.44 special,opinions as a defensive round? Good guns chambered in it?

[45automan]

Hi guys my friend has an old S&W revolver in .44SPCL and loves it it is his CCW gun. He has had the trigger smoothed out and chopped the trigger guard a la Fritz. Is the 44spcl dead? My buddy says that in factory loading it is very close to the 45acp for power levels,is this right? He also handloads and says you can really wake this round up that way. He keeps his loads not so hot as this an older gun. I have fired it and it is not bad. Any new guns being made in this caliber? Thanks for your help guys, 45automan

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. The .44 Spec with traditional 246 gr LRN usually averages just below 800 ft/sec compared to the .45ACP's 230 gr FMJ @ about 840 ft/sec so I'd say the .44 Spec is a tad behind the .45ACP. That's not to say that the .44 Spec cannot be a decent stopper. I've chronographed several .44 Spec factory loads from a 3" bbl'd Taurus M431: CCI Blazer 200 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point ~ 829 ft/sec.
Glaser Silver 135 gr Safety Slug ~ 1032 ft/sec. Triton 165 gr QuikShok ~ 1088 ft/sec. PMC 180 gr JHP ~ 827 ft/sec. My Taurus is currently loaded with the above-mentioned QuikShoks. Best.

[Marcus]

I don`t think it`s dead. Taurus has a few new models in .44Special that are pretty spiffy. Watch the velocity in short barrels though. Some of the loads shot throught these ported snubbies are only generating velovities in the mid 600fps. range! That`s REALLY SLOW! With the right backstop I`ll bet you can actually SEE the bullet on it`s way to the target. I can`t imagine it would be too effective as a defense round at that speed. Some of the hotter loads and especially out of an unported longer barrel should work pretty well though. Marcus

[Glamdring]

The 44 Special is a VERY good Defense round.
The two best loads IMO are the CCI-Speer Blazer with the 200 Gold Dot HP [HUGE HOLLOWPOINT!] only bad thing about that load is not all guns like the aluminum Blazer cases [and you can't reload them] and the Winchester 200 Silvertip HP.

Taurus makes a few snub 44 specials http://www.taurususa.com/
Or you can shoot 44 specials in a 44 mag [it is like shooting 38's in a 357].
My nightstand gun is a 4" 629 with the Blazer 200 GDHP. Till I get enough good brass then I will handload that bullet to around 900 fps.

The factory loads push 200 grain bullets around 700-800 fps from 4" barrels.

Taurus is the only game in town [not counting S&W] for CCW type 44 specials. Or you can have Bowen or someone chop down a Ruger Redhawk.

IMHO the good 200 grain HP's @ 800-900 fps should equal 45 ACP.

Or you could go with the Taurus 5 shot guns in 45 Long Colt if you reload, since you can use 45 acp bullets in the long colt at same velocity [Hydra Shocks, Gold Dots, etc]. If you don't reload Cor Bon is only place I know that loads decent defense load for the 45 Long Colt.

[Glamdring]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stephen A. Camp:
Hello. The .44 Spec with traditional 246 gr LRN usually averages just below 800 ft/sec compared to the .45ACP's 230 gr FMJ @ about 840 ft/sec so I'd say the .44 Spec is a tad behind the .45ACP. That's not to say that the .44 Spec cannot be a decent stopper. I've chronographed several .44 Spec factory loads from a 3" bbl'd Taurus M431: CCI Blazer 200 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point ~ 829 ft/sec.
Glaser Silver 135 gr Safety Slug ~ 1032 ft/sec. Triton 165 gr QuikShok ~ 1088 ft/sec. PMC 180 gr JHP ~ 827 ft/sec. My Taurus is currently loaded with the above-mentioned QuikShoks. Best.[/quote]
Well remember a 3" revolver is about the same as a Colt Commander. What does a 45 ACP clock out of a Commander with factory loads?

[C.R.Sam]

I recently picked up a USED S+W 696 3" non ported. Seems to be extremely accurate and very mild with 200gr at bout 900fps. Got a thou or so 215gr slugs and am goin to start workin up a load for them. Want em to be healthy but still fun to shoot, probably end up at around 1000fps. Don't think porting would make much velocity difference but definatly do not want a ported defensive weapon.

I see no reason why the .44spec or even the .44 Russian would not be great defensive round. Heavy bullet, decent velocity and large hole.

I blame it all on James E., who got me started on the .44 family. Now I may be hooked.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R

[Grapeshot]

You basically have two real choices. I am extremely pleased with my Smith and Wesson 696, and would recommend it over the Taurus. It is a little bigger and heavier than the Taurus ones, but in my experience, that weight makes it way more pleasant to shoot.. Also, mine is extremely accurate, much more so than most Taurus revolvers I've owned. Also, be advised that porting a .44 Spec. may not be a good idea because a) mine is already SUPER LOUD as it is, and b) the ports just collect leading you'll hafta clean off later if you practice with lead bullets, which the .44 Spec. loves. Lastly, I have had way better luck with new, out-of-the-box Smiths than I have Tauruses, which seem to need to go right back to the factory since they weren't put together right the first time (I like Taurus, really! But their QC sucks!).
If you look at the 696 and like it, buy it. You have no reason to feel guilty, since there is nothing out there comparable to its quality. Because of their own stupidity, S&W will eventually go out of business anyway, whether you buy a .44 spec. from them or not.

