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Rainbow Six
June 7, 2000, 07:59 AM
During firearms week in police academy we had an instructor that carried a Glock G17 9mm. He was the first person I ever saw shoot a pistol at 100 yards. He didn't use targets, he shot the 2" wide steel target post and would make it "clank" on at least 8 out of ten shots.

He let us have a go at the steel post with our pistols during a break and it didn't take long to start ringing the post fairly consistently with my Glock G22. I started shooting my Glock on the 100 yard range locally and found that the concentration required really helped me gain valuable trigger control with my pistol.

I know a Glock isn't target accurate at 100 yards and there are many pistols that would be more suited to this type shooting. I also know that, in reality, most handgun calibers would be very ineffective at that distance. However, the experience and trigger control was a definite plus for me and my 3-25 yard shooting improved big time.

Has anyone else tried 50-100 yard pistol shooting and found it to improve their shooting at combat distances? Just curious. If you haven't tried this, you should do it at least once.

With my Glock G22 and 180gr FMJ loads I had to hold the top of the rear sight level with the bottom of the front sight blade. I think that would be a good baseline for most semi-auto pistols for anyone trying it for the first time. BTW, leave the 3-5" target circles in your bag and shoot to "hit paper", or even the right area of dirt the first time you shoot at this distance. :D

Oh, a barricade rest position is helpful too. I used sand bags occasionally too, just so I could concentrate more on trigger control.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...

fal308
June 7, 2000, 08:32 AM
I occassionally shoot my 1911s at that distance. I can consistantly hit two liter soda bottles filled with water once I get dialed in (usually only a couple of shots). I've shot my 1911s enough to know where they'll hit so sometimes I'm hitting from the first shot :cool:

jeffer
June 7, 2000, 09:01 AM
When my dad was teaching me to shoot he told me to practice at long range.
He was right. When I got to the point where I could hit targets at 100 yards the closer shots were easy.----------Thanks Dad.

Jamie Young
June 7, 2000, 09:18 AM
Same here i took my Colt 1991A1 Wondering if it was capable of hitting paper at 100yds and i did it. I don't have much trouble hitting paper at a 100yds once i figure out how high i have to aim. Usually about 2 1/2-3 feet above the target depending on the quality of ammo. I think its kinda pointless to try and get any kind of groups with a 1911 at 100yds but i think the .45 230gr bullet still holds up alot better than any 9mm bullet at that distance. A lot of people bicker about how certain bullets are the same especially the 9mm being fast and the heavy slow 45acp but not once you get past 25yds or so not anymore. If you know what your bullet is doing at 50-100yds with bullet drop your 45 can still be pretty effective. Bigger bullets hold up better at longer distances as far as punch. You just have to know what your bullet is doing.

Mike Irwin
June 7, 2000, 09:59 AM
Yep. I've done it.

I REALLY shocked a group of people one day at my old range. I took a .38 snub nose and hit a 10" swinging gong at 100 yards with 3 out of 5 shots.

Most thought that it couldn't even get a bullet that far.

What I didn't tell them was that I knew where to aim because I had been shooting at the thing a week or two earlier. :)

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

C.R.Sam
June 7, 2000, 10:05 AM
Try your carry gun on a silhouette range. 200 meter clangers are a hoot. Seems to take VERY hot .357mag and up to knock em down but still a lot of fun with lesser ctgs.

If I remember correctly, three gun slow fire targets were at 75 yds.

Come to think of it, any shooting is a hoot.

Sam

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited June 07, 2000).]

plinker2
June 7, 2000, 10:38 AM
Yes, I have a Ruger 22/45 bull barrel and I shoot it at a 100 yard metal post regularly. I love to hear the "THUNK".

You are right, most people are amazed that you can hit that well with a little semi-auto. --chirokid--

LawDog
June 7, 2000, 10:39 AM
I read an article in which Elmer Keith described using a .44 magnum to hit an outhouse at several hundred yards. Not to be outdone :D I promptly grabbed up a four-inch *&* .357 and tried it.

