.22 LR vs. 32 ACP for Self-Defense

[Drakejake]

I am familiar with the literature on what ammo is best for self-defense (I have and carry from time to time 9 mm, 38 special, 357 mag, and 45 acp). But I was wondering which of the small calibres, .22 LR or 32 ACP, would be more effective against a bad guy. I know that a bigger slug would be first choice, but if you were carrying one of the small guns, which would you use for self-defence? The 32 is bigger, but the 22 LR has quite a bit of speed.

Drakejake

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I THINK, but am not sure that if the .22lr beats the velocity of the .32ACP from small handguns, the difference is not much. I could be wrong as I don't remember quoted figures and have not chronographed these two.

That said, I suspect that the .32 in today's expanding loads would be a bit more "potent" than the .22 as some of the .32 ACP JHPs do expand. The bullet's already a bit larger and heavier out the bbl. How much real world difference there truly is, I'm not sure. Placement is the key with either as it is in all handgun calibers, but especially the smaller ones.

I would likely choose the more-expensive-to-feed thirty-two over the rimfire for another reason: reliability. I have had more failures to fire with rimfire than centerfire ammunition. The number's not great, but it is more.

Best.

[Doc Hudson]

Drakejake,

I tried to post earlier, but my computer crashed, so here goes again.

We could probably argue and discuss which caliber is "better" until the cows go home, and not change anyone's mind. I won't make a judgment call on which is "better", all I can do is tell which I chose and why.

When faced with a choice of using a .22 LR or a .32 ACP as a carry gun, I chose to go with my Iver Johnson TP-22, for several reasons.

(1) My Iver Johnson was 100% reliable with a wide variety of .22 LR ammo, and my .32 ACP was not 100% reliable even with FMJ.

(2) The TP-22 had better accuracy than my .32 ACP. I could easily pop beer cans out to fifty yards with the little IJ. I was lucky to keep a magazine full in a head sized group at twenty-five yards with the .32 ACP.

(3) The TP-22 is far more concealable than my .32 ACP. The TP-22 is a cosmetic copy of the Walther THP (Lots of mechanical differences though) and the .32 ACP is the size of a Walther PP.

Maybe I am just lucky, for a change, but in over thirty years of shooting, I don't remember ever having a .22 LR cartridge fail to fire.

If you can find a vest-pocket sized .32 ACP that is fairly accurate and is 100% feed reliable, go for it! And if you can find an Iver Johnson TP-22, buy it, you will like it.

Doc Hudson

[Alex Johnson]

Given the wide variety of ammunition available for the .22 and the inexpensiveness of it the .22 has a decided advantage. It is true that a lot of the .22 pocket pistols are not reliable, but than again, a lot of .32's aren't either. The .22 rimfire is still probably more prone to a missfire than centerfire rounds are. I've shot competition for years, both rimfire and centerfire, to know that the .22 seems to have more missfires than the centerfire ever did. On the other hand that's thousands of .22's that I've shot and only a handfull have been defective, the odds of getting one bad one at the wrong time are probably worse than ever encountering a situation that you need them for in the first place. Shot placement, in my mind, is more important and unless your rich, shooting the .32's enough to get good with them, if you don't handload, is more difficult because of cost. If you have the money I'd probably go for the .32, it's more potent and probably a bit more reliable. On the other hand, poor graduate students like myself appreciate the low cost of the .22's.

[Big Al]

Look at a Kel-Tec P32.

7+1 capacity (or 8+1 with a mag extension), roughly the same size as a Jennings J-22. Extremely concealable, 6# trigger. In my opinion, the 32ACP would be more potent than any 22LR (and I'm a BIG 22LR fan), especially FMJ. Expect to pay more for ammo, naturally, but practice ammo can be had for around 75$/1000 - which isn't too bad compared to 9mm Luger and 9mm Makarov.

As far as stopping goes, IMHO the bigger the better. Technically a 220 Swift has more kinetic energy at the muzzle than a 45/70 Government, but which would you rather use to bring down a charging buffalo? The 32ACP isn't "Zeus's Lightningbolt" by any means, but I think the heavier bullet stands a better chance of hitting vitals than a relatively fragile 22LR bullet.

But those are just my personal thoughts - I'm no expert.

-AL-

[JerryM]

It is no contest between a .32 and .22. I have had many .22 cartridges fail to fire recently with good primer stikes.
Here are some sites which provide good info regarding performance of the >32 and various cartridges.
http://www.geocities.com/goldenloki2/gel.html
http://www.evanmarshall.com/
http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/
Jerry

[Runner]

Here is another vote for the .32 for personal defense. I restrict the .22 to target shooting and plinking.

[Blue Duck357]

If 32 acp were $9 for 500 rounds I'd pick it hands down. JMHO but I'd much rather have the gun I'd put a thousand rounds through (even if it was just plinking and such) as have a slightly more effective round.