[riddleofsteel]

for years i have loaded the 180 grain Hornady XTP hollowpoint to 1100 fps or the Nosler 200 grain semijacketed hollowpoint to 1000 fps both from 44 Special cases. these loads really shine from my S&W 629 Classic and i use them as self defense loads when i carry that gun hiking or fishing. i designed them primarly as low recoil high energy loads for humans and ferrel dogs. i have been lucky enough to not have tested them in the human application but i can say on dogs they are excellent. i have also taken deer with both loads at close distances and had clean kills.
i would agree for the need to chrono your loads from short barrel snubbies. ported barrels reduce velocity even more. my other reservation, that has kept a .44 sunbbie or a .45 Colt snubbie out of my holster is this

What can you do with 5 rounds of .44 Special or .45 Colt that you can not get done with six rounds of .357 Mag.?

five shot big bore revolvers are about the same size and weight as six shot .357's. plus recoil is about the same when you are shoving a 180 to 250 grain .44 or .45 bullet at pumpkin roller speeds as when you launch a .357 junior law rocket 125 grain bullet.

any application where i NEED a 250 grain .45 hard cast bullet such as to penetrate the vitals of a large animal ect. i will chose a gun such as a Blackhawk or a Redhawk. that way i will have enough barrel to squeeze out the velocity need to really push that big bullet and enough weight to dampen recoil.
IMHO the pocket/belt holster snubbie technology reached it's zenith with the .357 mag. with the way it performs on humans and small wild animals i see no reason to carry a larger bore and sacrifice a round. it seems like a step back to me.

------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. That's a very good question concerning the Commander bbl's velocity with .45ACP. I don't have too many loads chronographed with the 4 1/4" tube, but here's some of what I do have:
96 gr Magsafe Defender ~ 1699 ft/sec. Cor*Bon 185 gr JHP +P ~ 1104 ft/sec. 230 gr Federal HydraShok ~ 842 ft/sec. Triton 165 gr QuikShok ~ 1198 ft/sec. Remington 230 gr Golden Saber ~ 822 ft/sec. Best.

[Grapeshot]

Riddleofsteel,

I think it's nice to have an alternative to the .357 in a snubbie - not everybody likes the ear-shattering crack and flamethrower muzzle blast associated with a .357 Mag. Put differently, in general, a .44 Spec. will accomplish the same thing that a .357 will with a lot less noise, flash, and powder behind its bullet (a consideration for cheapskate reloaders like myself). As for 4 vs. 6 rounds, I have never felt undergunned since I carry a couple of extra speed loaders . I trust my life to my 5 shot 638 without question.

[jimmy]

A couple of posts mention the S&W Model 696. So, a related question: does anyone have any experience with the Model 296 (titanium .44 Special L-frame with concealed hammer)? My dealer has a pre-pact 296 that's been sitting in his display case for months. It's such an unusual gun that I'm not sure whether it'd really be useful for concealed carry or end up a kind of white elephant.

TIA.

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited July 30, 2000).]

[SG12]

I tend to agree with Grapeshot on the effects of a snubbie 357's noise and muzzle blast in a confined space. Used to camp at a friend's farm that had an abandoned farmhouse on it. Decided one night I would see what it was like to discharge a 357 snub at night and in a small room. The results were dramatic enough that I traded it off and bought a S&W 696 when they first came out. Sent it to Jack Weigand for his Tame the Beast package MINUS the porting. It looks great and shoots 1.8" groups at 20 yards with Hornady 180 XTPs. I carry it with the Hornadys or Blazer 200gr. gold dots and feel very well armed. By the way, I carried out the same test with the Hornadys in the same old farmhouse. Although the noise was considerable, I was not blinded by the muzzle flash like I was with the 357.

By the way, I did use hearing protection. I don't need any more hearing loss!

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The real democratic American idea is, not that everyman shall be on a level with every other, but that every one shall have liberty, without hindrance, to be what God made him . . . H.W. Beecher

[This message has been edited by SG12 (edited July 30, 2000).]

[PreserveFreedom]

I have thought about getting a 44 special snubbie. The only thing is, I hate limiting myself short of Magnum rounds. It is still tempting though.

[James E]

Yes, C.R. Sam...James E strikes again...mooohaaaw! :D

Jim

[Richard]

Grapeshot, how many Taurus 441 revolvers have you shot? I have owned one for two years and it is reliable and accurate. I bought it in LNIB condition for $150 + shipping and I have changed the grips and it received a trigger reduction and trigger job. I don't have $250 in mine. How much do you have in your Smith and Wesson 696? I have owned and shot a lot of S&W 44 Special Hand Ejectors and Model
24s. They will not shoot with my Taurus. Regards, Richard

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Jimmy. I owned a 296 for awhile, but really didn't care for it all that much in that it was too big for a pocket gun (for me) and while very comfortable in a belt holster, other weapons packing more punch and shots could be carried about as easily. Surprisingly, recoil was not bad, but was sharp. The interesting thing is that my particular .44 Spec revolver would chamber .44 Magnums! Best.

[riddleofsteel]

the "crack and muzzle flash" of a .357 is totally dependant on the brand of ammo/powder used. in the early days most handgun powders had horrendous muzzleflash. many modern ammo companies that manufacture ammo for self denfense and law enforcement have responded to the need for low flash powders. i see no reason with today's improved ammo why the .357 mag would flash any more than any other cartridge provided equal amounts of powder are burned ect. higher pressures make progressive powders burn faster ect. but there again i see very little difference firing my .44 special self defense loads under low light conditions compared to my .357 mag loads or my .40 S&W loads for that matter. flash is a function of a powder's burn rate and particle coating not caliber.
having said that what i was refering to is the fact that most of us either have or can get a .357 mag snubbie cheap. i see no reason to pay high dollar for a new .44 or .41 or .45 snubbie and lose a round in the bargin when by judicious choice of ammo we can shoot the time proven .357 mag snubbie and be just as well defended.
flame suit on. LOL

------------------
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.

[C.R.Sam]

Riddleofsteel.....I agree with you re the flash and the choice of .357 mag for defense gun. My point was that the old .44s were also good stoppers. I would never buy a five shot .44spec at the exclusion of a 6 shot .357mag. Having both makes it easy for me, play with and carry whoever wants to go out on any particular day.

Sam....my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R

[Glamdring]

The 44 special is a much lower pressure round and larger bore which also reduces pressure.

And the recoil impulse is MUCH softer than a 357 mag [ie more of a shove than a punch].

No one is saying you have to go with the 44 over the 357.

