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View Full Version : Bbl porting, and a few other matters......


Dave McC
August 6, 2001, 07:20 AM
Spent a very hot Sunday afternoon at the trap range, had fun, but more of that later....

I was on Post #1 for my second round, shooting Frankenstein, my 21" bbled parts 870. I had obtained a trap style Monte Carlo stock for it and wanted to test it out. The first bird exploded, and I waited my turn for the second shot. It took a while coming. The guy on Post #5 was not known to me, like most small league shoots most everyone knows everyone by sight. This was a big, friendly looking guy, 30 something, with a camoed Mossy pump. His first shot was followed by the range master yelling, "Stop the line"!

The range master went over to him and asked just what shells he was shooting. The reply was inaudible to me, but the RM looked skeptical. The #5 shooter dug out a shell and handed it to the RM. He scrutinized the shell, handed it back and returned to his high chair. The shooting went on.

FYI, trap loads of 1 1/8 oz, 3 dram, or less are required here.

As the posts rotated, the guy with the Mossy naturally took over the #1 post when I moved to #2. His first shot was felt by me as a blast of hot air and a louder report than I was getting from my own gun. Yup, that 835 was ported.....

Porting is one of the more controversial techniques for reducing recoil, even more than overboring. A series of holes are made in a predetermined pattern someplace close to the further end of the bbl by EDM or similiar methods, and the proponents claim faster repeat shots and less kick.

On paper,they're correct, but....

It would take, IMO, a sensitive shooter to tell the difference in felt recoil with trap loads. Barnburner turkey loads, maybe.

But porting has been pimped to the clay game folks as a panacea for kick and getting that second shot on a pair off fast.In combination with a mild overbore, a long forcing cone,etc, porting may indeed reduce kick to the point where it's noticably less to Joe Clays.But, the increment of reduction by porting alone might not be noted by the most sensitive of folks.

And there's no Tablet of Stone which says that an overbored bbl with a long cone HAS to have ports burned into the muzzle end for the other mods to work.

And, like others have noted, sometimes "Ejecta" comes out of those ports and stings someone. It's happened to me, which is why I favor blinders on the line. Trapshooters.com had a horror story recently about a trapshooter getting a tiny piece of something in his eye and darn near losing same.

As for ported chokes, same deal only worse. By the time the charge has reached that far, the shotgun is already recoiling. They do give a nice place to put the can opener from your Swiss Army knife to use as a choke tube wrench,tho.

Back to this instance....

After the line was over, I spoke to the RM. I asked if that Mossy was louder than my short little "Alleysweeper". His response,"H*ll, yes"!

Now, people I've shot geese with have commented on Frank's blast, so this query was to establish a scale of sorts.The RM also commented that other ported bbls seemed pretty loud, if not quite that loud.

In between rounds, the Mossy owner and I conversed. A nice guy, he got to wondering how his 835 Turkey gun would do, and had brought it to the range for the halibut. He'd hit most of the targets, I didn't ask him about his score.

I also handled his 835. In weight,it seemed to be in between Frank's 7 lbs 4 oz and the TB's 8 lbs 4 oz, balancing nicely between the hands. It rattled when shaken, which seems endemic to Mossies. By and large,IMO, a decent shotgun suitable for large and small birds as is. The owner did say that 1 7/8 oz turkey nukes were hard kickers, even with the overbore and ports.Surprise, surprise(G)....

While waiting for the next line, I secured permission from the RM and the owner, and shot one of my 1 oz, 3 dram trap reloads, just to see how they compared. I busted the bird, tho those three Tru Glo sights were a distraction. Can't tell you about the kick, because I didn't note any. The RM said the blast was the same as the Walmart Special Fed loads the owner was using.

Conclusion:

Unless a shooter is extremely sensitive to recoil and MUST, for some unknown reason, use heavy loads in high volume shooting,porting will not pay off much.For the obsessed competition freak,for whom 99/100 is utter failure, maybe. Also, ports are another place for grunge buildup and rust to start.

Better kick reduction can be had by adding a few oz to the gun weight, cutting the speed and weight of the load, or the other methods we've discussed at length here.

An aside....