Got to where I could consistently hit a paint bucket at a hundred yards, but never tried any further--the target was just too darn small. :D

LawDog

James E
June 7, 2000, 11:07 AM
OOOH...my head this morning. If you think my eyes look bad...you should see them from this side of the eyeballs. Rainbow six, an interesting topic. I use to shoot all the time at 100 yd. targets. I was using the .44 APC shooting up a motorcycle hill climb that was quite steep at a water filled liter bottle. (plastic} Had just walked up that damn hill and set the target in place when 2 jokers showed up with scoped deer rifles.
We were on a fire road on the side of a mt. I hadn't even fired a shot yet and they were blazing away at my target without asking. Not one hit did they get. Finally got a clip in the Randall and layed my forearms across the cab of our pickup. First shot was about a foot from the bottle, second shot had the hold over range adjusted and POP went the liter bottle. Those guys jaws dropped down to their chest. Too embarresed to say anything they left shortly thereafter. In my younger days when eyeballs were good I shot .44 mag and even .22 pistols at 100 yd. targets all the time. Sometimes putting up white paper plates on the back stops. They wern't two inch groups but acceptable for defense purposes.

Jim

Jim

C.R.Sam
June 7, 2000, 11:29 AM
Jim...That is sooo cool........Sam

Kiffster
June 7, 2000, 12:59 PM
Sorry R6, 100 yards with a Glock can't be done. Glocks are only good for combat accuracy. :D :D :D

I'm going to try it at the range this Thursday. I've been going a couple times a week to break in the new toy,(or more precisely to break in myself) and needed something new for variety.

Kiffster

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Sig 229 .40 - When you care enough to shoot the very best!

beemerb
June 7, 2000, 01:07 PM
About 20 yrs ago when the Ar-15 shorty came out my brother got one.Me being me I asked him what he was going to do with and that I could outdo him with model 19-4in 357.Found a piece of tin about 2ft by 3 ft and and paced back 325 paces(about 300yards for me)Useing 158 lswc with 5 grs of unq. behind them for about 1050 fps I got 5 out of 6 in the piece of tin with first one about 6 feet low.Never unerestimate a revolver or a 357 mag.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

beemerb
June 7, 2000, 01:12 PM
Copied from different thread.Post by C.R.SamFodder for ol farts.
Wheel gun accuracy.
.44 S+W Russian test.
Diameter of circle ENCLOSING group of ten shots.
256gr bullet.
200 yard.....15"
100 yard.....6"
50 yard.....1.5"....10 shot one hole?
20 yard.....1.0"....10 shot one hole.
Gun..S+W .44 Military, 6.5" bbl.
These are outside to outside measurements. How far we have not come in a hundred years.



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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

Alex Johnson
June 7, 2000, 01:40 PM
Long range pistol shooting isn't all that difficult with practice. A few days ago I was shooting at a 14" steel gong at our backyard 200 yard range with a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 magnum. Using hot handloads and a two hand hold while sitting I was getting fairly consistent hits on the plate. The trick is to know where the bullets are dropping, something that can be seen fairly well on an open field where are targets are.

James E
June 7, 2000, 01:48 PM
Beemerb:

Was that .44 Russian stuff done in the late 19th century, or early 20th century. I've heard of ol Farts called the .44 Specialist.

Jim

birdman
June 7, 2000, 02:23 PM
Do long range (200 yd) pistol shooting all the time. My method is to hold so that the target is on top of my front sight and then instead of having the front sight level with the back ---- have a good portion of the front sight over the back. With a little practice you learn how much at different ranges. I like to do this to find out if the windage is correct when sighting in. You'll know in a hurry where you're hitting if you have a dirt embankment to shoot against with a large caliber handgun. regards, birdman

3 gun
June 7, 2000, 02:27 PM
IHMSA. Give it a try. 25m chickens,50m pig,75m turkey,100m rams;2 sets of 5 at each range,40 shots total for a round the rest of the box can be used as sighters. I shoot field pistol class = standing, iron sights with a 6" GP100. Try it you'll like it.

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Be careful what you ask for..You may get it.

Destructo6
June 7, 2000, 02:53 PM
Alright, 300 yards (as claimed by the rangemaster), 12 inch plate (guessing because I don't want to walk out there, up hill), with a Makarov. I won't claim to have hit it every time or even the vast majority of the time, but I was able to stay very close to it and hit it pretty regularly. I was just impressed to get near it. Aligned the top of the rear sight with the top-front of the slide.

The guys next to me were having trouble staying on target with their AR's at <50 yards.

buzz_knox
June 7, 2000, 03:05 PM
My brother in law hit a target at 115 yards with a Pony .380. Okay, the target was a dirt berm but still, he hit it!