[riddleofsteel]

i agree with that. i have always loved old calibers. the .44 special,the .45 Colt and the 38-40 have always held a special place in my heart.
i have had a Tarus titanium .45 Colt snubbie in my hand with money burning a hole in my pocket on two different occasions. what held me back was..
1. the Tarus was a new model, unproven
2. the Tarus was ported (i have a Weigland hybraported "Tame the Beast" conversion of the Ruger SP101 i don't carry)
3. the Tarus was over $400.00 dollars or so i forget the exact figure
4. i knew where there was a NIB Ruger Speed Six for sale for $250.00 as part of an estate sell out.
5. i already had a set of Eagle Secret Service grips in rosewood with a silver star inlay for the Speed Six in my grip collection.

i guess the rest was a no brainer. still i am tempted by the siren's song when i see a new Tarus in the case. it is getting time that a few used ones are surfacing. maybe i will get one of them at a deal.

[Torpedo]

Charter 2000 makes a nice 5 shot .44 special in 3 inch. They can be found at: www.charterfirearms.com (http://www.charterfirearms.com) Take a look. I have an original charter arms .44 bulldog and it is my favortie CCW revolver.

------------------
***Torpedo***
It's a good life if you can survive it!

[Grapeshot]

Riddleofsteel,
No need for a flame suit! If there are some low-flash factory loads, share the info. In my neck of the woods, (North Central WV) most people prefer to reload their own shells due to cost, a lack of availability, and a lack of variety. Unfortunately, this same lack of variety tends to carry over to reloading components. Thus the .357 reloader can find any kind of powder he wants, so long as its Win. 296. On the other hand, Bullseye is quite commonly encountered, so I just stoke the .44 with a moderate charge of that and top it off with an inexpensive commercial 240 LSWC. What I am saying is, considering commonly available commercial ammo and components, it's easier to end up with a low-flash, low-blast .44 Spec. load. And even if you get a low-flash .357 load, a 125-grainer at 1350-1450 fps is is still pretty loud to me. Of course, one could just bypass this difficulty by shooting .38's in the snubbie, but then at that point, there go the benefits of owning a .357.
I think you are right on about the .357 being more inexpensive to acquire, and they are good guns (I had an SP101). But do not disregard the "fun factor" of a .44 Spec. - to some of us, the initial higher cost of the gun is worth it to be able to bowl over big chunks of firewood in a protracted plinking session. As for 5 vs. 6 shot, I guess that's a matter of personal comfort. If you feel seriously undergunned by stepping down to 5 rounds, well, how do you know that even 6 will be enough? Why not just carry a 15-shot Beretta? Some people like capacity, and that's just fine. For me, though, I figure that if any situation isn't over by the time 5 shots have been discharged, I'm probably in way more trouble than that extra round of .357 could get me out of anyway.

[Frenchy]

I have also owned a Charter Arms Bulldog 44 many years ago. I found it to be a capable and reliable revolver. This would make a strong and inexpensive choice.

Frenchy

------------------
Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!

[Grapeshot]

Richard,

Here are my responses to your your inquiries:

1. "How many Taurus 441's have you owned?"
One, Richard, same as you. I'm not going to argue about whose experience was more valid, but since you brought it up I will recount the details of mine. I had a 6" 441 (I think the 431 was fixed sighted) which broke within the first 50 rounds of factory ammo being fired through it. After 6 weeks or so, it came back and was a good revolver after that, grouping about 3.5 inches at 25 yards. A good gun, but not a great gun. If you're happy with yours, more power to you.

2. "How much was your 696?"
I paid $125 more for the Smith (about $375 or so). I got what I paid for. The Taurus never performed as well and had a dismal resale value in my area. The 696, however, will be passed down to my grandchildren some day.

[Archie]

The .44 Special is an excellent self defense round. The 246 RNL loading is just under marginal, but any of the higher performance loads or most any decent handload is suitable. "The" handload for general use in a 44 Spl is 245 SWC lead bullet and a moderate dose of Unique.
My own 44 is a S&W "N" frame with a 5.5 inch barrel. A SA revolver (Ruger or replica) is also very suitable for use, presuming one can connect with a target.

Glamdring, I like your name. My first 1911 was named Anduril.

------------------
Archie

[Richard]

Grapeshot, there is one problem. Your S&W still needs a double action trigger job and unless you can do it yourself they aren't cheap. In the end you and I will agree that the 44 Special is special. Regards, Richard.

[bk40]

shameless plug ;)
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41617

price is negotiable

[lucky085]

Corbon's 44spl ammo will go over 1000ft/sec in a short/barreled gun, not bad for self-defense. I have the taurus TI 44, no probs so far, and mild recoil even with corbon.

[Grapeshot]

Richard,

Actually I am satisfied with the trigger on my 696, while not comparable to some older Smiths I've shot, it is pretty good - just different. I sure wish they would go back to the old lockwork.
You're right, The .44 Spec. is pretty sweet.

[Richard]

Grapeshot, this has got to stop! Are you are talking about the hammer fall and trigger on triple locks and 1917 S&W revolvers? I prefer the new models. Why? The hammer takes a long time to fall on the older S&W revolvers and the metal is better on the newer models. Lets see if our discussion ends now or that we have to agree to disagree:-) Regards, Richard.

[Jeff, CA]

Rossi makes the model 720 - or they used to, at least. The choices were a DA/SA with adjustable sights, or a DAO with fixed.

[Coinneach]

I have a Taurus 431 in .44 Special out in the Jeep right now, loaded with 200gr Silvertips. It has a smooooth DA pull, it's one-hole accurate, and recoil is totally managable. My only beef with it is that Hogue wraparounds for medium-frame Tauri don't fit.

As far as .44SPL being dead, I have only one thing to say: :rolleyes:

[Grapeshot]

Oops, sorry Richard! I've never had a Triple-lock or 1917. Heck, I was referring to the difference between newly manufactured S&W's and Smiths of 10 or 15 years ago (which I thought had more of the "glass-rod" sensation). I think it is only within the last couple of years that Smith made some big changes to their lockwork, probably because it was cheaper/easier to manufacture. I saw reference to this on one of the gunsmithing boards.
Sorry I wasn't clear.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

I can't think of any other handloading expert that I know who I would trust more than Elmer Keith... having read all his books and duplicated many of his loads.. I can't agree more with the paragraph I read below regarding some of his loads.. I have loaded this exact loads for my Model 696 and my 44 mountain gun.. Out of the 3 and 4 inch barrels they usually round out at about 1000 and 1050fps respectively.. remember that Keith was using 5.5 and 7.5 inch Colts for most of his shooting.. and a few 6 inch 38/44s... To all those that want to talk about 45 ACP, I would tell you that a 250 gr bullet doing 1000 fps seems to stomp a mud hole in that theory.. and for all the 357 fans arguing for that extra bullet.. well if you can't hit him with the first 5 shots, I would bet my paycheck you won't hit him with the sixth. Well have fun, just my two cents.. whatever you shoot, keep voting to protect our rights to shoot them and argue over them. Thanks everyone.