I can not afford or even be inclined to do much more than shoot a box to test reliability with the .32 then stick it in pocket till I needed it. I think most folks if they are honest with themselves are in the same boat with me on this. I would rather have something I was very familiar and practiced with in stressful situation.

Regards, Blue Duck

[DFBonnett]

<Drakejake>
<Junior Member>

<The 32 is bigger, but the 22 LR has quite a bit of speed. >


You'll find that the 22LR has speed but out of a rifle barrel and not out of a short barrelled pocket pistol.
Also, one of the reasons for the development of the .25 was the lack of sufficient reliability of a rimfire cartridge. Reconsider the .32 but with ammo loaded to European spec, such as Fiocchi or Geco. They both feel discernibly hotter out of both my generic Spanish .32 and a CZ-50. The American .32 seems underloaded, I believe it is so as not to break those cheap potmetal pistols out there.
Winston Churchill's bodyguard carried a .32, but then he could snap a headshot at 50 feet reliably.

[jungleman]

I always thought that I would want a 22 in that situation, until I recently bought a Kel-tek P32 and after I made a few changes in the gun so it would feed reliably I would go with the 32. You can not beat 6.6 ounces of weight.
I have NEVER had a 22 misfire in all of my 51 years.

[Walt Sherrill]

The problem with the .22, in addition to potential unreliability -- and I've had a lot of that over the years shooting .22s -- is that in a personal defense situation you just about have to go for a eye or mouth shot.

While I've never had to use a gun in anger, I have shot a bit of IDPA competition, and I know its hard to hit a small target in a stressful situation -- especially if you or the target are moving.

While the .32 is no great earth-shaker, I wouldn't make a .22 my gun of choice for self-defense. (My personal carry gun is a small 9mm with Golden Sabers...)

(Note: I have two friends, one a pathologist, the second an EMT. Both of talked about seeing people shot in the head with .22s, where the round went under the skin, but did not penetrate the skull, and went half-way around the head, leaving the "victim" with little more than a sore head. Miss that eye socket shot, and what do you have? Someone with their hands around your throat.)

This will probably NOT dissuade anyone. I've found that folks fond of the .22 for self-defense are even more convinced of their choices, than are Glock or SIG shooters about their choice of weapons. And that's CONVINCED!

[Blue Duck357]

Walt if it makes you feel any better my carry gun is a model 65 loaded with .357's (policy) my home gun is 1991A1 loaded with 230 grain Gold dot's. :D

You make good points on the .22's shortcommnigs, of which thier are many. If you could practice equally sure you'd be better off with the .32 but like I said I'm in the market for one and am going to order the .22 just because I know I'll shoot it a lot more (never had a .22 I did not shoot much).

Gotta know the 22's limitations and make your choice, but like you said the guy may get hold of my throat, if so thats the perfect range to start puttin'em through the eye socket :)

Cheers, Blue Duck

[Redlg155]

If given a choice I would rather use the .32 ACP for defense. A slightly higher bullet weight would be beneficial, but I wouldn't expect expansion in either caliber from the smallest pistols available.

As for misfires, I do not believe that I have had a misfire due to bad ammo in the .22. I have had failures to fire due to a weak primer strike and the round always fired when rechambered. This is usually due to the numbers of rounds we typically fire through our .22 rifles without cleaning them. Shooting 100 to 500 rounds per session is easy to do, and often done.

I believe if this arguement were would you choose the .22 WMR or the .32 ACP, we might have more people tipping their hats to the .22 WMR.

Good Shooting
Red

[Oris]

Hey, Blue Duck, I'm one of a few who thinks that
.22LR is just fine for self-defence or whatever, if
a right choice of gun and ammo is considered.
Some .22 LR ammo can indeed misfire. Remington .22 ammo seems to have more problems than the other brands. Federal
and Winchester seems to be a bit better overall.
In my personal experience, CCI Stingers are totally reliable, nicely sealed against moisture by design and pack quite a bit of power, if I recall correctly, 38 gr. bullet is launched at 1,600 ft/sec. Shot a lot of them in Ruger MKII, never a misfire or any other problem.

[Tamara]

Given that with the new wave of micro-.32's, we're probably talking about guns of roughly similar size, I'd go with the stouter round.

