Hapkido vs Aikido

[skoonz]

OK, I'm looking for a new martial art and I want to know what you guys reckon about Hapkido and Aikido.

I know I should spread it around a bit and I will but I don't want to end up doing a soft art (e.g. modern day TKD)

I have a bit of experience with Seido karate and I was recomended to try Ju-Jitsu but I can't find an instructor nearby so I've decided between one of these two.

[9mmepiphany]

i might be mistaken, but...isn't aikido a soft style

the only style that comes to mind that might be softer is dim muk...and finding an instructor in that art is neigh impossible

[Spectre]

Hi, skoonz. Welcome to TFL!

By "soft art", I wonder if you mean ineffectual? TKD has a bad reputation among many serious martial artists, but is considered a "hard" style.

Example of "soft" style: Tai Chi Chuan.
Example of hard style: Shotokan Karate.

Being "hard" or "soft" has nothing to do with working well. You should be aware that aikido can be used effectively, but its goal is spiritual perfection.

[Matt Wallis]

Hello!

Aikido is Japanese. Mostly joint locks and throws, lot's of deflection and misdirection. Hapkido, which is Korean, is like Aikido combined with some hard kicking and punching ala the other Korean arts.

There is a legend that Hapkido was developed by a Korean student of the Japanese guy that developed Aikido. Don't know if that's true, but there definitely is a connection between the two.

IMO both styles can be good. I'd think Hapkido is a little more well rounded, but then I've never studied Aikido. And as always the philosophy and ability of individual schools and instructors is usually just as (or more) important than the style.

Hope that helps,
Matt Wallis

[Skorzeny]

Aikido, meaning the Harmony Spirit Way in Japanese, was founded by Ueshiba Morihei, whom his students call O-Sensei. Ueshiba learned a variety of "Jujutsu," including Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu from Takeda Sokaku.

Hapkido, meaning the Harmony Spirit Way in Korean (the two are spelled the same in Chinese characters), was founded and developed by several different Korean "masters," one of whom (Choi Young-Sool) was purportedly either a houseboy or a student of Takeda. However, unlike Ueshiba whose attedendance records exist in a written form, there is no documentary evidence of Choi's training under Takeda.

Practically speaking, Aikido utilizes techniques of throws and joint-immobilizations while Hapkido utilizes those in addition to kicks and punches.

Morally, Aikido emphasizes harmony with nature and minimum pain/suffering necessary to control the attacker, while Hapkido emphasizes discipline and deference to your instructor and classmates.

As for the actual efficacy of the styles practiced, well, I won't tell...

Skorzeny

[mikotd52]

The real question is what type of training or martial art are you looking for?

Aikido is primarily a style or system that uses proper balance and form, exploiting the poor form and balance of an opponent. Some Aikido practioners have skills in strikes and kicks, but as a rule most schools do not offer these skills as part of the curriculum for Aikido.

Hapkido is very similar is that many joint locks, manipulations, throws, and breaks are taught, but the big difference is in Hapkido the student starts out learning some very powerful kicking and striking techniques.

Both are very worth while endeavors and I'm sure you'll find either very satisfying

[skoonz]

Thanks for the opinions guys.

My opinion of TKD was formed by a bar fight I got into, in which I (with six months seido karate experience and a two day territorial CQC course) flattened two senior members of the local TKD club. Enough said.

I think I might try Hapkido, it sounds like it is more well rounded then Aikido.

P.S. The TKD guys were stone cold sober, so by soft I mean pathetically ineffective

[Skorzeny]

What are you doing getting into bar fights?

If you relate that story, most of the hippie New Age Aikido dojo will not take you in. They really prefer non-confrontational students (not the kind who says "uh, I don't think that Kotegaeshi stuff will actually let you catch my fist when I try to punch your face out" - Bam! See, didn't work).

As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.

Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.

Skorzeny

[skoonz]

It was my first and only bar fight and I wasn't trying to get into it. I had entered a pool competition with a mate and beat these guys quite badly (six balls) and they couldn't take it so they tried to act tough and push my mate around, I told them where to go and one took a swing at me......bang...bang - no more problem. They were later kicked out of the class. Whether it was for being @$$holes or losing to me I don't know:D

However whatever art I choose must be practical, no karate kid standing on one leg rubbish.

I was told hapkido was a modern variant of another art - Hwa Rang Do. Is this true, and how is Hwa Rang Do as an art

[ATeaM]

New Zealand eh ? What was it that Filho and Ray Sefo study ? Kyukushin something or other? Anyways...K1 sports are popular in your neck of the woods. You should check out Muay Thai or one of the arts popular in K1. I bet there are more schools in your area and you just don't know it. Most don't list in the local directory (why I don't know...). www.axkickboxing.com , there is a guy from New Zealand who trains proffessional fighters who I bet could give you a good rundown of the quality schools in your area. Check it.

[skoonz]

Thanks Ateam I'll check that out.

BTW I was talking to someone about the TKD guys and I heard they were an anabolic steroids - explains the attitude.

[gryphon]

Hapkido was one of the major styles I have been practicing since I was ten(I'm now 27). Out of all the styles that I have practiced this one seems to be what I revert back to whenever I am in doubt.

Hapkido has a lot of the joint locking and circular-smooth blocking and throws of aikido coupled with the hard linear kicking of say a Tae Kwon Do and the straight forward hand strikes of say Shotokan.

This is a good art if you wanted to learn both grappling techniques as well as striking techniques, but didn't want to take 2 different styles.

[witzig]

As said by Skorzeny,there are "hippie" Aikido schools out there,forget them.
Go with a school that teaches more traditional and practical methods and I would rate above Hapkido.
You will learn to move correctly,stay balanced and you dont have to be very strong.

[skoonz]

I've found a combat hapkido school and I am going to go along tomorrow night. That thing about Aikido and balance doesn't seem to fit right with my two left clumsy size 12 feet:D

Thanks for all your help guys!

[Skorzeny]

Hwa Rang Do was developed by some among the same group of "masters" who came up with Hapkido.

It claims to be the system used by medieval Hwa Rang (flower youth) of the Shilla Kingdom, who were a medieval Korean version of the Hitler Jugend.