For all you 44 special handloaders... The classic Keith 250 grain 44 Special load....

44 SPECIAL: Elmer's early load for his beloved Special was 18.5 grains of # 2400 with the 250 grain Keith bullet #429421 in balloon head cases. When solid cases came along, with less powder capacity, the charge was dropped to 17.0 grains. Both loads go over 1200+ fps. from a 7 1/2" Colt Single Action and are exceptionally accurate especially in a Smith & Wesson Model 24.

[seb5]

Um....... don't you think that would be little stout in a lightweight snub?

[LAK]

I think that like the other aged rounds such as the .45 Colt, .455 Webley, etc shooting any big heavy lead bullet, the .44 Special is just fine.

I like those heavy lead flatnosed "cowboy" loads in any revolver from .38 Special on up.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

It is a manageble round, and personally I do not take my ccw gun out to shoot for fun, I drill with it as necessary and to insure that it functions when needed. But, my point was that the 44 special is long from dead and will outperform any of the above mentioned calibers in raw stopping power. For those who use the charter arms Elmer had a load that has been my pleasure to shoot in these as well.. it is...

250 Keith over 7.5 grains of Unique , this particular load clocks 910 fps out of the bulldog.

Everyone have a great day.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

I just wanted to let everyone know and you probably already do that you should always research a load before loading it for your handgun or rifle. Not all guns are able to handle the pressures generated by such loads. While this loads that I have posted are tried and tested by many a soul, your gun may not handle them due to age or condition of your particular gun. Also for all those who will say that I copied some info from an article or two, you are correct, I posted by those loads from articles that I have bookmarked that are great reading for anyone loading the .44 special. I have tested and shot both of these loads and enjoy them. I hope everyone has a great day and shoot one for me.

Later.

[Majic]

When the conversation turned to the snub revolvers chambered in .357mag vs .44sp I noticed that the 5 shot vs 6 shot idea kept popping up. Don't forget that there is a 6 shot .44sp snub revolver that equalizes that difference of opinion.
http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/149412/0.jpg
S&W Model 24-3

[Ozzieman]

3 smith 28's, one that was built from a Smith Mod 28, and a charter arms bulldog in stanless.
Any one that says that the 44 sp is not a good defence load is a fool!
"FOOL"
When the stanless bulldog came out in the early 80 I bought one and have carried it more than any other gun that I own.
A good friend of mine that was the balistic expert for the Indiana State poliece ask to borrow it for some balistic testing with Winchester silvertips.
Out of a 3 inch barrel of the bulldog it averaged around 800FPS and when fired into a water tank the average size of the bullets was around .720 inches. The smallest being .67 and the largest was .8, I still have the bullets and the other thing that impressed me was he also fired some through heavy clothing including one through a very heavy leather jacket. He told me at the time it was one of the most consistant preforming bullets that he had ever fired through clothing.
The other thing about the 44 sp is that it is a very close copy of the 44 russan, which by all acounts was and is one of the most accurate rounds ever desighned.
So keep your 9's or 40's 10mm with 18 round capacity, I'll take one well placed round with an OLD 44 sp any day.
Then again I'm an old fart too.

[Tamara]

Of my 3" N-frames, my 624 wouldn't be my first choice for totin', however I do carry a Model 296 in my purse every single day. I keep it loaded with 200gr Gold Dots, usually, but I'm also quite comfortable with Silvertips or Federal's LSWC-HP load...

In my experience, smaller .44 Special guns (Rossi 720 and the Bulldog) suffer grievously in the longevity department when used extensively with warm loads in the 240gr and up weight class.

[FirstFreedom]

Hey it's .45acp ballistics out of a revolver, right? And we all know how popular .45acp is as a defensive round. So what's not to like? (cept that a .45acp revo is even better, because reloading is faster, and ammo more varied).

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

If there is one name in CCW and close quarters combat that speaks with authority, it would have to be Thunder Ranch. I find it a happy day when S&W and Thunder Ranch team together to build a new gun. It just so happens it is a Model 21 .44 Special. If Thunder Ranch can take the time and effort to get S&W to build a new model .44 special, I would feel comfortable in saying to the rest of you guys that it is apparentely still a viable choice for CCW and Combat purposes.. Here's some info a a few pics.. Yes Tamara it is still a full size, but that 296 is a bit bulky too. :) I personally love my 686 and will rely on it long after this discussion has ended. Have a good one everyone... And to hit on what Tamara said about the smaller guns and the heavier loads.. I agree.. the second 250 grain load I posted shoots fine through these guns.. I have a shooting buddy who regulary uses them in his .44 bulldog and it has eaten more than 4,000 rounds in it's time.

http://www.moonclips.com/m21info.htm

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Just saw your post my friend.. I would agree that .45 acp is a popular round and I love the .45 1911 when shooting an Auto. But in an Auto or in a Revolver, you will be hard pressed to find a .45 acp round that comes close to what a .44 special can do. The closest thing I know of is a 230grain at 1100 fps and that is out of a 45 super.. not a 45 acp. If you know of any hotter loads for the 45 acp, I would love to know about them, as I have a S&W 25-2 and would love some more power in it. Thanks.

Have a good one everyone..

[tulsamal]

My daily carry is a S&W M296 with the CorBon .44 Special load. I _used_ to carry a much loved S&W M640 in .357 Magnum but the larger bore finally won me over. (Both five shots.) The CorBon load has some real thump to it. It will wake you right up out of the 18 ounce M296!

