Australian Disarm Technique

[cbjessee@NH]

When the BG has a gun tucked in tight to the ribcage, in a decent retention hold, a disarm is pretty hard. I hear there is something that the Australians have developed that's starting to go around the US. Any clues?

BRET

[Navy joe]

Yeah, they turn the Gov. loose and demand to inspect the weapon for proper registration. At this point it is taken completing the disarm. Seriously I think the only good solution is shoot'em til disarm and dat arm don't work anymore. :)

[Spectre]

CB,

Welcome to TFL! Good luck on a disarm from that position. One only has a chance of effecting a disarm if you can touch the firearm; from what you're describing, the assailant's apparently out of reach.

If you cannot sucker him in closer, do not make a play for his weapon, unless you know you're going to be shot, regardless. Then, you have nothing to lose, right?

Remember, the threat is the MAN with the gun, not the gun. If you can find a way to take the MAN out of the equation, the gun will not hurt you.

[cbjessee@NH]

Oh yeah, all Australians are disarmed - I forgot.

A good defensive folding knife instructor teaching a mixed LEO/non-LEO group noted, after doing the standard disarms for close-in threats with extended weapons, that the Aussies had evolved a technique and passed to the US during the Olympics. He said he'd been asked to pass it on only to LEOs, and so chose not to teach it that day.

Understandably, it hard to keep LEO methods aways from BGs if you give techniques away to anyone. Those prison films show the BGs have a lot more time to think of new ways to counter LEO methods than LEOs have to think of new ones. The stuff I learned 10 years ago is great for anyone but a criminal.

BRET

[David Scott]

From The Australian Manual Of Close Quarters Combat by Michael J. Dundee (Bludger & Chunder, Melbourne 1993):



To disarm an assailant at contact distance, you must take advantage of the unique resources of Australian culture:

1. Scream "G'DAY MATE!!! in his ear, to disorient him.

2. Let loose a cloud of beer-powered flatulence that will double him over. To be able to do this, you'll have to suck down a steady three cans of Foster's an hour, all day, but hey, no worries, eh, mate?

3. The assailant is now bent over, clutching his ears and retching. You can now reach into his waistband at the back, give him an enormous wedgie, and throw in a handful of hot shrimp from the barbie. REALLY hot! When you let the elastic go, the shrimp will be propelled right "down under" his "meat and two veg". (Editors' note: Some of the more tangy barbecue sauces will cause permanent sterility.)

4. As the bloke's family jewels start to roast, he'll straighten up. Since he will still be clutching his middle, you need only to yell to the nearest Australian Rules Football team, "Hoy, lads! That bloke's got the bleedin' ball!" Stand back and enjoy the carnage.

5. When the football team moves on, you can go through the assailant's pockets for loose change, and dance on his mangled, lifeless body while singing "Waltzing Matilda".

6. Write down everything that happened and sell it to an American movie company as a "script concept."

[Oink]

Foster's is OUT, it must now be VB (Victorian Bitters). Nobody here drinks Fosters, it's no longer an Aussie beer, what you get in USA is made in Canada.....YUK!:barf:

[cbjessee@NH]

Another thread gone to hell ... but I loved it anyway.

BRET

[Spectre]

If the BG has a firearm (and you do not), you have to force them to close, unless you have enough distance to run with a good chance of not being hit.

[KSFreeman]

Australian disarm: turn loose a pack of dingos.

Hoosier disarm: in that position, shoot him until weapon drops while you are moving to cover.

My Foster's in made in Kanada? YIKES!!!

[Glamdring]

I didn't know there were any "good" retention holds. AFAIK "retention" holds just keep gun close to the body so that one has to get closer to reach it.

If the gun is held very close to the body alongside the rib cage simply hitting/cuffing the gun with an outside-in blow should work fairly well. Since the person holding the gun has already basically trapped his own arm against his chest, you will be stressing the wrist.

Or you can simply pin/trap the gun or gun hand/arm to the chest and apply forearm strike with other arm to throat, nose, etc. Or a hammer blow or Mui Tai type downward elbow strike to collar bone.

Heck as long as you can stay offline from the muzzle you could use Wing Chun technique of keeping opponents gun arm trapped against chest with one hand at a time while you pound his face with multiple blows to the head. In Wing Chun you try to get opponent into this type of position since he can't protect his head from blows with the arm that is trapped.

[armedbutnotdangerous]

IMHO, any time you try to disarm when a gun is pointed at you, you've got about a 90% chance of getting shot.

One of my instructors in college (Police tactics and training class) refused to teach any disarming techniques, because he didn't want to be responsible for getting anyone shot. He said the only way anybody was ever going to shoot him was in the ass as he was running away:D !!