C.R.Sam
June 7, 2000, 05:28 PM
James E....That .44 Russian stuff came out of Pistol and Revolver Shooting by A.L.A.Himmelwright, pub 1904. No date given for the test. The .44 Russion shorter than the .44 special.

My earlier ref to sihlouette is from 70s when the turkey was at 150 and the ram at 200. Turkey was a mutha to knock down with .357. Just clangin it was a feel good.

Sam

Ron Ankeny
June 7, 2000, 05:51 PM
I have shot thousands of rounds in practice and competition at 50 yards. I have also shot IHMSA.

Hitting a target 2 inches wide at 100 yards requires two minute of angle accuracy or think of it as 1 inch at 50 yards. The best makers of 1911 type pistols will only guarantee 1.5 inches. A two moa stock Glock...hmmm.

All I can say is your firearms instructor has perhaps one of the most accurate Glock pistols evey made and he is perhaps one of the best shots who ever lived.

Erik
June 7, 2000, 06:04 PM
I had a pistol instructor who was becoming frustrated with some of the other students. They just weren't responding. So at a comment from one of them about how far back we where (15 yards), he told everyone to stop, we packed up our stuff, and marched across the street to the 100 yard range. I was amazed at how easy it was, once you figured out the hold over. More importantly, so were the students having trouble. By the time we got back to the pistol range, everyone was on target- at all ranges. :)

riddleofsteel
June 7, 2000, 06:20 PM
i lived in a trailer on a large farm many years ago. i had a rifle/pistol range for 20, 50, 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards all with sand bullet traps, target stands, gongs and spinners for rifles and handguns. i had the help of a large group of friends to maintain it even if a lot of them never showed up on work days. we all shot at the range and our weapons ranged from snub nose revolvers to old Colts, to TC Contenders to AK's to scoped rifles.

over years of shooting at known distances i got to where i could hit spinners and gongs at outrageous distances. 100 and 200 yard shots were common to ring a 2 ft. gong with a four inch 681 .357 or a .45 Colt 1911. father than that and there were hits and there were misses. LOL

one afternoon after a long session of sighting in deer rifles from bench rest and sandbags i suggested we shoot at 100 and 200 yard targets off hand with out support or from a deer stand about 2 ft. off the ground to test our rifles under more realistic conditions. out of 8 guys only 2 could put rounds regularly in the black at 200 yards. only 4 guys at 100 yards. "Boy we see who needs the off hand practice!" i said. one of the guys came back and said "Well big guy lets see you hit the 200 yard target or gong 5 times in a row if you are so good!" i stepped up to the line with my rifle and in a moment of inspiration i sat my rifle down and drew my 4 inch 681 in .357. firing single action i hit the black in a standard rifle target 2 times, the 2 ft. gong twice and the spinner (4 inch circle) 1 time. on the sixth shot sweat was beginning to bead up on my forehead the pressure was on. i cocked the hammer and aimed. then i relaxed the trigger and said " I think thats five."
later that week by myself i tried the same shots and hit only 3 out of six. still that's 200 yards we are talking about!

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.

jetrecbn1
June 7, 2000, 06:36 PM
Was watching American Shooter and the guy hit an egg at 100yards with a 1911 Kimber. I got to get one of those Kimbers so I can shoot eggs at 5 yards. The ranges I go to are only 25 yards max. Hey do you shooters feel as I do? I shoot 3d(cans) better than paper. It seems as if my eyes picks up on the 3d image a lot better. Than again my eye sight is not sharp.

DerGlockenpooper
June 7, 2000, 07:07 PM
Gee, and I thought Glocks were inaccurate??? ;)
NOPE, some people just are not skilled enough to shoot a Glock to it's potential.

On multiple occasions, by seperate parties, in Ransom rests or with optics from a bench, stock Glocks have been shown to consistently print just a hair over 1 inch groups at 50 yards. So, yes, a stock Glock can easily be said to have 2 or 3 moa performance if the shooter does his part (2-3 inch groups at 100 yards). Glocks are not innaccurate, some people just can't shoot them and refuse to learn, and thereby they choose to accept the dogma that they are supposedly "inaccurate". It's a convenient excuse for someone that is not skilled enough to shoot them and has no interest in trying.