Beretta 21A Bobcat .22LR 32gr CCI Stinger: 987fps/69fpe
Beretta 3032 Tomcat .32ACP 60gr Gold Dot: 827fps/91fpe

(Just for giggles, "Taylor Knockout Values" are 1.01 and 2.20, respectively, should you be called upon to make headshots on a charging elephant with these titans of the handgun world...;))

There are some guns even smaller than the new-generation micro-.32's (Jetfire, NAA Mini) that still have their specialized niches, but all-in-all I try and make sure that if I have to trust my life to a mouse (like my Tomcat) I try and make it the meanest mouse I can stash under the circumstances. :)

[RH Factor]

OK..here's my 2 cents.....I carry my Sig 239 40cal every day in either a shoulder holster or a IWB but that's because I wear a suit or sports coat every day. BUT when I go home and change, I have a Guardian .32 that goes into the back pocket of my jeans or dockers. My shirt is tucked in most of the time so I can't wear a IWB and be truly concealed. Yes I have a Phoenix HP-22 and have a great time with it plinking. But I like the feel and the look of my guardian when I need it for defense, and let's face it, if I'm pulling it for use I'll probably be very close to the bad guy.

[Red Label]

For over 8 years, the only self-defense weapon I had was a S&W 422. I was confident. Do I like having a .45 ACP now with 165 gr. Fed Hydrashoks for that purpose? Sure. But I wouldn't think twice if called upon to use my trusty .22 LR. I have also used thousands of CCI Stingers through my 22's with nary a misfire. They are also a little higher velocity than the average 22 catridge.

I always take the .22 to the range when I go with friends. Invariably, the .22 gets shot a lot more. Not just because it's cheaper. But because everyone enjoys shooting it more and is more accurate with it.

If I can't get 13 rounds to do the number on a BG, then I probably ain't gonna get the job done with much besides a 12 ga. And because there is so little recoil with the .22, then I can put that many rounds through it in the same amount of time I could do 7 in my .45.

So a .22 isn't the greatest choice for defense, but it'll do for me quite nicely...

[tlhelmer]

Sometimes these threads seem like a squad meeting (chaotic group discussion) and at the end I always want to ask... so what did we decide?
I carry a Beretta 22 only as a last resort. It not as good as my full size guns, but it is better than nothing.

[johnwill]

I carry a Keltec P32 as a last resort, since it's lighter than most .22 choices. I also feel a bit more confident in the ability of the .32ACP to accomplish the task if it's needed.

FWIW, I normally carry the Keltec P11 9mm, which is also light and concealable, but fires a round I have a lot more confidence in...

[Jody Hudson]

The Stinger tends to be more reliable and faster for more consistent expansion in my experience.

The Quick-Shok which is sold by Blount/CCI who also sells the Stinger -- has proven for me, in the same large batch of .22 pistols and rifles -- to be even more reliable, more accurate, much faster, and absolutely tremendous in expansion. The Quick-Shok is by far the best round I've ever shot into moist material.

NO ONE I've ever met can come close to believing the explosive nature of this little .22 Quick-Shok when it hits something moist or wet. It tends to penetrate four to eight inches and then expand into the three pre-fragmented pieces quite rapidly. If you search under Quick-Shock here you will find where I've gone on and on about our tests on this miraculous little bullet.

I also agree that the Iver Johnson TP-22 is in the top three for size, weight, dependability, accuracy, etc. I like the little Walther TPH better as it is smaller and lighter and more accurate. However the TPH is NOT reliable until it has gone back to the factory a few times for the quality control Walter is famous for NOT having. Now that the TPH is no longer made there is no place to send it back and no parts available as far as I know. When my remaining TPHs break, two are down now, I will have to return to the TP-22 again.

I have tried every small .32 made and for all the reasons that are important to me -- I choose a small .22 and Quick-Shocks. In fact I no longer buy any other ammo in .22 other than Quick-Shocks as nothing else I've ever found compares.

[ngzcaz]

Well... here it is June of 2020. I was curious given the new seemingly much more potent loads for the .32 whether anyone's mind has been swayed one way or the other ? After all, the .22 has gotten hotter as well !!

[5whiskey]

Well... here it is June of 2020. I was curious given the new seemingly much more potent loads for the .32 whether anyone's mind has been swayed one way or the other ? After all, the .22 has gotten hotter as well !!

Holy 20 year old zombie thread resurrection! I know you did it on purpose, and it is an interesting idea. Let’s weigh the advice given today versus that of 20 years ago.

The CC handgun market is significantly better today. In 2000, the Bersa Thunder in 380 was the typical advice given here and other forums on an affordable concealed carry handgun. Now most major manufacturers make a model in 9mm that is in the price and size range of the bersa. Heck many of them are smaller. .32 and .22lr have not benefitted as much from innovation. My opinion as to why is that most people would rather carry at least a .380, and so innovation has favored the larger calibers.

However, to continue an almost irrelevant discussion in today’s time (very few will choose either caliber because concealable 9mm handguns are available and affordable) I’ll play. Mostly because I’m considering a very small .32 pistol for pocket carry in shorts and t-shirt attire. I’m going with .32 given the choice between the two. Center Fire is inherently more reliable than rim fire. No one will argue against this. Also, the additional velocity from a .22 will not be much at all from pistol length barrels. .32 from a pistol length barrel still has slightly more k/e than .22lr from a rifle. And finally, reliable and concealable .32 acp firearm options are not much more expensive than .22lr equivalents. There is the cost of ammo, but .32 is still reasonably priced enough to practice to proficiency.