The M/C stock on Frank seems to be working. The one round I shot from both pre mounted and low gun had a score of 21/25, not bad for a man 3 days away from cataract surgery. A couple of the misses, I just shot over, Frank's wicked fast and moves quicker than the TB.

Once I get back to shooting in a month or so, I may try Frank at doubles,since I take my second birds way out. The speed may make up for having to pump.

Hope this helps....

BigG
August 6, 2001, 08:16 AM
Thanks for a nice analysis, Dave. I noted many of the 'razzis at my gun club have swiss-cheesed tubes. Think it's more of a fad than anything else.

Do you have any experience with the Cutts Compensator? It's an old device that kinda looks like a potato on the end of the bbl and the choke tube follows it. Lots of old Browning A-5s had em.

MiniZ
August 6, 2001, 09:37 AM
Good post Dave! It does seem that porting is "the rage" now.

On a side note, would you know where I could find(or at least look for) a Monte Carlo stock for an 1100?

Zane

Dave McC
August 6, 2001, 11:44 AM
Agreed on fads, folks, thanks for the contributions.

Big G, no Cutts, tho the Model 11 Remington(A-5 clone) I had for a while had 23" of bbl topped with a Polychoke and Compensator. Recoil with field loads was on the mild side, but we're talking an 8 lb + shotgun here.Side blast raised a lot of dust in dry cornfields. I never did shoot it well, and another family member has it now. He shoots it OK.

If I had a good shotgun with a Cutts or Polychoke, I'd live with it.

Zane, check the BB at your local range. Right now at one range I attend, fancy wood for a Berreta is advertised on the BB even as we speak. I got this one from a fellow member of the Geezer Squad, and I'll probably get the fore end to match.

One other possibility that I was toying with....

Wenig makes great gunstocks, and they offer a DYI kit, an unfinished blank inlet into a shop gun and ready to finish. In plain walnut, they run $55. Add a good pad, and just remove wood until it fits and looks good. Their New American style stock has an M/C, and good dimensions. Try wenig.com...

Frankenstein gets a facelift, and I get a well fitting stock, w/o major surgery.Life is good(G)...

PJR
August 6, 2001, 03:50 PM
I've owned two guns with porting -- a Browning BT99 Plus (long gone) and a 20 gauge Citori XS that I still own.

Whether porting does anything more than make loud noise is a point of conjecture. From my standpoint I don't believe it makes much difference and while I won't turn my nose up at a ported gun I certainly wouldn't spend extra $$$ having it done. The only mod that I've any faith in is extended forcing cones. It does seem to help on patterns and recoil.

And BTW if you think porting makes a shotgun loud you should stand next to a rifle shooter with a ported barrel. A pal of mine has a custom .257 Weatherby with a muzzle brake and it makes the earth shake.

Paul

Dave McC
August 6, 2001, 07:03 PM
Thanks, Paul. FYI,last fall I benched next to a guy with a ported 7mm Mag, a worked over 700 that weighed not much more than 8 lbs, field ready. Blast was impressive, and I scheduled my shots so I was off the bench and to the rear when he squeezed off the trigger. He shot well, but I'd wager he left the line with a headache.

My brother mentioned that the 300 Win mag he uses on elk is ported, and raises much dust and the occasional plant.

Agreed on long cones, I've not heard of ANY complaints for this inexpensive and useful mod....

Bullmoose
August 7, 2001, 12:59 AM
Tactical shooters want fast followup shots and most agree that the porting does reduce the muzzle rise. Which agrees with my testing homemade breaks on a t/c a few years back: the gun came straight back w/o much rise at all, but after a box or two of hot loads the hand and wrist felt about the same as the unported gun.
A very respected gunsmith Hans Vang in Goleta, Ca mainly works on Mossbergs and Remingtons putting on his VCS (Vang Comp System) mods on the bbls and claims about 15% reduction in perceived recoil. He developed his own pattern for the ports using some formula(?). Back bore, lengthened forcing cone and porting is his 'system'. A lot of police depts use his bbls and claim that it extends the useful range for 00 quite a bit. I took a class from Top Gun in San Bernardino County over the week end and several of the shooters had the bbls and seemed to get better patterns. I wore my electronic ear muffs and wasn't aware of any extra noise or blast when they were next to me. I was using my cyl bbl retired CHP gun. The back boring probably gives the Vang bbl a modified choke.
Ditto the comments on rifles. A few yeatrs back the shooter at the next bemnch was blasting me so badly with hot gases that I timed my shooting to avoid him. I wondered what kind of monster magnum he was using, it turned out to be a 270 Winchester. Why he needed a break on it was beyond me.. It was interesting to me that the instructor was lauding the Vang System and then after patterning our guns with 00 indicated that his rule is to slug up after 12 yards. Makes the whole process rather mute even if it does give you an acceptable pattern at longer distances.