That claim, of course, is completely non-sensical. The system was developed during the post-colonial period (1945 and on).

There is no such thing as "Combat Hapkido" unless you count a recent "development" that attempts to take advantage of recent popularity of combatives and grappling arts.

Skorzeny

[swsurgeon]

If you are interested in an art that does a good job of integrating both weapons and empty hand, check out Filipino Martial Arts (variously referred to as Eskrima, Kali, Arnis, etc.).

[witzig]

No no man,you will not learn to walk the tightrope or anything!
You will just learn to be light and easy on your feet,no matter how big and clumsy you may happen to be.
This is actually the best way of fighting,to have gliding and smooth footwork,not crazy and unneccesary like a boxers.You will also learn energy preservation which is also extremely important for real world applications.
To Skorzeny...
The nickname you have is one of a battlefield legend,a commando commander of the highest calibre.

[ATeaM]

"This is actually the best way of fighting,to have gliding and smooth footwork,not crazy and unneccesary like a boxers."


Where did you learn how to box zitwig ?

[Skorzeny]

Witzig:

I'd like to see some Aikidoka "glide lightly" against even amateur boxers with their "clumsy" foot work. I think it wold be hilarious for me, but probably not for most Aikidoka.

Thank you for telling me about my own handle. I know who Otto Skorzeny was.

Skorzeny

[witzig]

Ha ha ha,very funny boys...
Imagine....
you have had a hard day at work,you may not be feeling your best.
It is getting dark,you have got off the bus and make you way home.
Two punks sneak up on you and want to beat you up.
NOW.Would you,could you,should you,go into boxer mode and start shuffling and dancing all over the place?Energy to do this at these times?Christ,it may even lead you to trip on something.
What Iam trying to say is do only what is needed!.Dont waste energy.
I did not say that boxers had clumsy footwork,read my post again please.
Play around with any friends of your that may happen to be boxers,what do they do,even when play fighting?They move their feet around constantly.Needed for the ring but not the streets.
Hell,one leg forward and one back?the boxer is already off balance friends,a good Aikido practicioner should be able to exploit this.
Big big problem though,how many proper Aikido schools are there around?Not many at all.Join most of them,and you will actually go backwards in the world of H2H.

[ATeaM]

Wait wait, I just saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" after I posted. I now have a better understanding of this "gliding" footwork. No need for further explanation.

[Skorzeny]

Based on Witzig's description, I have a mental image of boxers as people who shake hysterically at every turn (like some musical movies of bygone years).

I think that you need to check out a local boxing gym, Witzig.

Better yet, check out a local Muay Thai gym.

Skorzeny

[Spectre]

While I do understand what witzig is saying about boxers bouncing in the ring, boxers are quite effectual, as a rule. Somehow, I can't see a boxer "dancing" when confronted by punks on the street.

As far as one foot forward, one foot back, almost all stances *I* practice are like this. Since I can leap or run in any direction, I don't feel off balance...

[AdrenalineJunky]

"As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.

Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.

Skorzeny"
--------------------

I can offer a little bit of personal experience here. I have been practicing Muay Thai for a while and, aside from a little Tai Chi, it's the only form I've practiced. When I was in training there weren't a lot of people in the class. In fact, our class lost several people to the local Tae Kwon Do class. In their defense, my teacher was very strict and expected you to work hard regardless of your age. He didn't teach us knee and elbow strikes until we'd reached the "advanced level." Anyway, since the nearest Thai school back then was in San Francisco (some 150 mi. away), we began sparring with the TKD class.

Now, these were bouts, we were competing, but we were fully padded(I was only thirteen at the time). The first guy I went up against was a couple years older than I was and about 15/20lbs heavier. He could do full splits and amazing aerial kicks. He had been to several M.A. camps and was working on his black belt. I was just shy of a year's training and was the most advanced student in the class. Needless to say, I was scared sheetless.

I very quickly found out that the TKD kicks he was throwing were much less effective than the round kicks and push kicks I was throwing. Same thing with punches. No throws or elbows(or head-butting) were allowed. It was very easy to tell that we were trained to fight in the ring and their training was more for "show." I don't think the word "show"is accurate, but it's the only word I could think of.

Thai fighting is very easy to master because there are very few offensive and defensive positions, and very few strikes. The difference is in conditioning your body to take high-impact strikes and returning with a high-impact strike. TKD students could do some visually amazing things, but they weren't conditioned to participate in "brutal" battles in the ring.

[Skorzeny]

Adrenaline Junky:

I trained in Tae Kwon Do for over ten years both in the US and Korea. I earned my blackbelt at the Kukiwon (World Tae Kwon Do Federation HQ in Seoul). I thought that I knew a thing or two about kicking until I sparred with an amateur Muay Thai fighter.

He kicked me once in the thigh with his shin (which was alien to me) and I just about keeled over. Needless to say, the sparring was done. More experiences like this and further observations have convinced me that Muay Thai is without equal among Asian striking arts.

BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!

Skorzeny

[Spectre]

Heh. My favorite close-in move is a knee strike to the thigh. Smarts, don't it? :D

[RazorsEdge]

I would go with Hapkido. From what I've seen it's far more street oriented. Besides, in akido, you have to wear a dress.

[9mmepiphany]

hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress"

i'm not talking about his movie fight scenes. segal, like norris and lee, really can do those things in real life,

[AdrenalineJunky]

"hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress" "
--------------------------------

Being a big Steven Segal fan, I would have to say that someone with Segal's ability and knowledge would flatten your average Joe on the street. The thing about Aikido, which has left me with little motivation to learn the form, is that it's 98% defense oriented. There are very few offensive strikes and none of them, to my knowledge, lead to offensive combinations. This would make it very hard to initiate contact both, in the ring, and on the street. Also, Aikido, much like Tai Chi, is a glorified form of meditation emphasizing movement. Both are very beautiful art forms with graceful movements.
--------------------------------
"BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!

Skorzeny"
--------------------------------

Yeah, I showed my Mom a few combos. Her favorite is: grab the shirt, right push kick to the groin, come up with the right knee to the face. With my Mom and my girlfriend I emphasized push kicks because they don't require a lot of skill, they're powerful and they can be done at close range.