BTW in either option a lead slug is best, IMO.

[jar]

I'm one of those very few that does choose 32acp as my most often carried (with a 25acp in my pocket as well) handgun. In fact I own more 32acp pistols than both the 9mmKurz and 9mm Parabellum format combined.

The reason I choose 32acp are pretty simple; like with real estate it is location, Location, LOCATION. I find that I can quickly place more accurate repeated shots from my various 32acp pistols than I can with any of my 9mm varieties. I shoot only ball ammo in the 32acp format and the majority of the pistols I do carry in that caliber are at least a half century old.

[SIGSHR]

I have recently read the Ann Rule story "A Fever in the Heart" about two men-both fairly young and athletic-who were killed with a 22LR handgun, the 22LR is GOOD, the question is what is BETTER.

[Drm50]

I have had 3 Beretta 21 in 22lr in last couple years. I ran CCI mini mags in them and was really impressed with both function and accuracy. I have no use for anything that small but you could carry it in a shirt pocket. The only murder weapon I own is Walther PP 32 and good gun but heavy for what it is. SD gun doesn’t have to bullseye at 25yds. You can sight stories about 22s doing weird things but others sight 22s killing people. Certainly not the best man killer but will do in most cases.

[jonnyc]

I have often carried a KT P32 or a Beretta 71 in .22LR, depending on the year or situation. In neither case did I feel defenseless. With training, practice, and social awareness (not to mention distance and shot placement), both are as deadly as they need to be.

[jimku]

The problem with the .22, in addition to potential unreliability -- and I've had a lot of that over the years shooting .22s -- is that in a personal defense situation you just about have to go for a eye or mouth shot.
(Note: I have two friends, one a pathologist, the second an EMT. Both of talked about seeing people shot in the head with .22s, where the round went under the skin, but did not penetrate the skull, and went half-way around the head, leaving the "victim" with little more than a sore head. Miss that eye socket shot, and what do you have? Someone with their hands around your throat.)

I have to call B.S. on this. It is (or at least was) VERY common practice to dispatch cattle for butchering in slaughter houses with a singe shot to the brain with a snubby .22 pistol. I was raised on a cattle ranch where we butchered our own beef. I have personally done exactly that more times than I can probably count. In front between the eyes and from the top straight down. A cow's skull is quite thicker than that of a human. Without fail the cow dropped instantly like a sack of wet manure. So please do not try to feed me a line of smelly stuff about a .22 not penetrating someone's skull. I will not buy it.

I suppose that, give the exact and very unlikely angle, distance and round used (maybe a .22 short?), it is possible to have what that pathologist and EMT describe actually happening. But far from having his hands around your throat the dude would probably be reeling from a concussion, seeing little stars and standing in the yard trying to find the house.

That said, with my diminutive little PT22 or Beretta Bobcat I can easily put 9 rounds into a head shot at 7 yards in about one second. Also, I have never in my life had a .22 misfire that didn't go off the 2nd time it was fired ... and both of these little pistols allow you to fire again merely by pulling the trigger again. Even if I did buy into the line of stuff quoted, 9 rounds rapid fire at a head at 7 yards has a VERY high probability of at least ONE of them going into the mouth or an eye socket.

But it is not all about head shots. The name of the game in self-defense isn't to kill someone necessarily ... the goal is to convince them to go play somewhere else and leave you alone. 9 rounds into a perp's upper torso might not stop him instantly, but he will be wobbling on his pins wanting his mommy if not dropping at your feet, and he will most likely be dead before an ambulance can get there. And a hit to his heart will stop him just as fast as the same hit with a 357. If you have never hunted small game such as coyotes with a .22, you really have no idea the damage they can actually do.

[jimku]

Gotta know the 22's limitations and make your choice, but like you said the guy may get hold of my throat, if so thats the perfect range to start puttin'em through the eye socket :)

EXACTLY. A .22 pistol is for last-ditch, up close and personal. Schtick it in his ear and pull the trigger. :)

Actually, with today's laws, every caliber should be treated this way without exception. Unless your very life is threatened, AND THAT THREAT IS IMMINENT (meaning going to happen in the next second), if you draw that gun and so much as display it, you are committing assault with a deadly weapon and are most likely on your way to a few years vacationing in prison as well as being bankrupted by legal fees. 7 yards away is NOT IMMINENT. 3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Unless the S.O.B. is actually shooting at you or pointing a gun at you. And if he is pointing a gun at you, you are a certified idiot if you try to draw yours, you will be dead before you clear leather.