I've got photo here of an ammo test with .44 Special that I got _somewhere_ on the net. If somebody recognizes it, speak up and give the guy credit.

http://homepage.mac.com/greggg/44specrecov.jpg

[Edward429451]

I have an older CA Bulldog which I load for with a 180g WC and around 12.0g 2400 for longevitys sake and it does pretty good with it, no figures, no Chrony (bang-whoops)

Anyhoo, OT a little but was loading some 44 mag shotshells last night (found out long ago that shotshells in Speer's little blue plastic cups dont mesh well with Bulldogs, recoil shatters and unseats the remaining rounds in cylinder)

So there I am loading mag shotshells, and my friend drops by with two boxes of .380 bullets (95g JRN) that he bought mistakenly, thinking it was 380 ammo, and realizing his mistake and knowing I'm a reloader thought to give them to me. I'm loading, he's playing around with the plastic shot cups and drops in two .380 slugs and its a perfect fit (nose first, base to base) so I began wondering...what about a duplex load for the Bulldog with the .380's? Make it a 10 shot instead of a 5 shot. Sure, they'd tumble and keyhole, but so what at shotshell distances for pest control? Probably not for any serious use beyond short range pest control and plinking but wondered how feasible it would be. Something to toy around with. I think I'll load a few to see if they hold together at least, but I am curious...

Anybody ever tried anything like this before, sub caliber slugs in shot caps?

[FirstFreedom]

44mag:

The closest thing I know of is a 230grain at 1100 fps and that is out of a 45 super.. not a 45 acp. If you know of any hotter loads for the 45 acp, I would love to know about them, as I have a S&W 25-2 and would love some more power in it.

Well, if you know of a .44 special load that actually does that, then I stand corrected, because no, even +P acps wont get even close to 1,100 with 230s, will they? However, what load that you mention pushes 230 to 1,100 fps in .44 spec? Are you sure that's a real critter? Look at Tulsamal's examples of some common defense loadings above - all the 200s are showing in the under-900fps range. Would stand to reason that 230s would go even slower. And, CorBon's 165 gr .45 acp is advertised at 1,250, whereas Corbon's .44 spec 165 is shown at 1,150! http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1609 Corbon's 230 gr is advertised at 950, and it's 200 grainer at 1050. So I think your perception is off.

In any event, it should be pointed out that .45 super is certainly do-able in acp revolvers, - surely any .45 acp revolver will stand up to super loadings, no? (since it's the brass contruction, not the pressure level, that is the primary difference, and even if it is the slightly higher pressure, it's still going to be easily handled by a revolver - but legal disclaimer - consult your resident metallurgist before trying. I for one am planning on testing some super loads in my Taurus Tracker in acp). Texas ammo and possibly Triton still have .45 super ammo available, if you didn't know, or you could load your own, and I'd bet that's going to beat *most* .44 spec loads pretty handily, but then again with more recoil and blast, etc., so it's apples and oranges, and if we're going to bring in oranges, why not talk about .44 mag guns, right? But if you want to shoot super, brass is available from starline. So for now, I'm sticking with the claim that .45 acp +P is easily equal to .44 spec in ballistics in factory loads. Or to put it another way, as I did originally, the .44 spec meets the ballistics of .45 acp, contrary to what some think. :) I perceive that some view the .44 spec as anemic, for some reason [Now if you just HAVE TO have a 240 or 250 gr bullet, then the special will trump the acp].

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Just wanted to reply to your post FirstFreedom... While you point out your theory about heavier weight bullets going slower than lighter bullets is a general rule of thumb that I can agree with you seem to left out the fact that in every rule of thumb, there are exceptions. If you look back to my original 2 postings you will see that I have posted loads that have been around since the 50's that push a 250grain bullet in the 900 to 1100 fps range out of a short barreled (3 or 4 inch) pistol. That's an extra 20 grains of bullet. If we want to stay with factory loads, Black Hills is currently releasing with the new Model 21 I posted earlier a 250 grain keith load that shoots in the 900 fps range as well.. As in all factory loads they are underloaded to appease the lawyers. Now to answer the 45 super question.. I thought we were talking about the 45 ACP? so I won't even delve into changing cases.. It changes the debate if we want to discuss a different round. I personally enjoy some of the 230 grain hollow points in my 45 acp, but it still doesn't get over 800 fps very often. I reload my 45 acp as enthusiastically as I do my 44 special, so please if you find a load that will duplicate Elmer keiths 250 grain 44 special load that has been around since the 1950's. I would love to see it. Thanks.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

For all of you guys who have asked me about the Model 21 .44 Special here is the link to the contact info on Thunder Ranch's website. Good luck with it.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/swtrr.htm

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

I just had to post this.. right from Clint Smith on the Thunder Ranch website:

The Smith & Wesson Thunder Ranch® Special revolver is a unique firearm in today's world. It is a revival, a restoration if you will, to the era of fighting revolvers…it is designed for its intended purpose. It has no titanium or scandium it is made of blue steel because it should be. It has fixed steel sights because fixed sights work well on fighting revolvers and they do not need adjustable sights. Adjustable sights can be susceptible to damage and are not required because the person who buys this revolver will not be changing loads or testing ammunition. The designated Black Hills Thunder Ranch® .44 Special 250 Keith style SWC made for the Smith & Wesson Thunder Ranch® Revolver will serve the purpose of personal protection.

The person who purchases this revolver will do so for serious reasons, personal defense or the defense of their families. It is not vogue, it is not equipped with fluorescent colored tube sights and lights, and made of fancy metal and space age stocks…it is large bore six shot revolver made of blue steel and wood, it is a fighting revolver.

It is…as it should be.

Clint Smith
Thunder Ranch®, Inc.

[tulsamal]

It is not vogue, it is not equipped with fluorescent colored tube sights and lights, and made of fancy metal and space age stocks…it is large bore six shot revolver made of blue steel and wood, it is a fighting revolver.

And with a big, shiny gold logo on one sideplate that could be used to signal aircraft on one side and a hole in the sideplate on the other side. And people are paying dealer prices in the $800 range for the "joy" of owning one.