I prefer close-range strikes. Round kicks are great for the ring and sparring, but in street brawls they can leave you uncovered and a bit off balance. They don't link well with combos and will serve you better as single strikes or combo finishers. Knees are my favorite. The logic is simple, you can't breathe, you can't fight. There are a lot of people who don't have any idea what to do when someone's that close to them. And they have little time to think about it when an array of knees, elbows, hooks, uppercuts and head-butts are being thrown at them. That's when you target the legs with round kicks and push kicks to the inner thigh.

Anyway, to answer the question, I think you'll have more fun with Hapkido. If you're interested in competition, there will probably be events other than ring fighting to participate in(weapons, kata, etc.). But, again, I have no experience in either form, so I'm making an assumption.

[Skorzeny]

Adrenaline Junky:

I hate to burst your bubbles, but Steven Seagal lives in a fantasy land of his own.

He was choked to complete unconsciousness by Gene "Judo" Lebell (who is over 60 years old) on a movie set. Seagal was rough handling the extras and stuntmen, who asked Lebell to talk to Seagal about it.

Lebell said something to the effect to Seagal that it is easy to throw around people who won't hit back. Seagal then told Lebell that he can get out of any holds. Lebell made a motion of choking him and Seagal grabbed Lebell's groin. Smiling, Lebell said something to the effect of "are we just playing or doing it for real?"

Seagal said "for real" at which point Lebell put him in a choke hold and poor Seagal passed out and relieved himself at the same time.

Afterwards, he fired everyone on the set and promised to sue anyone who divulged the whole sordid story. It got out though and has been verified by several who were there. Real tough guy, isn't he?

Skorzeny

[AdrenalineJunky]

Notice I used the phrase "flatten the average joe." Meaning that anyone who's skilled in any fighting art form is likely to be able to beat Joe-Shmo who's walking down the street starting shiit. I am a fan of Segal's movies and have no personal knowledge of his off camera behavior. The fact that Segal, or any movie star, for that matter, is a total dickk in real life, in no way effects the fact that I like his movies. Movie stars aren't movie stars because they're the nicest people on the planet. And I think it's cool that someone taught Segal a lesson. The fact that he's an actor does't make him better than anyone else. When people act like assses, they need to be called on it. As far as "bursting my bubble" goes, Christ, I wasn't suggesting Segal was God. I was saying I like to sit down with a bag of popcorn and a soda and watch his flicks.

BTW, tell your wife that round kicks and push kicks just below the knee are brutally painful and very effective when it comes time to defend yourself from someone bigger. That is, if she doesn't already know, sounds like she's got some experience.

"There's nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge..." -HST, Literary Genius

[RazorsEdge]

Well, if Segal wears a dress, thren I'm going to quite watching that sissy boy.

While aikido can be highly effective, it depends on the "bad guy" to over commit his body weight and leave his "tools" hanging out there for you to grab them.

Experienced street fighters aren't going to do this.

[MAGon]

Although a student of Shotokan, I like to cross pollinate with other styles and arts (Something, by the way, which is encouraged by my Sensei, who'll frequently invite other Sensei and their students to our Dojo, both to teach and to mix it up). When I travel anywhere for more than a week, there's always a Gi in my suit case.
About 10 yrs. back, on a 3 mos. trip, I wound up training at a Tang Soo Do Dojang in Frederick, Md. I also got to compete in 2 tournaments while there. From what I could see and was told, Korean styles (Mainly TKD) were overwhelmingly dominant in this area. In spite of what I had for yrs. been hearing from other Japanese stylists, I came away impressed by both the skill and fighting spirit I saw among these Korean stylists. The only basic differences I saw were a tendency (And not very marked) towards higher kicks or spinning ones, and that they were more disciplined about not making contact.
This brings me to my questions, and I don't mean to challenge anybody by it. From what I keep reading here, Korean styles aren't all that well thought of as real fighting arts. This flies so hard in the face of what I experienced then that I have to ask: Why this poor opinion? Is it that Korean arts have degenerated so badly in the last 10 yrs., or is it that better Korean "Karate" is taught in Maryland? What do you disgusted former TKD people think?

[swsurgeon]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with Korean martial arts. However, the blemish on its reputation comes from some overly commercial schools (known in the trade as "Take One's Dough") that have cheapened/diluted Korean martial arts for the purpose of making a buck. There are plenty of serious Korean martial arts practitioners who can whoop some real backside. I'm sure that the "get your black belt in twelve easy lessons" places absolutely enrage them.

[Skorzeny]

swsurgeon:

Most Korean styles suffer a HUGE credibility gap with me for the reason that they completely FABRICATE the history of their arts.

Many Korean schools do not even admit to the Japanese origin of most of their "native" styles (like Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, ad naseum, ad infinitum...).

On top of that, many Korean styles altered their systems to make them "less Japanese" resulting in a lot of superfulous and, quite frankly, ridiculous techniques (like running jumping sidekick) being added.

I have no doubt that there are some tough folks in the Korean martial arts scene, but not necessarily because of their systems.

Skorzeny

[LASur5r]

Hi Skorzeny,
Didn't know too many people knew about Gene LeBell making Segal do the "chicken." Know a guy that was on the set when that happened and Segal did fire the folks who witnessed him "doing the chicken."
From what I heard, he promised that he wasn't going to "fire" anyone if he couldn't get out of the hold. Guess he wasn't telling the truth.

Know a Kempo studio operator who Segal dropped in on and challenged him. Friend, out of respect, declined....Segal stooped to name calling.
Understood it took 15 seconds to drop Segal, then put him in a hold to knock him out.

Go figure. Know the people involved....they have nothing to prove and they are quite competent.

Good to see that you travel in similar circles.

[LASur5r]

Hi Spectre,
Know what you mean about that knee strike... guys hate it because of the Charley horse that stays a while.
If you don't already use it, it works great when someone tries a roundhouse type kick at your groin or kidney area...just aim that knee strike without too much power at the striking leg.

I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg....it still makes me queasy, but you see the shin break of the kicker and his leg goes off in two different directions.

Yuccchhh!, Haven't used it hard enough to break someone's leg, but I have certainly dropped guys in fights with that counter strike. Usually end of fight for that opponent at that time. Hope you don't have to use it, but keep it in mind.