[Bill DeShivs]

Jimku- your experience shooting cows at the proper angle has nothing to do with SD head shots.
Bullets bouncing off human skulls is actually pretty common.
Unless the bullet is travelling at pretty close to a 90 degree angle to the skull, it's pretty easy for it to be deflected. Often times, bullets travel under the scalp, followling the skull and exit-looking like a through head shot.
This doesn't just happen with .22s. Locally this happened with a .38 Spl. hollow point back when the local PD still carried revolvers. I have read about it happening with .45 acp, too.

And as far as your legal advice, please don't quit your job to take up law.

[Mike38]

3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm no expert, but I would guess the average person, aged 20-30 years old, in average physical condition could close that 3 yard gap in one second. If that person has a knife, and your carry pistol is still holstered, you will be bleeding. You don't have to be bad breath close to be in imminent danger.

I can't draw my pistol and get off a good shot in less than one second, and I doubt 95% of the people reading this can either.

[jetinteriorguy]

Heck, I once had a 9mm FMJ bounce off a raccoons skull at close range. Out hunting with the hounds I had to climb a pine tree to get a good shot. At about 8-10 ft I hit it in the head and it fell dead out of the tree, or so I thought. Once on the ground I was examining the hide and holy crap, he came to life and was pretty ticked off. My partner dispatched him with a shot to the head up close from his 1022.

[seanc]

jimku:
3 yards away IS NOT IMMINENT. The threat is NOT IMMINENT unless he actually has hands on you AND YOU FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE. Unless the S.O.B. is actually shooting at you or pointing a gun at you. And if he is pointing a gun at you, you are a certified idiot if you try to draw yours, you will be dead before you clear leather.

Trying to keep this straight:
A) You're not in imminent threat unless you're in the grasp of someone that means to do you harm. Check!
B) If you're already in the grasp of someone who means to do you harm or they're already shooting at you, it's too late to use your gun in self defense. Check!
C) You're a certified idiot. Check!

How many times a year has a gun been used in self defense and not been fired?

How many prosecutions for assault with a deadly weapon and are most likely on your way to a few years vacationing in prison as well as being bankrupted by legal fees?

[zoo]

Three yards is not imminent? Apparently few people here have had someone coming at them with a knife or pipe.

[JERRYS.]

lots of false information on this thread.

[SHR970]

Area. 22= .0394" 32 = .0756" 32 wins

Muzzle velocity per same length barrels. Statistical tie.

Standard Bullet Weight: 22= 40 Gr. 32 = 71 Gr. (US) 32 wins by 75% advantage.

Reliability in ignition: Rimfire vs Center fire.... Centerfire wins.

So far the 32 ACP is ahead.

[ThomasT]

My only 32acp is a Walther/Manhurin PP made in 1957. I would pick it over a small 22 especially with my 100gr lead bullet reloads. But if I chose a 22 it would be loaded with Remington Yellow Jacket ammo.

Long ago I test a lot of different hollow point 22 ammo and the Yellow Jacket was hands down the best when it came to expansion. Way better than the CCI Mini Mag. The Mini Mag is fine from a longer barrel but never expanded from the short barrel of my IJ TP22. The Yellow Jacket always expanded.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1601511080

Out of stock right now but the latest Midway flyer had it advertised so I'm guessing they are expecting it back one day.

[flyer898]

I live in the desert where it is hot in the summer. The goal was to find the smallest size, effective handgun, that is also safe to carry with a loaded chamber. I anticipate pocket carry - that means speed will be a relative thing, but adding time to work the slide is not an option.
I considered revolvers. The smallest double action revolvers are much larger than the pistol I chose. I also considered a North American five-shot .22WMR and the High Standard D-101 .22WMR derringer. I decided against each because out of their very short barrels, I think velocity is too low. The low round capacity was also a factor.
None of the .22LR autos I considered are, in my opinion, safe to carry with a loaded chamber.
Then I got around to reading the copy of “Stopping Power” by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow that I bought at a close out price when Paladin Press closed its doors a few years ago. One of there articles reintroduced me to the Seecamp LW-32.
I was fortunate to find a low (four digit) serial number example at the right price. The Seecamp is a double-action only (DAO) .32 auto. DAO means the trigger pull for every shot is about seven pounds and the travel is about an inch; this is not a trigger that can be activated unintentionally.
The Seecamp was designed around the Winchester 60gr. Silvertip ammunition. I could not find any Silvertips for sale. The Seecamp website now lists other .32 acp self-defense ammunition as appropriate for the Seecamp. Interestingly it advises against FMJ ammo and that ammo is reputed to be unreliable in the Seecamp.
Another interesting note is the Seecamp is intended for (very) close-quarters use and does not have sights.
I tested mine with Hornady 60gr. Critical Defense loads and Speer 60gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points. I was not able to get my Labradar to consistently record velocities - I think due to lack of experience with the unit. Both loads functioned perfectly. The Speer loads are snappier and had more recoil. Neither load had uncomfortable recoil, especially as compared to my titanium cylinder S&W 337 loaded with +p or +p+ ammo - that little gun is brutal.
I shot the gun using one hand at targets representing a torso at distances between three yards and seven yards. I found that I was able to put all of the rounds into a torso out to seven yards by “point shooting.” The closer I was, the more centered the hits.
My little Seecamp, loaded with the Speer GDHP ammo, has earned a place among my concealed carry arms. It is not always the primary, but it is quite often along when I leave the house.