Dave McC
August 7, 2001, 06:42 AM
Vang's praises have been sung here repeatedly, Moose. Little if any downside, according to those who've had this done. What I HAVEN'T heard is any comparison between a Vang job w/ porting and one w/o. An overbore and a long cone do a fairtomiddlin' job reducing felt recoil by themselves.

Also, short bbled shotguns used in low light scenarios with most ammo give the term "Muzzle Flash" new depths of meaning, even without ports.

Wonder if those hotshots ever did a low light scenario with their ported toys.

S'funny, I've no claim to greatness as a shotgunner, but my HD 870 and myself can get off 5 shots, with good hits, in around 4 seconds. A younger, faster shotgunner could do better than that with a modicum of practice. Instead of cutting holes in bbls, maybe the hotshots should put their money into ammo and range fees, working on improving the human part of the equation...

Neither technology nor a checkbook can substitute satisfactorily for expertise...

BigG
August 7, 2001, 07:43 AM
Instead of cutting holes in bbls, maybe the hotshots should put their money into ammo and range fees, working on improving the human part of the equation...

Neither technology nor a checkbook can substitute satisfactorily for expertise...

Dave about the foregoing: It'll never work - it makes too much sense!:p

Seriously, now, wouldn't an overbore cause the wad/shot to rattle around in the bore somewhat? It seems like it would allow a lot of blowby to this country boy...

PJR
August 7, 2001, 07:56 AM
BigG

Modern plastic wads fill in to the overbore with little or no problem. In some cases, 12 gauge guns have been overbored to the point where the barrels are, in fact, 10 gauge.

My 12s range from .723 to .750 and I've never had a blowby occur. I've seen it happen with other guns when cheaper wads/ammo are used and sometimes in very cold weather when the wads are brittle.

Paul

JB in SC
August 7, 2001, 08:44 AM
On shotguns, I'm not sure how much sense it (porting) makes. Sure is harder to clean. As far as backboring, I'm sure there's a law of diminishing returns. But paper shells sure do seal backbored guns well. Lengthening the forcing cone is another matter, done properly, it's an asset.

JNewell
August 7, 2001, 08:33 PM
Dave, I have had some spectator and some owner/shooter experience with porting and muzzle brakes. I have a Marlin Guide Gun that just happens to be ported, and a Vang barrel that was bought that way on purpose. I don't think porting does much to reduce recoil with normal-ish loads, though if it were designed properly with really heavily recoiling loads (.50 Browning) it could definitely make a difference (those muzzle brakes on the Barretts, for example).

I do think they often reduce muzzle rise, however, which can help with faster shots and probably gets filtered into the brain as a component of perceived recoil.

In _rifles_ in low and no light firing, with short barrels, the only difference in observed muzzle flash is where it's going -- large elliptical balloons going in all directions vs dragon's breath going mostly sideways. They just seem to redirect flash -- think of that picture of the ported Glock in the gunzine ads -- yeow! If you want low flash, the best approach is probably to change loads, not change the firearm.

They are uncommonly punishing to those nearby, but not to the shooter, as you observed. I used to shoot a couple of times a year in an old Springfield Armory indoor range that was attached to the S&W Academy -- only about 20 ft wide, and the concussion, even from a 5.56x45, would loosen your (my) fillings. The Guide Gun will make you think that it's going to raise the roof on a covered line, which is really pointless. It would be better to send all that blast downrange, even in the field, but you know how it goes...I was smitten and didn't do what I probably should have, which was to buy an older 1895S and have it bobbed. Oh well!