Take care and Viceroy 808 said to say hi! He's still in the service, climbing up the ladder.

[ATeaM]

"I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg"

Muay Thai 101:

That was a roundhouse kick that was blocked, not a "knee strike" or "slap kick".

[zot]

if I throw a punch to a BG throat and then slap his nose back with
a open palm HARD , then punch chest, and straight hand hit side
of neck, WHAT KIND of martial arts could this be ?:confused:

[LawDog]

That would be a percussive, or 'hard' style. As opposed to a grappling, or 'soft' style.

As far as identifying the exact martial style by the combination -- that's really not possible, it could belong to any of the percussive styles or all of the combatives styles.

LawDog

[Slish]

Guys,

Be aware that there are TWO distinct schools of Tae Kwon Do out there. What almost everyone knows about today is the World TaeKwon-Do Federation (***). The other is the Interntional TaeKwon-Do Federation (ITF). The reason for the existance of two major camps is strictly political, but why "most serious martial artists" look down on TKD is because of the changes made to the systems by the *** in order to gain acceptance as an Olympic "sport".

The ITF was founded and is still led by the man known as the
"father" of TKD: General Choi, Hong Hi. General Choi coined the phrase "Tae Kwon Do' (literally "hand and foot art") to describe a synthesis by five major schools of Korean striking arts in the mid-1950s. General Choi penned the original treatise on the modern art (of which I still have an old tattered copy). General Choi spent severa years in Japan as a young man and studied Shotokan karate. The "official" TKD of the fifties includes "kata" from Okinawan styles. (The first kata I learned from my Shorin-Ryu instructor, naihanchi-shodan, is in the textbook!)

My first three TKD instructors taught ITF-style TaeKwon-Do, and it is brutally effective. We spent a good portion of each night doing conditioning drills blocking full-power kicks and punches. Talk about bruises! BUT... we also spent a signigicant amount of time learning to "slip" punches and using an opponent's momentum against them. I have recently spent some time in a local Kyokushin-kai dojo. My 28 year old TKD is 95% identical to the Kyokshin they are teaching! (At a seminar several years ago, a group of us (ahem) "experienced" yudansha were discussing how similar all styles of "hard" martial arts were once you got past the basics. As Bruce Lee is quoted as having said, (and I paraphrase)
"Before I started in the martial arts, a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. Then I found that a kick was more than just a kick and a punch was more than just a punch. After I really learned the martial arts, I found out that a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch."

Bottom line, guys. Find a reputable sensei, sabumnim, or instructor in the type of system you want (hard or soft) and work at it. The system doesn't make you effective, you do. (kinda like it's not the gun, it's how well you use it, right???)

Regards,
Mike Slisher

BTW, I started in Shorin-Ryu in March of 1973, and have been active pretty much since then in MA. Third degree in TKD, experience without Dan rankings in Shorin-Ryu, Aikido, and Ueichi-Ryu, and Kyokushin-kai.

[Skorzeny]

That's because Tae Kwon Do does NOT come from "five major schools of Korean striking arts." It comes from Shotokan.

Funny thing, "the founder" of Kyokushin was also an ethnic Korean who learned Shotokan.

As much as Korean revisionists love to represent Tae Kwon Do (of any political hue) as native, the fact remains that these are Japanese-originated systems.

"Real" Korean systems, which were mainly based on Chinese styles, mostly died out during the Japanese occupation.

The difference between ITF and *** is really miniscule when you compare either to, say, Muay Thai.

Skorzeny

[Slish]

FYI, as best as I can recall, Japan has no real home grown striking systems. Even Shotokan, the "quintessential" Japanese Karate, was introduced to the islands by an Okinawan national, Gichin Funakoshi.

:o :eek:

[Matt Wallis]

Uh, Despite whay Skorzeny says, "Slish" is mostly right.

I have a 1str Dan in ITF style TKD. And although I haven't necessarily heard that TKD is a synthesis of "5 different styles" two things are documentable (and at least accepted). 1. Is that Choi Hong Hi, the founder of modern TKD studied the korean art of Taekyon. 2. Is that Choi also achieved at least a 2nd degree in Shotokan while studying in a University in Japan.

This explains the Japanese link in TKD and does not deny or ignore the similarities between Japanese arts and TKD. But it also means there is a legitimate link between TKD and traditional Korean arts. Now there has also been a continual change and influence in TKD from both traditional Korean arts as well as other outside influences.

So TKD is neither a "thousand year old traditional Korean art" or a made up art from other sources. Actually, It's both!

Matt Wallis

[LawDog]

I seem to remember that shotokan karate was introduced to Japan in either 1916 or 1922, depending on who you talk to, from Okinawa.

The Okinawa systems (I think, better check me on this) were a combination of Chinese and homegrown arts.

LawDog

[Skorzeny]

First of all, my apologies for lumping Okinawa with Japan. What I meant by "Japan" was today's "by-the-map" Japan, rather than "cultural" Japan that excludes the Ryukyus.

In my defense, while Funakoshi Giichin "brought" Okinawan Karate to Honshu, Shotokan is now properly considered "Japanese" assimiliated Karate system by the Japanese while distinctively Okinawan systems still remain independent.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up "Tae Kyon." The funny thing about this mythical art is that it is almost without any historical documentation or reference in Korean historical texts. Even if such a thing existed, it is IMPOSSIBLE that it was a system of "a thousand years" or General Choi learned it.

What little actual Korean historical documentation shows about "ancient" Korean systems is largely transmissions of Chinese manual of man-at-arms exercises.

BTW, I lived in Japan and Korea for over 10+ years. During those times, I studied local fighting systems (not just martial arts) extensively (I also interviewed and documented conversations with notable military figures, but that's another story).

Lastly, it is very true that almost all Japanese systems owe their lineage to Chinese transmission. But the Japanese by and large acknowledge that origin whereas the Koreans, well, don't. Some Korean Yudo schools still teach that Yudo comes from Korean "Yusul" (Jujutsu), rather than Japanese Judo.

Skorzeny

[Spectre]

(Ian,)

I've always understood "hard" and "soft" to be related to the amount of tension the user carried. There are hard and soft Chinese "Kung Fu" styles, for instance...