[tallball]

I would take 32acp over 22lr every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

22lr is for shooting squirrels

I won't even carry 32acp for SD, but at least it was created with SD in mind.

380 is as low as I'll go, and I much prefer 38 special or something larger

[1MoreFord]

I have both a NAA .22 and a .32 Seecamp.

The Seecamp is always carried before the NAA.

[Metric]

It makes precious little difference to me, as long as both are reliable and the bullet is good for a foot or so of penetration. Obviously there is more opportunity to buy undesirable ammo in .22LR, so proper selection takes more care.

The Israelis were famous for killing AK-wielding terrorists with their Beretta 22's. It's amazing how effective any weapon can be if you are committed to putting the bullets exactly where they need to go.

Yes, the .32 has a slight theoretical advantage, but the overwhelming factor in the equation is how well you can place the bullets.

Actual shooting stats bear this out -- it's hard to see much difference between any of the common handgun calibers. There is some, but it's not as obvious as you would think: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

[Aguila Blanca]

While I think it's unfortunate that someone resurrected a twenty year old thread, I held out hope that the discussion might go in the direction intended by the perpetrator of the resurrection. So far, there has been a lot of the typical caliber war opinionating, but a complete lack of any useful information.

Unless someone posts some actual data, such as comparative testing results and/or comparative photos of .22 and .32 shot into ballistics gel, this discussion is going to be reinterred.

[jimku]

I would not advise either for primary carry.
That said, I feel quite comfortable with just my Beretta 21A for last-ditch up close and personal self-defense. I have NEVER had a 22 rimfire fail to fire on the 2nd strike (and VERY few fail on the 1st strike) and the 21A affords a 2nd strike simply by pulling the trigger again. I have no doubt AT ALL that I can put 9 rounds in a perp's forehead at 7 yards with my 21A in under 2 seconds and I have no doubt AT ALL that he would drop like a sack of wet manure. My little Beretta lives in the right-hand pocket of my blue jeans in a pocket holster. It is always there. The only time I don't have it is if I don't have my pants on.

[jimku]

Unless someone posts some actual data, such as comparative testing results and/or comparative photos of .22 and .32 shot into ballistics gel, this discussion is going to be reinterred.
Do just a little research into how cattle have been routinely dispatched in slaughter houses. One shot to the top of the head with a stubby little .22. I was raised on a cattle ranch where we butchered our own beef. I have personally done exactly that more times than I can count ... both top of the head and front between the eyes. Every time they dropped like a rock. That is all the "empiricle data" I need. A cow's scull is MUCH heavier, thicker and tougher than any man's skull. Shoot some perp in the head at close range with a .22 and he will be trying to talk St. Peter into letting him in. Ballistic gel doesn't tell me a thing. I don't know about the 32, for all I know it might bounce off. But there is no doubt whatsoever about the close-range lethality of a .22 in my non-military mind.

According to this video the .32 penetrates better than the .22 ... so against a man's head at close range both would be lethal.
https://youtu.be/gFReDEVvosc

[jar]

Both 22 and 32acp have a long history of being calibers folk could bet their lives on.

[Scorch]

Just a generalization, but in general
* 25ACP has about the same energy as a 22LR
* 32 has twice the energy of a 22LR
* 380 has about 3X the energy of a 22LR
* 9X19 has about 4X the energy of a 22LR

In years past, the decision of which to carry had to do with the size of the pistol, but there are 9mms on the market today that are smaller than 32s a few decades ago. So the decision has become more complicated. How much recoil can you tolerate? How much weight do you want to put in your pocket? Rimfire cartridge or centerfire? And so on.

Myself. I can do math. That doesn't mean that bigger is always better, but I am in the bigger school. I used to carry a 32 ACP Walther PPK as a pocket gun years ago, so I have no problem with the smaller guns.

[Aguila Blanca]

Another reminder: This thread is about " .22 LR vs. 32 ACP for Self-Defense."

Please stay on topic. THIS discussion is not about .380 ACP, it is not about 9mm, it is not about hunting rifles of any caliber. The OP asked for comparisons of .22LR vs. .32 ACP.

[seanc]

Great points brought up by Scorch. The only .22LR pistols I would approach trusting for SD are not as compact as many of the reliable, quality, .32ACP pistols.