DML
August 8, 2001, 02:51 AM
Dave McC:

Since I can't e-mail directly to you, I'll post this here.

A while back someone offered to loan you a Vang Comped barrel to try. Did you ever get to try that barrel? If not, I am making the same offer. I have an extra 18" 870 barrel with a bead sight. It has the full Vang Comp System with ports.

I find it awfully hard to take people seriously when they have not actually tried what they are talking about.

Dave McC
August 8, 2001, 06:04 PM
Thanks, Big G. Too much sense is a good way to put it.

JB, a forcing cone, done properly, is an asset indeed. Properly includes a mirror polish, unless one enjoys scraping plastic stuff off steel.And, Concentricity is crucial.

J, my very first( I think, it might have been a #5 Jungle Carbine) centerfire rifle was a carbine length Rolling Block in 45-70. Didn't shoot it much, traded it off PDQ. Later I had an 1895 Marlin with the usual 24" bbl in 45-70. I was full grown by then and still found the kick punishing.

Porting makes more sense(tho not necessarily a lot of sense) on rifles like that used as stopping rifles. On shotguns, with their lower velocities, heavier payloads, different missions,it becomes an option with doubtful gains and of high cost.

And, long ago, in Southeast Asia, I was damn glad of the muzzle brake on a certain M-14.

DML, SO you know....

I limit access to my E mail for some rather obvious reasons. I dislike hate mail, and I've gotten plenty from Animal Rights Activists, Anti Gun Rights idiots,Ex convicts, Militant Vegans, AND some folks who like Swastikas and /or burning crosses a lot more than they like Jews, Blacks,or anyone else outside their narrow, hatefilled little circle of bigots. Since you do not seem like any of the above, I'll E you so you'll have mine.

And thanks for your generous offer, but....

First, since I do not have a Vang bbl w/o ports, we cannot compare apples to apples. Porting is just part of the package, and I've neither an 18" bbl w/overbore and long cone, nor any wish to have one right now.

Second, I dislike having responsibility for other folks' property, especially gun stuff. I do have possession of a friend's firearms now, but it's short term, and the man's practically family. Still leave me nervous.

Third, just what are you looking for here? I've never said anything bad about Vang or his work, folks I know who know him say he's a great guy. And his work is high class, by any standard.

All I'm saying is,IMO, porting should be very low on the priority list, if at all. And, if I didn't pass this on to folks, they might not get the most value for their money. And unlike proper stock fit, long forcing cones, peep sights and the other stuff I advocate here and elsewhere, ther is an obvious downside to porting.

But, if someone is absolutely deadly with their shotgun of choice,practices frequently and well, and is to the point where an equipment upgrade is the only thing that will improve scores or increase threat levels to opponents, then sure, get the bells and whistles if you want to.

It's a shame that we live on opposite coasts, it would be nice to get together and shoot a few, comparing and contrasting the bbls we have and having a little fun also.

WhiteFox
August 9, 2001, 10:16 AM
Folks, a barrel should only have 2 holes, period.
What irks me is that a number of really nice
guns cannot be obtained *without* the porting.
A couple examples are the Browning Ultra XS and
the Franchi Sporting model. Good point about the
possibility of spraying material sideways on the
line. I'll be real careful next time I stand
next to a guy who is shooting ported. Thanks!
-WhiteFox

K80Geoff
August 9, 2001, 04:39 PM
IMHO porting is just another gimmick foisted upon shooters to make them spend money. Better to invest in a good gunfitting and some lessons.
Ported shotguns are very loud. Some trapshooting leagues do not allow ported guns on the line as they are distracting to other shooters.

They are a PITA to clean.


Geoff Ross

Kingcreek
August 9, 2001, 08:41 PM
2 weeks ago the range master's daughter got stung at the skeet range. She was well back and got hit in the neck or face (I don't recall which) and caught a perfectly sheared 1/2 of a #8 shot in her lap from a participants ported skeetgun. No significant injury, luckily. Posterchild for eye protection?
Personally, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. But my basic, unenlightened opinion is that it is an expensive solution to a non-existant problem. I don't see a need for ports in my pistols, my rifles, and certainly not my shotguns. And why anybody would want a ported barrel on a hunting rifle is completely beyond me. I don't remember a bit of recoil when I last shot big 4 legged game with my .300mag.