[LawDog]

Spectre, now that I think about it, you are probably correct. Somewhere along the way, I wound up thinking of the striking arts as being 'hard' styles and the grappling as being 'soft' styles.

I should probably work on that. :D

LawDog

[Danger Dave]

sigh...

Much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with Skorzeny ;).

Koreans, in their quest to make TKD uniquely Korean, have created history where there is no verifiable link to the past. There have been martial arts in Korea for quite some time, dating back to at least the Three Kingdoms period (about 1300 years ago), but there is no verifiable link between any modern Korean art and any ancient Korean martial art. There's not one single example that I know of a verifiable instructor-student lineage that goes back further than WWII.

In WWII, the practice of martial arts in Japanese occupied territories was strictly controlled. As a result, a lot of the native martial arts died out, or were at least modified/blended with Japanese arts so as to become unrecognizable as separate martial arts.

BTW, don't buy the ITF's version of TKD history either. General Choi was not the "father of TKD" - he just suggested the name. At the time (1956) it was called TaeSooDo, or Korean Karate and consisted of a loose grouping of schools or "Kwans" - Choi was just one head of a Kwan. The Kwans (there were 7 original, then 2 more added a few years later - all but 3 have since disbanded) were/are the equivelant of the Japanese "Ryus" - not very different in terms of technique, but differing philosophies/emphasis when it came to applications. If anyone is the father of TKD, it's Funakoshi. Strangely, I, like my instructor before me (who's been in TKD since 1963 - only 7 years since there WAS a TKD), was taught the same forms Funakoshi taught in Japan. While the kicks are unique, the stances, hand techniques, blocks, the original forms, etc. all come from Shotokan Karate. His instructor, Dr. Dae Shik Kim, originally taught "karate" when he came to the U.S.

FWIW, Dr. Kim was good friends with another Korean, Mas Oyama. Whenever Oyama was in the southeastern US, he stayed with Dr. Kim at his house. Oyama (along with others, like Koichi Tohei) also taught several classes/seminars for Dr. Kim's students. I know of at least one TKD black belt who was offered rank in Kyokushin karate by Mas Oyama himself...

[MAGon]

Skorzeny:
As to Mas Oyama's Japanese Karate connection: In Jay Glucks' book, "Zen Combat" , which I believe was written sometime in the '50s and for which he extensively interviewed Oyama (Glucks was studying under Oyama at the time), Oyama acknowledges being influenced by Goju Ryu and Gogen Yamaguchi, but I don't recall his mentioning any ties to Shotokan. I could be wrong on this because it's been at least 15 yrs. since I read that book. If I am, I'd be interested in info regarding Oyama's ties to Shotokan, just to get a clearer picture.

[Danger Dave]

Oyama was a student of Funakoshi. After Mas Oyama got himself into some trouble (he was a bit of a thug in his younger days), Funakoshi refused to teach him. Oyama later remarked something to the effect that Funakoshi was a good teacher for children.

[Skorzeny]

Danger Dave:

Thanks for the validation!:)

Why is it so hard for others to agree with? Is it the substance or my repulsive personality?

BTW, we should all remember that Mas Oyama was a colonial Japanese name for the ethnic Korean. I believe he had a Korean name, which escapes me at the moment.

Skorzeny

[LawDog]

I think his Korean name was Yong I-Choi. He adopted the name 'Oyama' to honour the Japanese family who took him in and befriended him when he came to Tokyo for his college education.

Mas Oyama studied Chinese kempo while still in Korea, until he travelled to Japan to study at the Takushoku University. In addition to his college studies, Oyama furthered his martial arts studies under Gichin Funakoshi, reaching the rank of nidan under sensei Funakoshi.

Once his training was over with sensei Funakoshi, for whatever reason, Mas Oyama studied gojo-ryu under a man named Sodeiju. Reaching, if I remember correctly, a 4th dan.

Mas Oyama founded his own school of karate called Kyokushin.

I'm not sure where the connection between Mas Oyama and tae kwon do started, but Mas Oyama was very definently a karate stylist.

LawDog

[Dave3006]

Skoonz, to get back on topic, you need to learn a ground fighting art. You already have a some experience with a stand up striking art. What happens when the fight goes to the ground? Take Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Learn how to fight on the ground. Standing joint locks in Aikido and Hapkido are pure fantasy. Aikido is pure bull**** for pseudo spiritual idiots. Anyone who takes it for self defense deserves to get the crap beat out of them. It does not work in real life. The fight will be either two guys striking on their feet or it will go to the ground. There is no in between.

After you learn to groundfight, take an edged weapons class. Before one of my BJJ classes, I asked a guy who was a Nidan in Yosinkai Aikido to show me what he could do to defend against my knife (a rolled up piece of paper). For the next 5 minutes, I cut his arms, I cut his legs, I stabbed him in the chest. I was not ready to give him one of those big, overcomitted attacks he was used to. It was so pathetic. We finally stopped. The man was bummed out. I figure I did him, and you, a favor by showing him what a waste of time that crap is for self defense.

[swsurgeon]

So Dave, don't hold back---tell us how you really feel about Aikido....

Seriously, I agree with you about the edged weapons training being useful. Knives are a definite threat on the street. My background is mostly in Filipino martial arts so we train with a lot of different weapons. Edged weapons training helps you to recognize the severity of the threat and the difficulty in addressing it.

[Danger Dave]

Skorzeny,
Nah, there's just something confrontational about your posts. Nothing against you, it's just that they make me want to argue with you even when I agree... I dunno, it's weird.

Lawdog,
The story I heard was that Oyama got into a fight with a knife-weilding Yakuza. Oyama punched him in the head, killing him. After that, Funakoshi, a mild mannered man, (IIRC, he was chosen as Okinawa's "karate emissary" to Japan largely because of his even temperment - he was by profession a school teacher), refused to continue to teach Oyama. Then Oyama went to the mountains to meditate & train, the end result of which was Kyokushin...

Dave3006,
I have seen some amazing aikidoka, but I think they were, well, exceptional. I wouldn't dismiss aikido outright, but I think it takes an incredible level of skill to become effective. And the right mental makeup - it's a rare person that can remain calm & relaxed (which is largely required for aikido to work) in the face of someone who's trying to take your head off for real...