I personally agree with his sentiment, if not quite the whole idea.

I'm only of average skills, and think it would be difficult to disarm me without getting shot.

FWIW.

Steve.

[Spectre]

Distance, distance, distance.

If you cannot touch the gun, you get shot, at least if you're attempting a disarm.

(BTW, if have found that shorter bl firearms are harder to disarm.)

[Glamdring]

armedbutnotdangerous: Did that instructor teach weapon retention? Did they cover the statistics on LEO being shot with their or another LEO's firearm that some goblin had taken?

I don't know how one can gain any real skill at weapon retention without learning disarms.

Couple of points to ponder. One might well get shot in a gunfight, that doesn't mean you lose or die simply because you get shot.

I still remember a forensic case we studied in college. Woman was shot twice by her abusive SO inside a house with a 30-30 RIFLE. She had her arms up in the classic defensive position. Both bullets basically broke up on her arm bones. Both of those wounds were survivable. What killed her was the third shot to the head fired from near contact range after she had dropped to floor from the pain/shock of the first two shots.

One conclusion I drew from my forensic classes was if I expected someone to shoot at me and I couldn't get behind cover or out of line with the muzzle, that I could use arm or leg bones to stop or deflect a round. Not saying that would be an ideal choice, at best you would probably lose the use of that limb. But bullet in arm or leg is more survivable than one in the head or heart/lungs.

[madgrad]

Check the official Krav Maga website. And enter your question in the forums. The KM's gun disarms are the best out there and easiest to teach.

I hope this helps.

[armedbutnotdangerous]

Glamdring;

I agree that getting shot isn't necessarily a death sentence. I've seen instances where a perp was shot multiple times with 9MM and 12ga. and survived.

However, isn't having a bullet in your arm or leg going to make it a little more difficult to disarm the attacker?

Also, while attempting to disarm, odds are your hands are going to be occupied, and very likely that any shots will be contact wounds or so close that you couldn't "block" them.

Just a couple more points to ponder.

Steve.

[Glamdring]

armedbutnotdangerous: Yes, bullet in arm or leg would be bad. I just think it is a(slightly) better option than a bullet in the back [what I would expect if I ran away].

Unless I have cover or concealment very close I would rather move in on a gun armed person at close range. I am assuming the typical very close distances that armed confrontations occur at (ie a few paces at the far side). The other problem is that even if cover/concealment is present at close range goblin can often simply step or lean around or over your cover/concealment and still shoot you.

I think running before problem starts is a good idea. I am not so sure that once hostile intent has been shown that running, without a specific goal, is a good idea. Running won't solve the problem unless the goblin is to tired/lazy/whatever to give chase or shoot you as you run.

Basic tactics for disarms are: Start first so they have to respond, get off the line of force [line of fire], get control of gun muzzle, disarm or disable.

If you were within arms reach or less than a full step of arms reach I would grab or strike the gun or gun hand as I moved offline. If I am worried about were bullets go besides hitting me I would direct muzzle up or into goblins body. If I don't have to worry about other people being shot I will simply try to break the limb holding the gun while not letting it point at me.

If your a bit beyond arms reach then I would move offline while trying to present the least vulnerable part of my body that I can to his line of fire. With the arm that would mean either palm aimed at muzzle like your going to palm strike/stiff arm the gun muzzle or line up forearm with upper arm [sort of like a muay ti ready position] so bullet would have to pass thru upper and lower arm to reach torso.

The legs I have mainly thought of using them in modified roll over or reclined shooting postion with handgun if you didn't have any cover or concealment handy but did have a handgun.

I believe one should expect to get shot in a gun fight. Just like you have to expect to get cut in a knife fight.

I agree with you completly that a disarm attempt is dangerous. You said "I'm only of average skills, and think it would be difficult to disarm me without getting shot." Don't you think it would be even harder to run away from you without getting shot than it would be to disarm you without getting shot? Not to mention if you miss the person running away you can keep shooting till you run out of ammo. But if the person is attempting a disarm you have to worry about more than sight alignment?

[armedbutnotdangerous]

Glamdring;

You make some interesting points.

You've gotten me thinking....I hate that!!!!!;)

Steve.

[Glamdring]

Thanks. :cool:

[witzig]

Hi guys,been reading through and noticed a lot of you have interest in gun disarm techniques.
I think before you prepare to do the "physicall" techniques,proper prep in areas of the mind are needed.
Dont forget,this is a gun we are talking about,real and loaded so you must be phsycologically prepared,you may know all the technique but will freeze with terror if and when the time may come for desicive action.
The best Ive seen?The gun disarms used by Russian special forces,if you can learn,do so because it is just light years ahead of anything out there at the moment.
Good learning!