Centerfire vs. rimfire is the big wedge issue here. Centerfire wins the reliability test hands down. 100+ years of cartridge improvements in both calibers hasn't really changed that difference.

If you're comparing these 2 rounds, you've already made your decision on how much recoil you want/can work with and these are certainly comparable in that respect. It then comes down to what's going to go boom every time you pull the trigger.

[raimius]

Muzzle energy, momentum, and diameter are all important factors in terminal ballistics. .32ACP beats .22LR in all three of those. As to which is better, it is not really a debate. If you want to argue about .22LR being good enough, have at it, but terminal ballistics favors the .32ACP.

Jimku, please go get some training and education on self-defense laws and tactics. Your previous posts show several glaring falsehoods in legal standards and tactics.

[CDW4ME]

Lucky Gunner testing of 22 lr and 32 acp:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

Peruse those results for a load that penetrates 12'' and consistently expands, good luck.

I'd prefer to not bet my life on either, and don't / won't.

[JERRYS.]

many gel tests out there from mini guns in each caliber so you can make a comparable study. FMJ is the way to go in small caliber guns, especially with short bbls.

[jimku]

Jimku, please go get some training and education on self-defense laws and tactics. Your previous posts show several glaring falsehoods in legal standards and tactics.
I belong to USCCA. They defend shooters nation-wide. What I am saying is exactly what they have told me. They provide extensive education and training.
If I ever have to use my gun I will do three things: call 911, call USCCA, SHUT UP AND NOT SAY A WORD until their attorney arrives.
The primary goal in self-defense is to stop the attack ... not kill the dude.
One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge.
Senselessly perforating the attacker with 4 - 6 additional holes by emptying your revolver into him will most likely land you in a royal mess.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/
https://youtu.be/wLrZ_LR69Ho
https://youtu.be/exQN1X8lFAQ

[SHR970]

jimku wrote: One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge.
Funny that you would mention this since in the news today is a video of and up close and personal shooting involving a LEO. Not only do we have a body cam but we also have a home surveilance system perspective. Link to story / video (https://www.citizenfreepress.com/breaking/armed-perp-attacks-cop-perp-is-now-dead/)

Personally I was trained and qualified by a LAPD sergeant who taught us to Mozambique them. I was licensed for several years in Kali for on the job carry. As this video shows, firing once and hoping that you get that stop is not something I personally will bet my life on; especially when carrying a mouse gun. I will always rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Even if I did buy into the line of stuff quoted, 9 rounds rapid fire at a head at 7 yards has a VERY high probability of at least ONE of them going into the mouth or an eye socket.

vs.

One well-placed shot will usually accomplish that. Beyond that and you risk a murder charge. Senselessly perforating the attacker with 4 - 6 additional holes by emptying your revolver into him will most likely land you in a royal mess.

That strikes me as contradictory advice; but there are no shortage of well-documented gunfights that didn’t end even though there was a well-placed shot.

[Shadow9mm]

so, I am assuming you are talking a very short barreled mouse gun. It would have to be ball ammo for either (or perhaps the fancy lehigh penetrator stuff) due to inadequate penetration with ball let alone hollow point for both. With that being a given 32 is bigger, its centerfire, and it is not rimmed, and it is generally heavier. If I am going to choose a round that is going to under penetrate I would go 32.

[SHR970]

Shadow: If you look at the luckgunner link and look at the performance of ball out of a 32 Keltech you will find that under penetration is not a problem. Even for a couple flavors of HP you generally (not always) have adequate penetration as well as some expansion. Fiocchi Ball out of a Beretta 81 wil OVERpentrate per the FBI protocol*.

*FBI protocol: something that most keyboard warriors cite but have little to no understanding on WHY and what FOR. The most common citation involves only one of several parts of the protocol.

[jimku]

Funny that you would mention this since in the news today is a video of and up close and personal shooting involving a LEO. Not only do we have a body cam but we also have a home surveilance system perspective. Link to story / video (https://www.citizenfreepress.com/breaking/armed-perp-attacks-cop-perp-is-now-dead/)

Personally I was trained and qualified by a LAPD sergeant who taught us to Mozambique them. I was licensed for several years in Kali for on the job carry. As this video shows, firing once and hoping that you get that stop is not something I personally will bet my life on; especially when carrying a mouse gun. I will always rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Civilians are not police officers. An officer has to apprehend the culprit. All we civilians are actually legally OK to do in self-defense is to stop the attack. Completely different requirements and completely different consequences. And if I am judged by 12 and found guilty of murder, or even simply judged by 12 and bankrupted by legal fees, my life will be ruined and over and I might as well be carried by 6 and very well might end up taking my own life.

[jimku]

vs.



That strikes me as contradictory advice; but there are no shortage of well-documented gunfights that didn’t end even though there was a well-placed shot.
Not contradictory at all ... two DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

One subject: the statement that a little 22 mouse gun can't be lethal unless you hit the bad guy in the eyeball. A completely absurd statement, BUT 9 rounds rapid fire in the face WILL most likely accomplish that.