Oleg Volk
August 13, 2001, 07:36 PM
How do muzzle brakes function on long recoil autoloaders like Remington 11? Won't they impede the reloading process?

Dave McC
August 13, 2001, 08:24 PM
Oleg, my experience's limited to that one M-11, but I recall few probs. Lightest load used was probably 1 1/8 oz, 3 dram trap loads, my ammo of choice for dove.

It wasn't a great slug gun, but I did fire it with some, maybe the brake did help on recoil of that magnitude.

Romulus
August 13, 2001, 08:41 PM
Well I'm not a hulk, at 5-10 200some lbs. I used to shoot more frequently when I was young and pretty, at same height, 190 lbs. I never found the recoil of the model 11 (actually a savage 755, same gun) to be nasty. Two years ago, already portlier, I shot a bona fide model 11 - again, actually a sweet feeling gun. My 870 and my M87 kick far more. And given the kick of the 870, a friend's Pro-ported 870 I expected to be mild, but there it was kicking again like a mule...

If porting attenuates the kick I can't tell...

Robe
August 15, 2001, 11:21 PM
DML- I think it was very generous of you to offer Dave your Vang barrel. I knew he would not try it. In all of Dave's 3000+ posts he has been very consistent. The basic 870 is the ONLY shotgun...ever... anyone needs for anything. If anyone ever says anything negative about an 870, the solution is...add a little weight... work on your technique...it's like sex-if it hurts you're doing it wrong.
Dave Mc- you really should open up and consider the new stuff available today. At least try it. Then you could speak from experience when you give people your advice about things. All we ever see is a post about how/why whatever you've got is all anyone would ever need and nobdy need any of the new fads/gadgets out these days.
I challenge you to make one new post about some gun/product OTHER than an 870 or related to an 870....and without mentioning an 870.

HarryB
August 15, 2001, 11:48 PM
:rolleyes:

Robe, I think you need to go back and reread those 3000+ posts of Dave's...

He has praise (justly so) for the 870 design due to its versatility, longevity, and ergonomics. I do not recall any bashing of a person's choice of a non 870. In fact, he recommends several times that any reliable 12 or 20 bore shotgun with at least a capacity of 2 will suffice in most HD situations.

Good form and practice will usually win the day over accessorizing and custom work. It's the man[person], not the machine.

Not trying to fight your battles Dave, but I felt Robe's post was out of line. I for one welcome your advice and tales of experience and find it admirable that you take the time to share on this board.

DML
August 16, 2001, 12:35 AM
Robe:

I have no bone to pick with Dave McC. He has a lot of practical experience and we agree on a lot of things. I offered to loan
him a barrel because I remembered that someone else made the offer and I never saw a response or any results of a test of the Vang Comp System by Dave. We discussed this by e-mail and Dave said that he has shot some 870s with the Vang Comp System. I'll let him describe what he found if he chooses to.

Gunsmiths depend mostly on the wants and not the needs of their customers. I see some of the most rediculous modifications to various firearms that sell pretty well. That's the way it is. If you can get a gun writer to write something good about your product, people will buy it until they find out that it's junk. Vang Comp has had many respected writers test the product with very favorable results. Does your average Joe need the Vang Comp System on their home defense shotgun? No, but that doesn't stop them from buying it. The average Joe doesn't need a .458 Winchester magnum either, but they buy it anyway.

The Vang Comp System works. Ghostring sights work. Tactical slings work. Whether the expurts on this forum agree with that or not does not change that fact.

Dave McC
August 16, 2001, 08:37 AM
Robe, I get the impression your conflict with me has more to do with Alpha Male headbutting than the merits of my ideas and opinions.

At no time have I claimed the 870's are the only way to go.