I was _very_ excited about the new 21 when it was first talked about. Once the "real deal" showed up along with the very high price, I know longer was. If they get "closed out" at CDNN some day for $399, maybe I will bite.

Gregg

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

Well two things you should know,that maybe you don't Tulsa... The gold logo is not on the production model, and geeze.. it is a special edition gun, you have to expect it to be expensive. :) I was just showing the fact that Thunder Ranch believes enough in the .44 special as a defensive round that they pursued S&W to produce one. That's all. I would spend my money on a .44 Mag Mountain gun instead of this, same size. But I do like the fixed sites.. Well have fun.. see ya guys..

[tulsamal]

The gold logo is not on the production model

Yes, it is.

it is a special edition gun, you have to expect it to be expensive.

I think that touches on the problem. Clint saw it as a reintroduction of a fine old fighting gun. He didn't want the logo. And he wanted it to be a mainstream price. The S&W marketing people apparently saw it as a "special edition" gun so they wanted to put the gold sideplate on, have a glass presentation case, make it a Performance Center "special gun," and price it accordingly.

The one slim hope I have is that S&W will decide (down the road somewhere) to produce a "Plain Jane" version. Just a straight 21. I _would_ be planning to buy such a thing EXCEPT is would have to be a "replica" of the original. Which means either no lock at all or find a way to make it invisible. I used to think only "no lock" was going to make me happy but the new Ruger lock under the grips gives me hope for the future. A lock like that I can live with. One that gives me a hole in the side of a gun I won't buy unless it is some kind of close-out clearance price. Even then I will mourn for what it "might have been."

Gregg

[tulsamal]

The gold logo is not on the production model

I even went to the trouble of checking the auction sites.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976538192.htm

http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976538192-1.jpg

Or here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=27440905

Or here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=27528440

Or even here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=27574936

Gregg

[FirstFreedom]

Although you sounds like a much more experienced and knowledgeable reloader than me, and I respect what you're saying generally is correct, I still must take exception to your specific claims at this time: First, you're right we should stick with apples and apples...44 spec vs. .45 acp, including +P. But, we should also stick to other apples to apples - factory loads to factory loads.

While you point out your theory about heavier weight bullets going slower than lighter bullets is a general rule of thumb that I can agree with you seem to left out the fact that in every rule of thumb, there are exceptions. Well, yes and no. It's not really a theory....it's a scientific certainty that, ceterus paribus, a heavier bullet with the same load will go slower, 99.999% of the time, but I understand what you're saying.

If you look back to my original 2 postings you will see that I have posted loads that have been around since the 50's that push a 250grain bullet in the 900 to 1100 fps range out of a short barreled (3 or 4 inch) pistol.

Huge difference between 900 and 1100. And apples and oranges, if you're talking about a handload. And, a 3 or 4 inch revo is equivalent to a 4 or 5 inch semi, due to the way bbls are measured, and so if we want to call that "short" then fine, but it's pretty standard as well in a defensive gun (3 or 4 in a revo, vs. 4 and 5 in a semi - commander vs. gov't). So we're talking standard to standard - apples and apples - good! [What I mean by this is that, although the question at issue is .44 spec revolver vs. .45 acp revolver, the vel numbers quoted for comparison are usually tested in 5" semi pistols, and so are comparable to what they would do - or what a .44 spec would do, by comparison, from a 4" revolver in either caliber].

If we want to stay with factory loads, Black Hills is currently releasing with the new Model 21 I posted earlier a 250 grain keith load that shoots in the 900 fps range as well.

900 ain't 1,100, and 20 grains ain't but a smidge - that's only 08.7% heavier than a 230. Besides, look back at my post - as you can see, Corbon's 230 grain .45 acp is advertised at 950, and if true then that's a bullet only 8.7% lighter going the same or faster. So, extraordinarily close ballistics, as I said originally.


As in all factory loads they are underloaded to appease the lawyers. Correct, and equally true if not more so with acp as well (due to the little light plastic .45 semis out nowadays), and that's why we need to stick with apples & apples - factory loads, right? :)

Actually, I'm going to have to amend & refine my original thought, after looking at these numbers. The .44 spec, with factory loads, equals the .45 acp. in loadings up to 230, *almost* equals the .45 acp +Ps in loadings up to 230, then equals .45 acp +Ps again with 240s or 250s. ;)

I reload my 45 acp as enthusiastically as I do my 44 special, so please if you find a load that will duplicate Elmer keiths 250 grain 44 special load that has been around since the 1950's. I would love to see it.

No, I don't. I think you're right that with heavy-bullet *handloads*, .44 spec wins, and stays within saami, etc. But again, that ain't factory.

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

tulsa.. thank you for your enthusiasm. Apparently I was wrong on the Model 21 and the logo, but it was my understanding from the S&W salesman I spoke to that it would not be on the gun. So kudos.. and I would agree.. Clint Smith never meant this to be a presentation gun.. S&W strikes again. I stand by my earlier comment.. I would just buy a 44 mountain gun, which I own and love. Have a good one.

[tex_n_cal]

Cor-Bon also makes a 165 Gr .44 Special load that goes 1150 fps, which should work well for defense - that's about equal to a 45 ACP +P.

Those TR Models 21 do look pretty goofy, but both of the ones I've seen sold quickly.

As far as other good defensive .44 specials, the various S&W's are good, so are any of the traditional DA revolvers from Colt or S&W, though I would not run hot loads in an old revo. The best guns may be some of the lighter .44 mag guns, like the Mountain revolver, or Scandium models.

The Heavy Keith loads I WILL shoot someday when my .44 Special arrives, but they are not for the foolish or faint of heart, as in some guns they may approach .44 mag pressures. A chrono and caution are indicated.

[Socrates]

Tex is getting close. The S&W 329PD would be the ideal 44. Light enough for carry, but, strong enough to push mid 44 mag loads if the shooter can.