I shoot my Glock 31 to 100 and 200 yards quite frequently. I also shoot my other Glocks to that range, but find the fast .357 to give the best performance at that range. I don't have to hold over at all at 100 yards with the zippy .357 Sig.
I very rarely miss a one gallon milk jug at 100 yards and keep real close to it or hit it at 200 yards. I hit a steel human torso sized silouette quite easily and consistently at 200 yards. I only miss the torso at 200 yards if I sneeze or something during the shot ;)
I hunt with my Glock 31, so being able to shoot that well is a must. I never shoot from a rest or a bench, I just like to shoot standing on my own two feet with open sights.



Ps- riddleofsteel - that is a pretty cool story on your part ;)



[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited June 07, 2000).]

DerGlockenpooper
June 7, 2000, 07:17 PM
I tend to shoot 3d targets better too. Even if they are just steel, they are still reactive and "3d". I hate shooting paper. I just get bored. But, I do it anyway just to keep myself honest.


Here is another cool one: what about clay pigeons? In the air? With a handgun? Yeah, sounds insane, but try it sometime, it is not impossible.

My friend was shooting clay for the first time. Neither one of us had ever shot a clay pigeon out of the air before because we were just getting into shotguns. We had some orange pigeons and a hand launcher. I was throwing them for him and he was shooting them. He was hitting about half of the time. We got to the last clay pigeon and I said "I want to try something....have you ever heard of anyone shooting one of these out of the air with a handgun?" His jaw dropped, as the idea was absurd but just about crazy and fun enough to try.
I had him throw the last clay pigeon while I had my stock Glock 21 in low ready. Once it was in the air, I shot once at it and apparently missed, so I got one more shot as it descended and I hit it out of the air!
It did not explode as if it were hit by birdshot, but we both clearly saw a hole open up in the center and the clay fragmented in the air before it hit the ground. That was fun. Only did it once, and unfortunately it was our last clay pigeon so I never tried it since. My friend was pretty disgusted because he was not shooting much better with his 12 guage ;)
If you think this sounds impossible, keep in mind that the range is not that far when you are shooting clay pigeons from a thrower. The only tough part is that it is moving fast and it is not a very big target.







[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited June 07, 2000).]

mept
June 7, 2000, 09:48 PM
I went fishing the other day, caught one that was so damn big... wait, wrong forum.
I thought I was doing well when I walked out 45 yards to a half gallon milk jug. I new I hit it with the 1st or 2nd shot because the koolaid ran out. When I got their I counted 4 holes from 5 shots, I couldn't believe it. How in the world do you even see a 2" post at 100 yds??? I'll have to try some 50-100 yds shooting next time out it sounds like fun for a change of pace.

Ron Ankeny
June 7, 2000, 10:59 PM
I need to find my hip boots or a manure spreader.

I throw 1/2 inch washers in the air and shoot through the hole with my .45 from the surrender position all day long. Oh yeah, I also start the timer between the time I toss the washer and draw the pistol. Usually get the shot off in about .3 seconds.

Rainbow Six
June 7, 2000, 11:17 PM
Ron,

I knew there would be at least one doubter. Oh well, I saw it with my own eyes, believe it or not. I'd try to convince you that I'm being honest but, in reality, your opinion on this matter means nothing to me. :)

To all,

I didn't really expect this many replies from people who have actually done that much shooting past 25, or maybe 50 yds. Sounds like some of you take it on out there more than just occasionally.

I also noticed a couple of posts that mentioned short range accuracy improvements after doing some long range work. That's why I brought it up. There are occasional posts that inquire about drills and techniques that increase shooting skills. I think that occasional long range pistol shooting really does improve weapon and trigger control and concentration on the sights instead of the target.

Thanks for the replies.

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...

C.R.Sam
June 7, 2000, 11:27 PM
Ed McGiveren(sp?) taught quite a few GIs to do the airborne target with pistol thing. Seemed to get em from big cans down to small clay balls pretty quickly. He was adamant about acquiring the sights instead of point shooting. He could could do it darn near all the time with any of his guns or a student's gun.

Bloody hard to find a safe place to shoot into the air with anything but a shotgun.

Sam

Rainbow Six
June 7, 2000, 11:32 PM
Awwwww, come on Sam! There's no way Ron could do that and if he can't noone can!! :D

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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...

Art Eatman
June 8, 2000, 12:35 AM
Practice, practice, practice! Back during the Vietnam fracas, the Army started teaching point-shooting at Ft. Benning, with BB guns. A high percentage of the guys were reported to be able to hit aspirin at ten feet; some could regularly hit BBs.