Next, totally unrelated subject: That one shot is usually all that is required to stop a fight. If I had meant always I would have said always.

[SHR970]

jimku wroteAll we civilians are actually legally OK to do in self-defense is to stop the attack.

Did you actually WATCH the video? He made full contact with the officer after 4-5 rounds discharged which required a TAP, RACK, and FIRE drill and a mag dump to STOP the attack.

I don't want to be an Adam Henry but you need to take a critical look at that video once again because she was in full contact with the subject even while retreating and firing. If you can't see it, you are BLIND. He took a full (more than 10 round ) mag to STOP.

[jimku]

Did you actually WATCH the video? He made full contact with the officer after 4-5 rounds discharged which required a TAP, RACK, and FIRE drill and a mag dump to STOP the attack.

I don't want to be an Adam Henry but you need to take a critical look at that video once again because she was in full contact with the subject even while retreating and firing. If you can't see it, you are BLIND. He took a full (more than 10 round ) mag to STOP.
OK, I watched the video ... five times. And I have to say ... I can't help it if the cop was a lousy shot and went for all gut shots or "center body mass" in "spray and pray" fashion. Sorry. But that said, yes if the perp has a weapon in his hand you have to keep firiing until he can no longer raise that weapon. But ONE well-placed shot to the HEAD would have STOPPED it in an instant, and all it would have taken in that particular instance given the range and movement was just a little more deliberate better-aimed fire. And no, at no time was there any full contact ... the perp never even touched her or even got within reach of her. And yes, I can understand panic and adrenalin ... but that said, keeping a calm, level head and compete presence of mind is paramount, especially for we civilians.

And no, I don't think you are an Adam Henry. :) I had to look that one up ... thanks for the education. I am not trying to be one either. I deeply respect our police officers and support them 100%, especially given current events, and I am glad the officer survived!

I did have to pull a gun once ... against five thugs intent on dragging a young lady from her car and raping her. I had a S&W model 19 and the five of them just kept deliberately walking towards me. They were only about 5 feet away and I was just starting to squeeze the trigger on the ring leader when I heard a police siren and they turned and beat feet. The patrolman pulled into the parking lot and didn't even take my gun. He told me he was sorry he stopped me 'cause otherwise I might have shot the Adam Henrys and saved the city on-going problems because he knew who they were and all five of them were Class-A Certified #1 Adam Henrys constantly hurting people.

[Bill DeShivs]

Jimku- please tell us how many self defense shootings YOU have been involved in.
Were you able to make a head shot?

[artoo]

I've been known to carry the .32 ACP pistol as a main gun and a .22lrf pocket pistol as the second gun.

The reasons for this are simple.

In the 90 + degree heat and humidity I dress for the weather.

Whether it is a Beretta 81, a Taurus 732, or Taurus PLY-22 things are covered.

I do not care what others think of this as what works for me may well not work for others. What works for you, fine. I go with what works for me.

Due to an uptick in violence around here though I've upgraded to a Taurus G2C or a G2S in 9x19 and carry spare ammo. The back up gun is still a .32 ACP pistol.

Some carry a spare gun or ammo ( good ideas) and some do not. Do what works for you. Just having a gun is the thing. If it fits your needs then, fine. No problem.

[jimku]

Jimku- please tell us how many self defense shootings YOU have been involved in.
Were you able to make a head shot?
I just did, directly above, and yes, it would have been five head shots if I had been forced to shoot. The only reason I wasn't was because of my level head and absolute confidence that I could have put all five of them down. Most people would have fired much sooner. It's pretty hard to miss at 5 - 10 feet ... that is if you have enough self-control to keep from getting rattled. But whether or not I can or could have made head shots is totally irrelevant to the fact that a single head shot will stop an attacker instantly. That is firmly in the "Well, DUH" category. :) So, if you can't consistently make a quick head shot at 7 yards or so, it might just behoove you to practice until you can. It just might save your life. And while you're at it, you might practice head-size targets at that distance that are moving side to side. I do. You do whatever floats your boat.

[jetinteriorguy]

Well after watching that video I don’t think there is any question that woman wasn’t cool and in control. To clear a malfunction and shoot him that many times to put him down was clearly a product of good training and a cool head. And no, trying for a head shot and risking a miss sending stray bullets all over a residential neighborhood is not a good idea, and most likely not part of her training I would guess.

[Aguila Blanca]

This discussion has gone completely off the rails at this point. We have gone from discussing the relative merits of two specific calibers of handgun round (the original question) to debating how many shots we are legally allowed to take, and whether or not it's better to take a head shot than to aim for center-of-mass.

The original question has been answered, with links to objective data to support the answer.

Closed.