BTW, I think if you did your same drill against most martial artists, you would be stunned at how similar the results would be.

[MAGon]

Skorzeny:
Whoa, man!! I wasn't arguing that you were wrong about Oyama training in Shotokan, just that I'd never heard of him doing so :confused:. Know I've got an interesting tidbit of info there. :)

[Dave3006]

The funniest part of my Aikido vs. the rookie with a knife drill was that my entire edged weapons training consists of one Gunsite knife video. It emphasized attacking the exposed limbs (hands, arms, legs) with small uncommitted attacks. I never gave the Aikido guy an opening to unbalance me. It was so easy. It made me really respect ANYONE with a knife.

I do not apologize for attacking the validity of some martial arts. They are not all equal. Some are based on faulty premises. Such as the premise that a person can stay relaxed and centered in a violent struggle. It goes against human nature. You have to pick an art that acknowledges human biological responses to adrenaline and emphasizes simple, non-complex techniques. You loose coordination, your fine motor skills are shot, you tunnel vision, and you (and your opponent) do not feel pain as much. You have to plan for these things. Don't fall for the all the Asian mumbo jumbo. I'll take a boxer over 5 Aikido guys any day.

KISS. Keep it simple stupid - because when you are under attack, you get really stupid.

[Dave3006]

One more story of the need to plan for natural human responses:

When you are getting hit in a fight, you will naturally attempt to clinch your opponent to get safe and regain composure.

- I studied Shotokan for 10 years. I made it to 1st Dan. I trained 6 days a week for 1-2 hours per day. I would not rate myself as great. Just decent. I stepped into a BJJ studio and the small little Brazilian and I put on some gloves and decided to test my Karate. Besides the fact that his boxing skills were better than my karate, everytime I started to get hit, I NATURALLY tried to grab and clinch him to stop the blows. The situation repeated itself several times. He would take me to the mat and all my Karate was worthless. It was the best lesson I ever learned.

When I explained this to my Sensei in karate, all he could say was that the fight should not have went to the mat. It did. It did repeatly. That was the stupidest statement I had ever heard. Talk about denying reality.

How much of your martial art denies reality? That is the question.

[LawDog]

Dave3006, in my humble opinion all martial arts have their faulty premises -- even BJJ.

Part of becoming a martial artist is recognizing these faults and adapting your version of the style to minimize them.

LawDog

[MAGon]

Dave 3006:
IMHO an interesting thing comes out everytime in threads relating to unarmed combat: Most modern martial arts (Particularly those of Japanese origin) are overspecialized, emphasizing one aspect or another of fighting (Grappling ONLY, or striking ONLY) and ignoring the others. In the case of the Japanese arts, I think this happens for two reasons: Because the levels of street crime in their society is so low that most Japanese don't train with a view towards self preservation and because in their culture they are naturally exposed to various arts anyway and they're blended within the individual.
When I was first exposed to Japanese Karate in the '60s, there was an unbelievable (By today's standards) amount of throwing and joint manipulation techniques taught. This faded to nothing over the years (Ditto to self defense against blades or blunt weapons).
As pointed out early on in the thread a fight can progress from standing and striking to grappling on the floor and even back to standing. The wise person would do well to at least be grounded in various arts, or to study one that blends striking and grappling skills. Getting back to the original question posed on this thread, IMHO one would do much better getting into Hapkido rather than Aikido because it teaches to strike as well as to grapple (By the way, this from a long time Shotokan student, I have no agenda here!).

[Dave3006]

MAgon, you are right. The Japanese arts, even BJJ, overspecialize. That is why I originally recommended BJJ in addition to his striking skills. Just like a pro golfer, you need several clubs in your bag. Just avoid the ones that don't work even for their intended purpose (Aikido!).

[Skorzeny]

Dave3006:

Uh, thanks for the advice, but I've already been training in BJJ and Shooto (aka Shoot wrestling) for the past 3-4 years. I've also trained in Arnis (Filippino stick and knife fighting), Aikido (Aikikai affiliation), Kodokan Judo and Muay Thai. My TKD and Karate training was mainly when I lived in Asia.

Can you tell that I like "martial arts"?

BTW, I want to make it clear again what my primary philosophy on the goal of modern "martial arts" is - it is to allow you to evade and escape from a bad situation - it is NOT to allow you to fight and "beat" your opponent.

Danger Dave:

I'm NOT confrontational. Why do people keep saying that? I am direct and honest and I do not "massage" my messages to cater to some sensitive person's ego. But I am also quite willing to listen to others and make accomodations when needed.

I can't help that too many folks are so sensitive as to interpret my "challenge" of their IDEAS as necessarily as a challenge on THEM directly and personally. That is not so. Debating ideas should really not be so personal. I don't take it that way - I don't know why some do.

Skorzeny

[Matt Wallis]

Well let's see... There's lots of stuff been said.

First off, just for the record, gotta agree that many TKD bigwigs totally exaggerate (and sometimes downright lie) about the history and origins of the art. Too bad because it really detracts from what is a fun (and yes, still effective for what it aims to do) art. However, it seems that some of you have swung the pendulum to the completely opposite (and just as extreme) side and are claiming that TKD is basically a fabricated art from Japanese styles with no native Korean arts influence at all. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Danger Dave said, "there is no verifiable link between any modern Korean art and any ancient Korean martial art."

To which I say, define "verifiable"! I mean, there are Korean TKD masters that can demonstrate skill and competency in their art who can provide the names of instructors they claim to have learned a traditional Korean art from. Choi is a good example. He claims to have learned a traditional Korean art called Taekyon. Is that verifiable? Well seems to me it would be pretty tough to verify (or disprove for that matter). But how is that any different from when Law Dog says, "Once his training was over with sensei Funakoshi, for whatever reason, Mas Oyama studied gojo-ryu under a man named Sodeiju." Correct me if I'm wrong, but this information was probably told to someone at some point by the people involved. Can it be verified? Well I'm sure one could verify whether or not Oyama ever claimed that, but could we verify whether he actually learned that style from the person he claimed to? It would be tough.