As best as I can recall, the worst things I've said about either the Mossies or the newer Winchesters is that the 500s rattle when shaken and the 1200 Winchesters didn't work well when neglected and dirty in an institutional setting. I've also stated that neither of those would, IMO,
hold up as long under heavy use than the 870, but it was unlikely that either could be worn out by one generation of shooter. I've also stated repeatedly that I'd consider myself well armed with either.

So where's this 870 chauvinism you claim I have?

And, I've no agenda. I'm not selling books, videos, or accessories. I've no seminars, no Dave McC signature model Loudenboomer SP Mags. I hardly even instruct any more and then it's for free.

All I'm getting out of this is the warm fuzzies for helping folks out. Lots of folks took the time to get me where I am,and I like to pay it forward.

And I've nothing to prove, either to the BB folks or myself.

And as for experience with Vang....

Late in the 80s or very early in the 90s, we had been attending HRT training,including a lot of range stuff. One of my subordinates had bragged on me and a lunchtime match was arranged between me and a very good shooter from the Feds, agency unknown. He had the first Vang I ever saw, and we squared off.

COF was 8 staggered plates, distanced from 8-10 yards to 18-20. Course was timed, and we started from low gun, loaded chamber,full mag,safety on. I won the first heat with my HD 870, which had followed me there. No overbore, no ports,and our ammo was either Winchester or Federal generic duty 00. I won the first heat, shooting six and speedloading two, one at a time, from a belt pouch. I forget the time, but it was pretty fast.

Some discussion ensued between the backers, and the COF was halved to 4 shots. I did OK, but noted the Fed was good, certain and cool. He won that heat, and we repeated the COF again. I won this one by the slimmest of margins. The betters paid off or collected and the Fed and I relaxed and talked guns. He was a good sort, and showed me his Vanged 870,otherwise set up quite like my HD tool. IIRC, it had a butt cuff and 20" bbl vs my 18" one. This was pre Side Saddle, I think. He extolled the virtues of same,and I asked if I could try it out. So, 4 plates were set up again, and I tried out his weapon.

It worked fine, but I could not detect any difference in kick or control.I even shot one round from it and one from mine to see if I could feel any difference. The Fed said stated he had been timed on numerous occasions before and after Vanging, his times were better after but he did not feel much difference. He did say slug shooting had gone to heck post Vang, but he wasn't really concerned about that.

Note: I've shot a round or two from other Vanged shotguns, including a 500, and still couldn't feel any change. The owner of the 500 said slug accuracy improved after Vang worked his magic. Go figure....

A coupla things, since we're on this....

First, folks like myself and this Fed might be the last ones to benefit from Vang. We're used to the handling, have shot plenty, and have our equipment and form down.My guess is we're way more recoil tolerant than average. The other big advantage claimed for Vang is better patterns. No argument there, but for stuff occurring at 1 foot to 25 yard range, how good does the pattern have to be?

The person that might benefit most from all this porting, boring and lengthening would be an intermediate shooter, who has some knowledge of proper form and so on, but needs to crank out some shooting to get better. This would take the discomfort out of the process, and enable that shooter to improve faster. A beginner would benefit also from the lessened kick, but this would be case to case here,my hunches tell me.

Second, any modification or addon is an addendum to training and practice, not a substitute.I may get tiresome about this, but I've run across too many folks that either get something because it's touted in a magazine, or their buddy has one, or because they believe making it easier to hit something eliminates the need for all that practice. How many folks do you know that spent more last year on mods and addons than range fees and ammo? We all know some, and some of us need a look at the mirror.


I note that the changes made in a Vang makeover parallel those done to the clay game shotguns, where serious competitors spend thousands on overbores, long cones, custom chokes and porting. In large part, these folks are hardnosed about their equipment. If most of them shoot with the mods, it's because they shoot better with them, discounting fashion and fad.In sports where 200 round shootoffs are followed by more shootoffs, a small improvement may be worthwhile, but I've said that already.

And, Robe, the ball's in your court....

Dave McC
October 11, 2001, 07:29 AM
Bringing this back up for Ken....

C.R.Sam
October 11, 2001, 10:57 AM
Dave: As usual you start a thread with good information and that seemed to begat even more good information.

Till I got to the bottom, I was thinkin about adding the experience/expertise factor. Your last post covered that nicely.