[skoonz]

If you drink Fosters in the US your local brew must be really bad, oh that's right I've tried Budweiser.:barf:

What you need is a good supply of Speights.

(And if any Aussie mentions the Bledisloe cup I will just point out the Warriors beating the sharks 30 - 0)

[Oink]

Don't count for nothing, we'll still win in the long run.......

Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Beer, Beer, Beer!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

[Coronach]

Our local beers are horrible, as a rule, but there are some microbrews out there that are quite good. I have yet to taste a good beer from either Australia or Canada, but I'm sure I'm getting the mass-produced pap, just the same as foreigners get Miller and Bud from the USA.

Mike

[Quartus]

Trappiste, in Belgium. Notice I didn't say, "from Belgium."

Pasturization is a crime against nature, and preservatives are for cadavers.


Back to the guns....

I notice in some posts, both with guns and in here, there is sometimes a view that says, "If it isn't 100% guarnateed to work, it's useless." Oh, it's never said in those words. It goes more like this, "Well, even if you ----, this other thing coiuld happen. You're kiddiing yourself if you think that will do you any good!"


Well, then everything is useless. Marksmanship is useless, tactical training is useless, physical fitness is useless, martial arts training is useless - hey, even carrying a gun is useless!

Oh, carrying a 9mm is completely useless because it's not as powerful as a ----- (fill in your favorite weapon). No, carrying a .45 is not one bit better than a 9mm because you can't guarantee that every shot will be more effective than a 9.

Studying ----- (fill in the MA of your choice) is useless because you might encounter 5 BGs and they will stomp you anyway. You might encounter a reeely big guy and he will stomp you anyway.


But it's not about 100% guarantees. It's about maximizing our chances, isn't it? So anything that will improve our chances is.... useful, isn't it?

[Spectre]

Cap'n, you most certainly have a point.

[Art Eatman]

During my limited amount of training in unarmed combat, the instructor covered attempting to disarm a Bad Guy. The high-speed, flowing sequence is 1. Clear one's body of the line of fire; 2. Control (grab) the BG's weapon; and 3. Attack. (I'd scream as loud as I could, trying for "Psych" as well as action. :) )

This basically works if you're within maybe five to six feet of the gun; it probably works best if the BG's handgun is in the proto-typical Hollywood extended-arm grip.

It seems pretty well proven that if you make that first move, out of the line of fire, the BG's trigger finger will respond before he turns his body or moves his arm; the first shot misses.

My pesonal opinion is that if I just stood there, I'd likely die; if I do something, I may well be unharmed or "merely" wounded. Howsomever, wounds can be surviveable--and adrenalin helps.

More opinion: Few BGs expect an attack as a response--they learned from both movies or earlier experience. Surprise is always a help.

FWIW,

Art

[C.R.Sam]

As Captain Hoek points out.... nuttin in life comes with a warrenty card.

In the late 60s I had had a fair amount of unconventional training. Figured that with a lot of luck I could take a rifle or handgun away from front or back. A key requirement being that the person holding the gun has not made the decision to fire. Since in all probability I would be dead meat anyway I am sure that I would give it a try. If bg's reaction time slower than my action time I would have a pretty good shot of pullin it off.

My #2, who trained with me, walked into a situation where he was forced to try it......and was successfull. BG shot himself under the chin and expired from brain ventallation. Turned out well and was a correct decision. Bg had just shot another so was a proven shooter.

In the years hence I have drilled a bit. Bout four years ago I was challanged by an instructor twenty years my junior and a hundred pounds bigger. He was left handed and drew red gun on me holding it tight into his ribs. Gun clicked while pointed at his head. Suprised the hell out of both of us.

Then again recently I tried it with a stout man and a plastic pistol. Pistol broke apart just ahead of the trigger guard and it was still pointed at my chest. Lost that one big time.

Like the Cap'n says, no guarentees.......but worth a try.

Sam

[Cheapo]

Wow. That really makes one think, C.R.Sam.

Personally, I'd rather die trying than just die. Exellent points above about mere possibilities NOT being justification to abandon efforts to improve your own probabilities.

Stack the deck, friends. And don't forget sand in the eyes and liberal application of teeth if possible.

[Quartus]

Personally, I'd rather die trying than just die.


Me too, but some would say the results are the same either way.


Some see a difference. It's called honor.

[Spectre]

Bah. With some of us, it's pure mulishness! :D

[Quartus]

:p



:D

[C.R.Sam]

Not honor so much as choosing the lesser of two very bad choices. Darn near always a choice, just sometimes hard to choose. Kinda like bein up to your chin and havin somebody throw a bucket of @@@@ at you....do you duck ?

Sam