[BTW, on a side note, I did read an article in one of the Karate rags years ago about people that claim to still be practicing Taekyon. Doesn't make it so, but it does provide some evidence that it is a real art. In addition, no Asian MA that I know of have extensive "ancient" written records. Lot's of period texts in the West though, but then they lack much of a living tradition. Go figure.]

Dave also said, "In WWII, the practice of martial arts in Japanese occupied territories was strictly controlled. As a result, a lot of the native martial arts died out, or were at least modified/blended with Japanese arts so as to become unrecognizable as separate martial arts."

I agree. This is known history. Kind of embarassing when Koreans deny this, I'll admit. However it would be unlikely (given other historical examples) that native arts would have _completely_ died out. And it is also likely that native arts influenced and changed some of the Japanese arts. So this would still leave a Korean "flavor" to the arts as well as a connection to Korean arts of the past.

"General Choi was not the "father of TKD" - he just suggested the name."

Woa! Here again is the pendulum being swung too far in the other direction. Yes, I know all about the Kwans. And yes I know that modern TKD was "put together" by many of the kwans joining together. In fact, I've heard that each of the leaders of the kwans contributed a form to the style. These are now the "chon-ji" group of forms used by the ITF. (The *** made new forms after ousting Choi.) But the style developed by Choi is the one that provided the basis for modern TKD. And this is born out by the style itself!

What does Choi claim? He claims that he developed his style from Taekyon and Shotokan. What does TKD look like today? in your own words, "While the kicks are unique, the stances, hand techniques, blocks, the original forms, etc. all come from Shotokan Karate." Hmmmm. Seems to fit the story to me!

Listen, it is always fun to debunk history. I love doing it myself. And the history taught about TKD is ripe for "debunking"! Heh, heh. But I seem to be sensing an "all things Japanese are superior" attitude here. It's just not true, fellas. And I don't see any evidence that would convince me that there is no Korean roots in TKD at all. There's less than what is often claimed, but that's not the same as "none".

Regards,
Matt Wallis

[MAGon]

Matt: I agree with your analysis. Most of the Asian MA histories are word of mouth (Yes there are written records, but A LOT is just word of mouth). There's an undeniable (In spite of the Koreans') Japanese influence to Korean arts. In fact, I had occasion to cross- train for about 3 mos. at a Tang Soo Do Dojang some yrs. ago, and many of their kata were Shotokan kata. In fact, their version of Shotokan's Bassai Dai retained the name Bassai. But a lot of what I saw was foreign to Shotokan, enough to say that Tang Soo Do is it's own art and not merely a copy of Shotokan (In fact, I unashamedly admit to incorporating some of their techniques to my own way of doing things!).
I suspect that their denial of this has more to do with the lingering antipathy from their days as a Japanese colony, as well as the need to recreate a national identity for themselves after the colonial experience. From all accounts I've heard, the Japanese didn't go out of their way to endear themselves to the Koreans. Proof to me that this is so is that there is much less reluctance to admit to the Chinese influence in modern Korean MA than that coming from Japan (Although this, too, was present, again it probably has to do with the need for a national identity along with resentment to the Chinese role in their history, particularly during the Korean War).
The humor in all this is that the Japanese, as well, are guilty of denying the KOREAN influence in THEIR MA. Even during feudal days there was much back and forth between Japan, Korea and China, including warfare. This in itself promoted contact with MA other than the national ones. In those pragmatic days there's no doubt that a samurai who saw a Hwa Rang perform what he thought
to be a particularly useful technique on the battlefield would promptly copy it without a thought to national pride (You can't be a very good nationalist if you're dead!!). In fact, it's whispered that the Atemi techniques in the Japanese grappling arts were in no small measure copied from Korean and Chinese arts.
I'm amused by the claims of being "traditional" voiced by today's superspecialized Asian MA. The fact of the matter was that the TRADITIONAL mentality of warriors back when was to incorporate whatever worked into their training, and to seek out by hook or crook to expand their knowledge of other arts. In Japan this ceased with the advent of the Tokugawas, when the MA went from being pragmatic battlefield arts to something more apt for dueling, ceremony, physical fitness or ancestry worship.
Dave 3006's and Skorzeny's attitude of looking into and mixing various fighting systems is what's really TRADITIONAL, as opposed to the narrow view of many Asian teachers that their own narrow art has the answer to all situations.
That said, though, I wouldn't say a MA lacks credibilty because it's supposed history is bogus. Instead, I'd find it credible if it WORKS! After all, you don't see American handgunners owning up much to the influence of European dueling to their MA, but, boy, does it ever work!!!

[Erich]

All this talk about "knee strikes" got my stupid "I took a little Hapkido in college thirteen years ago" @$$ curious, so I tried one to the back of my chair.

Broke the chair.

[Danger Dave]

Whoa, Matt, I think you read a little too much into what I said!

My point was that the Koreans tend to espouse the idea that all fighting arts came from Korea, and they have cave paintings to prove it! Don't laugh - I've got an old TKD book from the 70's that tries to prove it. Strangely, there was no mention of Chinese or Japanese influence - they'd have you believe that TKD developed in a vacuum, which we all know is untrue of ANY fighting art.

By veifiable link, I wasn't talking about a few techniques here and there that were passed on/exchanged, I'm referring to a complete style. That techniques were passed down from one generation to another is not something I'll dispute - what I'm saying is that there's not any evidence, aside from a few sculptures, manuals & cave drawings, of an ancient Korean martial art that survived intact to the 20th century (I've seen pictures of them & I have yet to identify any indisputable TaeKwonDo techniques in any of them). What did survive was altered by exposure to Chinese & Japanese styles to the point where they were no longer "native Korean" styles. Yes, there are - and always have been - differences between the Korean & Japanese martial arts, just like there are differences between American and Mexican boxers. But, at the root of it all, their basic techniques came from the same place.