Thanks, Sam

Dave McC
October 11, 2001, 01:44 PM
Thank you, Sam. It's nice to know someone's appreciating all that typing(G). I hesitated to bring it up again because of the scrimony, but someone needed this and I didn't want to type it all out again.

These two fingers wear out fast....

9mmMike
October 11, 2001, 02:36 PM
Pardon me for butting in Dave but........
Rant on:
Robe,
You are wrong.
Before I bought my 870, I poured over the TFL archives. I'll admit that it was largely due to Dave's posts that I bought my 870 Express. I must have read nearly all of Dave's posts and I can not recall any negative comments regarding non-870's.
Then I emailed him and he gave me more good advice. What did he get for that? My thanks.
As far as your "challenge" goes, it has got to be one of the most moronic things that I've seen written in this forum.
I dare say that Dave could (and should) be considered an 870 expert. Why in heaven's name would I wish to hear him talk about something with which he has little experience?
Dave consistantly reports what works for him. I'd like to see more folks report what they know rather than what they've heard the "expert" (easily bought) magazine writers say.
I do not mind someone quoting what they've read as long as they admit that it is exactly that, hear-say.
As Dave explained, he does not have any skin in the game. He is not trying to sell anything. In fact, he often suggests buying an older, better quality, 870 so I doubt very much that Remington is sending him any checks!
What he does do is share his vast experience and I (and I'm not alone here) appreciate it very much.
He saved me a few bucks I can tell you. I spoke to Vang and I've no doubt that they are quite good at what they do but $320.00 for a barrel on a $200.00 shotgun better shoot for me and never miss. I paid $40.00 to a local shop for a forcing cone and I am quite happy with that. I'll spend the rest on ammo. Sound familiar? ;)
If you are upset because we value his opinion, too bad.
Rant off,
Mike

SpazzTrap
October 12, 2001, 12:55 AM
I have seen porting being lauded over by Sporting Clays shooters moreso than Trap shooters, although I do see more and more ported barrels now on expensive Trap guns. I recently got to shoot my friends Seminole modified Beretta 391 Gold Sporting that had a 30" bbl with porting and lengthened forcing cones. I shot a round of Trap with it, but he primarily bought it for SCs. It was a smooth (and very flat) shooter with 1 1/8 oz loads. I have the 391 Trap model with 32" bbl, and his kicked slightly less, which doesn't matter too much to me, because even the 391 field models are light kickers IMO. The only problem I have seen with the ported barrels is that they have a tendancy to barf on light loads (7/8 and 1 oz). This week we were shooting doubles and a few rounds of Continentals, and we were both using one of our favorite closet "throw away" loads, the Win Superspeed 7/8 oz 7 1/2s. His clean gun failed to cycle several times, while mine kept churning them out. It's something to think about, but for someone who is getting ports because of Turkey busting 12 lb loads, it wont be an issue.

As far as Dave goes...he has been instrumental in my knowledge of shotguns. His advice led me to get my first SG, a trusty 870, because you never outgrow it. When I realized I needed a more customized fit to begin shooting "serious" trap, I decided on another gun for a multitude of reasons, but Dave was never "pushy" about any 870 "agenda". I recall his expertice being expounded on many brands of SGs I have inquired about, including the Beretta Urikas.

Soon though, I fear I will end up on some test in the "analogy" section:

DaveMcC is to Rem 870s

as

Spazz is to Beretta 391s

:D

Dave McC
October 12, 2001, 05:43 AM
Thanks guys, but check the dates. I brought this back up for Ken, who had some queries about porting. Robe, no doubt, has moved on to where his talents are better appreciated.

For the record....

If I know something, I'll mention it. If it's hearsay, or plagiarized from the Technoid, etc, I'll mention that also.

If I don't know something, I pretty much leave it alone. Don't ask me about tactical slings, lights, exotic ammo, Best guns, or the best choke/load combo for Cassowaries,Capercallies or Basilisks.

And I'm certainly no gunsmith, tho I've contributed to the welfare of many.

What I know, I'll share gladly.

Correia
October 12, 2001, 09:28 AM
Personally for Basillisks I stick to #4. They aren't as tough as they look. ;)