Weighs the same as a 3 inch Kimber 45, but will take near full house 44 magnum loads, and, the Holy Grail for me, 240 grain HP's at 1200 fps.

s

[Pappy John]

Here's my no dash 696 with the 200 gr Gold Dots. She is a sweetheart. :cool:
http://home.comcast.net/~jnicholas/696.JPG

[abelew]

.44 spl...I would get one if ammo was widely avaliable that took advanage of the large case capacity (wasnt down loaded for older/weaker guns that wouldnt tolerate the higher pressures)

[ZWolfgang]

While factory ammo is somewhat limited, there are some good factory loadings out there:

• ProLoad's 200 gr. Gold Dot load going 900 fps from a 4" tube,

• Winchester's 200 gr. Silvertip going 900 fps from a 6.5" tube,

• Federal's 200 gr. SWC going 900 fps from a 6.5" tube,

• Speer's 200 gr Gold Dot load going 875 fps from a 6" tube,

• Georgia Arm's 200 gr. Gold Dot load going 850 fps from ?" pistol

• Cor-Bon's 165 gr. JHP going 1150 from a ?" pistol

• Buffalo Bore's 180 gr. JHP going 1150 from a 6" tube,

• Buffalo Bore's 255 gr. Keith style SWC going 1000 from a 6" tube,

• Black Hills Keith load

And, of course, for the handloader, the .44 special is wonderful! The variety of .44 caliber bullets to choose from is very broad.

My choice of launchers for .44 special loads are:

• S&W 696 .44 spl.
• S&W 629 .44 mag.

[Richard]

This is one long running thread. I recently purchased a 3.5" 44 Special Third Model Hand Ejector for a shooter. Yes, the barrel was shortened, the sights reattached, and it was reblued. No, the grips aren't stock, they are from my M29-3. I bought for a shooter and it is great. Regards, Richard:D
http://www.freepichosting.com/Thumbs/421580737/38/1.jpg

[Ozzieman]

I contacted S&W about the availability of the MOD 21 in 44 sp.
It can be ordered with out the gold marks for only $850 MFRP.
I almost craped my pants 850 and thats without adjustable sights.
I want one, or I should have said
I wanted one.
Smith you can Kiss my,,,,,,, assume the worst

[trespass]

u betcha..the 44 sp is an excellent personal defense item...good inherent accuracy...and who wants to stand in front of that muzzle?....it is not a long range item...but it is a more than adequate choice and a man thus armed can feel secure in his choice.

[trespass]

handgun calibers tend to be faddish...I've seen a fair number come and go..and you fellas will see some fail also....the 10 mm may be the latest example of a fizzle (one that befuddled the FBI)...but the 44 special just keeps on ..like the 45 colt and 38 sw special it just LIVES....no worries about it going away for another 50 years anyway I'd guess...and even if...if you reload, and have some brass...a reloading manual...just keep trucking. and for a fine 44 special..I'd suggest you try and grab a 696 3 inch round butt S&W if you can...this is a fine little item in anybody's inventory....

[44mag@ucnsb.net]

it is not a long range item

If you believe the above statement, you should read some of Elmer Keith's books.. You will find that the .44 special is definately capable of long range accuracy. I believe what is more important, is that for a CCW gun long range accuracy is not a priority. Especially since most encounters happen within the 7 yard rule.

[Striker]

Richard,

Nice piece!!

Since it is a cut down reblue, ever consider havinging it round butted? Would make a nice gun better IMHO.

[shooter429]

My .44 is the 329PD loaded with 200 GDHPs (in town). It shoots and carries really nice and will easily match the ol'.45 in performance.

I think the .44 Special really is and am glad to see such interest from everyone here.

Shooter429

[smallshot]

I have a TR 21 in .44 spl. awaiting pickup from my smith, (trigger job, springs, cyl chamfer, etc;) and I have no qualms about carrying it in the mountains of Wyoming for self defence against ANY critters - 2 legged or 4. I have a range set up in my back yard, (rural Wyoming), and I personally enjoy the .44 spl as much or more than the .357 or the .45 acp. The round handily lends itself to reloading, (bullet availability, brass, info etc;), and is going through some popularity right now as far as information. As Mike Venturino says - It is a bit of a connoisseur's cartridge. Besides, who can argue with Elmer Keith when it comes to revolver shooting ?

[riverkeeper]

S&W 696 44 spl -- my favorite to hold and shoot.
S&W 629 44 mag -- wife's favorite to hold and shoot with 44 spl rounds.

S&W 642 38 spl -- is the current carry piece but used to carry the Special.

Own(ed) and shot others but this is the result.:cool:

[Idahoser]

I've been able to hold a 696, but it was out of my price range. If I see another one I'm gonna put more effort into it, this is looking more and more like something I'd rather have than want.

But in the meantime a Rossi 720, fluted, spurred, adjustable sights is what I got.

Naturally parts are not available, but while it runs, will a holster made for a 3" L-frame work properly? The gun shop guy said a K-frame was the right size, but it ain't. The trigger guard is not protected, feels like something could be wedged in there and pull the trigger too easy.

Thanks

[pesta2]

I have Taurus .44 Special Snubie hammerless. I thinking a big complaint of mine is lack of holsters for Taurus. You have to use one for Smith and Wesson that normally does not fit right. I have another Taurus .357 hammerless and had a hard time finding a holster for it. I was on out taking photos and carrying it concealed, bent over that the revolver fell out. Anyone know where to get holsters for a Tarsus hammerless?

[Long-Goodbye]

outside the realm of conceal-ability.isn't the .44 special a uni-tasker,ya know a thing that only does one thing well.A .44 mag can do what the .44 special does and some more things to boot.I know the overall gun is bigger and so I can see getting one because its a good way to get big-bore effect in a smaller package.I think I will get my Mom a bulldog 44.She handles a .45 auto very well but I am de-autoing our clan for the most part.

[Hook686]

... for the .44 Spl



180 gr. JPH 1150 fps for 543 ft. lbs. (3-1/4" S&W 396)
(personal defense load


http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#44spl



Their 185 grain .45 +P replicates these numbers.

So, yes the .44 Spl kinda does match up with the .45 ACP. However, the .44 Spl goes ahead with the 255 grain Keith type SWC compared to all .45 ACP loadings shown.