As far as Choi goes, I still think you're giving him too much credit. I expect the father of a style to be one singular person to whom all future students can trace their lineage - like aikido to Ueshiba, Judo to Kano, etc. TaeKwonDo can't trace their lineage like that, because it's not a singular school/style of fighting; it's the product of a coalition of several schools that all developed separately (partly because they had to train in secrecy during the Japanese occupation). Choi was the founder of Moo Duk Kwan - they can certainly trace their lineage to him (at least the real MooDuk Kwan'ers can - I've seen a quite a few groups that claimed to be what they're not). What about Chang Moo Kwan, Ji Do Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, etc., etc? They didn't study under Choi. The other Kwans did not learn their TaeKwonDo from him, they just agreed to the name he suggested. It's a good name, I think, but it's important to remember that there is not one Tae Kwon Do - it's a conglomeration of different schools/styles, all of which were based on some form of Japanese karate, which were in turn based on Okinawan karate, which was probably based on Chinese kung fu, which was probably based on some Indian fighting styles....

Like I said, I was taught the Shotokan forms - the Pyongs, Bassai, Chulgi, etc. Those didn't come from Choi! Not all the schools liked the new forms (Chon-Ji, TaeGuek or Palgwe).

I never said the Korean arts aren't arts in their own right, I just think they should give credit where credit is due. I certainly don't think Japanese styles are inherently superior. Don't forget, I'm a Korean stylist myself!

[Spectre]

Whether something works is not the same as having a verifiable history. As well, if I say I practice "Lizard WuShu" does that give some basis to Lizard WuShu? No, it's just a claim.

There is some disagreement about the history of the arts that I study. I know what I do works, so I don't concern myself overmuch about it.

[Skorzeny]

Danger Dave:

This time, I am FORCED to agree with you! :)

In any case, I do not accept the notion that "martial arts" history has to be largely oral.

Certainly there are plenty of WRITTEN records that demonstrate lineage. For example, Ueshiba Moriehei (founder of Aikido) claims to have studied under Takeda Sokaku (a great teacher of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu). Guess what? There is a written record and certificate of Ueshiba's training with Takeda. "Traditional" martial artists were generally VERY fastidious about keeping records of who learned what from whom and when, because lineage was of extreme importance. This is true of Japanese AND Chinese systems.

On the other hand, there is NO written record of the "founder" of Hapkido ever training with Takeda, contrary to the claims by Hapkido practitioners. Of course, the techniques are very similar and there probably was some transmission, but the claim of DIRECT teaching is unfounded.

In addition, those of you who claim that these outlandish claims by Korean stylists "can't be disproven either" should remember that those who make positive claims in the first place have the burden of proving their claims.

I'm simply tired of these "well, I learned from the Japanese, but really I learned the real stuff from the Korean monks on the mountains, which was so so secret that there is no written record" type claims.

My favorite one, of course, is Hwa Rang Do. Its practitioners claim that this is THE style of personal combat practiced by the Hwa Rang (flower youth) of the Shilla Dynasty. This notion is so incredulously laughable that I won't even explain why...

BTW, the Korean antipathy to all things Japanese is well taken and well understood. The Japanese did unspeakable things to the Koreans (and other Asians they subjugated) and it is completely understandable why Koreans minimize that influence.

HOWEVER, Korea is today a prosperous, industralized and educated country. The Koreans ought to really feel more confident about themselves and acknowledge influences of other nations on them.

Skorzeny

[Danger Dave]

Skorzeny,
I've encountered several schools that teach "dead" arts (Kong Soo Do comes to mind; HwaRangDo is another - I don't think there's enough paper to write a list of all the Chines styles). When you start asking them where they trained, where their instructors trained, etc., their claims invariably fall apart. Usually there's someone who got a blue belt under someone in a legitimate school, then decided to buy a black belt & open their own school to make a few bucks...

Sorry, that's just what I've seen.

And I agree with you about the oral history. There's just too big of a gap between SooBak, TaeKyon, etc. to claim any real connection. The records of the arts certainly exist, but there's no verifiable connection to today's Korean arts. Sure, there might be a piece of it here & there in this technique or that, but try to prove it. Especially given the location of Korea - there's a fair amount of Chinese kung fu influence in some TKD kwans, too. I've also heard the plausible theory that TKD kicks were most likely adapted & then modified from White Crane Kung Fu... But, once again, it can't be proven.

[ATeaM]

Jesus, when is this post coming out in print ? From the looks of it you would think you guys are collaborating on a thesis.

[LASur5r]

Just came back from some of the parts that you guys are talking about. (Cheng Zhou Province...Where one of the Shaolin Temples is located....two others were burned down.), Beijing, and Tokyo...went on a trek to see other styles in their supposed origins.

Just a little something, when the emperor felt that the Shaolin monks was a threat to him, he sent his troops to the temple to destroy the temple, kill the monks, etc., etc.. You know, standard Chinese way of denying ties to the origins.

The Shaolin kept extensive records of their attendees...written records (scrolls), but because the army burned all records, the country folk would learn the stories of the "heroes of Shaolin" and pass on the stories word of mouth.

Just as the stories were changed to fit the "storyteller" so were many of the martial art styles.

For example....many of you have been in the martial arts for at least 20 years...how many of you have visited the old school or followed up on fellow students who are now teaching...perhaps at their own school now.

Please bear with me now....There was a Kenpo school that I studied at which had 6 black belts in the dojo. Two were short and a little on the heavy side (5'3" tall, about 165 lbs.)the other four were between 5 ft.6 in. and 5 ft. 11 kinches. You can bet your bottom dollar that each school looked different in what was emphasized as to what techniques suited their likes , dislikes, and their physical attributes. Some techniques were even discarded and new ones"invented by the practitioner. or "borrowed"......and that's the long and short of many of the martial art styles that you guys are talking about.

[LASur5r]

You guys are entitled to your opinion about aikido, but there are a lot of guys in the Hawaii Police Department who use aikido and the BG's are glad of it because they get taken down with wrist locks and gentle takedowns instead of a billie club upside the head or a bullet.

An Leo friend in Hawaii was working UC with a partner in some of the local bars, seems like there was a two man team working the tourists, but they were getting rougher and rougher so HPD had to put a stop to it.
One night they ran into a knifing in the parking lot of one of the bars and as my friend responded to stop the attack, the knife man turned on my friend. He got raked across the lower abdomen and across one of the forearms, but he ended up breaking both the BG's wrists. Guy was trying the borderline shift.

Funny thing of it was, the two man team assaults died down for over a year or two...then started up again but on another island.

Anyway, was a bunch of those LEO's taking aikido and they've done pretty good so far. Can't be all bad.