed "martial arts expert" lose a fight to a moderately skilled boxer or wrestler. Most people think that it's just not supposed to happen. But it can, and easily, too.
-----------------------
"The only reaction you would get from me if you were to bite me when I am doing an armbar would be that I would get ****** off, then break the other arm. "
-----------------------
Dave, please don't take this as questioning your fighting ability, but being a master in every art known to man still wouldn't make you invincible. Okay, maybe biting won't deter you. But what happens when my friend cracks you in the head with a bottle? I mean, we are talking street fights here, right? If you're dazed long enough for me to get a good elbow into your adams apple and a push kick or a round kick to your knee, chances are, you won't be breathing or walking too well. Assuming my wits are about me, those two strikes should take little more than a second. Then, it's a totally different scenario.

If you think it won't happen, you could be right. But if you think it CAN'T happen, then you're just setting yourself up for something like that. Now, obviously this is completely hypothetical, and I'm not trying to make any assumptions about your skill vs. mine. I want to make that clear so I don't get a piissed off response. Anyone who has significant sparring experience has been accidentally poked in the eye, hit in the throat, kneed in the groin, or fell prey to a misplaced strike. Make no mistake, that shiit hurts! And, quite honestly, those are the kind of strikes an inexperienced fighter will make when they panic. There are simply too many factors involved in a street fight to predict an outcome. And when we panic, our basic, sometimes infantile, instincts take over. Sometimes those are the things that save our assses.

[Spectre]

WITZIG,

It sounds like you're ready to set up the first The Firing Line "unlimited" series matches. I'm ready.

I suggest only two rules:
No biting
No eye gouging

Anything else goes. Where are you, and what months work for you?

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm beginning to think this has just about run its course. Has it?