[cje1980]

My biggest problem with the 44Spl as a primary carry or defensive weapon is that there is not a large variety of ammo available for it. For a primary defense piece I don't want to have to order ammo online. I don't mind ordering online to get better deals on ammo but when TSHTF, you will want to be able to find lots of ammo locally. 44Spl makes sense as a home defense load if you already have a 44Magnum and simply want to use a lower power load. A dedicated 44Spl revolver to me makes no sense. Its like the worst of all worlds; not exactly small, low capacity, unknown performance and effectiveness, scarce ammo availability.

If you ask me the 44Spl is way behind the 45ACP in regards to effectiveness. There are lots of modern bullet designs available for the 45ACP that are designed to meet the IWBA specifications. There is almost no performance data available for the 44Spl so there is really no way to tell how a particular 44Spl load performs. The 44Spl also doesn't duplicate 45ACP performance. I've seen 200gr 44Spl loads fail to break even 800fps from a 4" barrel. Given the choice I would take an L-Frame 357 revolver with 7 shots over a 5 shot 44Spl the same size. You can load it with a reduced power 357 designed to meet IWBA spec. and have two more shots. My problem with the L-Frame 44Spl is that it is too big of a gun to only hold 5rds. In a revolver, the 44Spl has nothing over the 45Super for those trying to say that the 44Spl actually outpowers the 45ACP.

[Edward429451]

My biggest problem with the 44Spl as a primary carry or defensive weapon is that there is not a large variety of ammo available for it. For a primary defense piece I don't want to have to order ammo online. I don't mind ordering online to get better deals on ammo but when TSHTF, you will want to be able to find lots of ammo locally.

Sounds like you need to compare cost of reloading equipment vs how many boxes of premium SD ammo costs tp offset the price of the equipment! When TSHTF, any ammo will be premium ammo! It's all about placement and not wonderbullets anyway...

Yeah I load my 44 spec lower than 45acp, actually, they're about like standard 38 special loads but punch a bigger hole. I feel just as confident with them as any store bought ammo and about 3 bucks a box of 50 too.

[s.marner]

In 1975 I bought one of the first .44 bulldogs (3" bbl). It was my pocket gun in that configuration until 1993 when I decided to make it more the size of a pocket gun than it was. I had the barrel cut to 1 13/16" and had it Magnaported (no piece of cake to shoot before). Hammer spur was removed and the "hook" front sight was ramped. A few months ago I took several factory loads with a Chrony chronograph, here are the results (yes Buffalo Bore does not recommend their loads in the Bulldog, but I have seen reports of much hotter hadloads as a steady diet being fed through the Bulldog). Chronograph was 5 feet from the muzzle:

.44 SPECIAL BULLDOG 1 13/16" BBL

BUFFALO BORE 255GR KEITH LEAD
VEL(FPS)/FPE
836/396
832/392
823/384
819/380
816/377
808/369
806/368
793/356
817/378 = AVERAGE

BUFFALO BORE 180GR SJHP
VEL(FPS)/FPE
973/378
951/362
945/357
942/355
941/354
937/351
948/359 = AVERAGE

WINCHESTER SILVERTIP 200GR HP
VEL(FPS)/FPE
636/180
615/168
613/167
621/171 = AVERAGE

COR-BON DPX 200GR JHP
VEL(FPS)/FPE
627/174
618/169
582/150
609/165 = AVERAGE

CCI BLAZER GOLD DOT 200GR JHP
VEL(FPS)/FPE
700/217
696/215
670/199
689/211 =AVERAGE

GEORGIA ARMS 200GR JHP
VEL(FPS)/FPE
649/187
611/166
606/163
622/172 = AVERAGE

ATLANTA ARMS 240GR JACKETED SWC
VEL(FPS)/FPE
596/189
575/176
539/155
570/173 = AVERAGE

REMINGTON 246GR RNL
VEL(FPS)/FPE
590/190
580/183
578/182
583/186 = AVERAGE

REMINGTON 246GR RNL 6-MONTH CLOSED CAR HEAT TEST-DIRECT SUN
VEL(FPS)/FPE
571/178
560/171
555/168
539/159
556/169 = AVERAGE

[Pappy John]

Thanks for the data, but what is it about new guys and resurrecting long dead threads? It happens all the time.

[s.marner]

Sometimes I find useful information in old threads. So, regardless of a post having cobwebs on it, I thought someone could use the data. The chronology is way out-of-date, but the physics are not.

Take care,

The 1 13/16" Bulldog man.

[Edward429451]

Everyone keeps saying use the search function, use the search function...
and they do and this is what happens! I like readin the older threads

[s.marner]

I forgot to mention.... it weighs 21.1 oz with 246 gr RNL and is 6 3/16" overall length.

Magnaport helped, but it isn't something you'd take out and put 150 rounds through in an afternoon.

If you want it a little longer overall, in order to survive the recoil better, use the original Charter rubber grips.

I keep the 255 gr Buffalo Bore in it.

[Mr. Whimsy]

I did a search and this thread popped up as if new.

Imagine my surprise when I recognized my screen name from 10 years earlier. As one of the original posters, I thought it would be cool to update my position on the .44 Spl.

Under the name Grapeshot, I posted glowingly about my new S&W 696. Ended up selling it b/c the internet made me feel undergunned against high-cap. 9mm's.

Got a 396 Mountain Lite. Loved it, but couldn't deal with the funky sights. Had health problems, ended up selling it instead of just replacing Hi-Viz sights.

Got better and traded a Glock .40 for a 624. Loved it, but it wasn't tactical enough, so I had to sell it to buy a 4506, which is now also gone. Sold to buy a S&W 1911sc for carry. At least I was smart enough to keep that one.

Got to missing the 396 and revolvers, so ordered a 396 Night Guard that I will pick up Monday. Came here to research .44 Spl. loadings.

My 4th .44 Spl. - and I'm keeping this one no matter what crazy internet fad comes along and makes me feel helpless in the face of criminals. Obviously, the caliber is just too damned sweet to let go.

Sorry for the resurrection, but maybe someone can learn from my youthful infidelity to this grand ole gal.

[jibjab]

One of my favorites is this S&W 696 ND.,http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21729&d=1166241593