A friend of mine thinks a minimum of 100 rounds a week of hot .44 Mag is a minimum. He brought a Raging Bull out here, and shot on my 185-yard hanging plate. I didn't count, but he regularly hit.

Which is why the Good Lord invented .22 rifles and pistols: Sights and trigger, sights and trigger. "The harder I worked, the luckier I got" holds true for most everything.

:), Art

riddleofsteel
June 8, 2000, 04:05 AM
much of this long range handgunning is leaving behind the mindset that every shoot has to hit. you will miss way maore than you hit for a long time. second is that most of my long distance shooting is at known distances, making holdover easy. third is that on some targets like a gong or post windage is the main consideration. once you home in the bullet has quite a bit of area to fall into and still hit the target. of course that goes back to known distance. with a hand gun it is usually easier to hold windage than it is to hold the barrel level, try it sighting on a distant object.
finally most GREAT long shots are a combo of luck and constant practice and being familar with a particular gun and load combo. oh yeah did i mention a butt load of luck.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.

Ron Ankeny
June 8, 2000, 10:30 PM
Come on guys lighten up. All I am saying is that for a guy to put 8 out of ten shots into a 2 inch circle with a stock Glock pistol, standing with out support at 100 yards is pretty darn incredible. Yeah, I can't do it. And I don't think any of you can either.

In fact, I would be willing to wager that the guy who pulled this off can't repeat the performance.

As for long range shooting, I really do believe all Action Pistol events should have some 35-50 yard targets. I for one would welcome some pepper poppers or 8" plates at fifty yards in our local IPSC and steel matches.

P.S.

You don't need to try to convince me that your training officer did what you say and I do believe you. I am just saying it ain't normal. As for my opinion, you know what they say about opinions... :)


[This message has been edited by Ron Ankeny (edited June 08, 2000).]

sks
June 8, 2000, 10:57 PM
I watched Tom Knapp (shoots for HK Benelli) do it in Connecticut at 100 yds with a stock HK 9mm. At least he siad it was stock.

He also shot aspirins out of the air with a .22 rifle as well as multiple hits on a golf ball while in flight. He would call the direction before shooting and then shoot the ball in that direction.

I'm just glad to hit paper!

Rainbow Six
June 9, 2000, 05:19 PM
Ron,

The last line of my first post should have been part of the first paragraph. My mistake. I forgot to include it and I simply tacked it on the end of the post instead of editing the first paragraph. He used a 6' high 4 X 4 post for barricade rest. He didn't do it offhand.

Also, FWIW, he wasn't shooting a 2" circle, he was shooting a 2" wide approximately 36" tall steel post. He only had 2" leeway on windage but he had around 36" of elevation margin of error. Still not very easy, but much easier than a 2" circle. The barricade rest makes the windage control much easier.



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The Glock freak formerly known as Chris...

Banzai
June 9, 2000, 05:46 PM
Well, I shoot military pistol at 50 and 25 yards. That's a target grade mil spec .45. I'm not all that good, but some of the best regularly have to protest because you can't tell just how many holes there are on their targets. It's usually one, small, ragged hole.
Seems like some of you here that posted believe that it's all about luck, or that these guys get a few good hits, then shoot the rest into the berm!!! NOT
If you're a doubter, then challenge yourself, put your money where your mouth is, and actually TRY to hit a gong or plate at 100+ yards. If you don't have fun at least trying, then you've got a way too serious outlook on life. Lighten up and have fun for once :)

As to those of you who have been there/done that, it seems that we all have noticed some improvement in our short range accuracy as well. Must be that greater awareness of the basics at long range that help reinforce it all.

Keep on shooting 'till you're ass deep in brass, no matter the range!

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
Wake up and realize that you have the moral imperative of action..!!!

Ron Ankeny
June 9, 2000, 09:36 PM
LOL, hey guys, I am just the doubting Thomas in the crowd. Really it's no big deal. BTW, I have put my money where my mouth is. I posted several months ago about a fun little side match we used to have at the now defunct National Shooters League. We shot with open sighted handguns at a zerox copy of a $100.00 bill offhand at 100 yards. Each contestant shot six rounds at 100 yards. We then counted the most hits on the hundred dollar bill then to break ties we counted the hits on the paper. The winner got fifty bucks for each hit on the paper and a hundred bucks for each hit on the bill. Easy way to pick up $600.00.

This particular shoot (not the side match) was a big deal in it's time (it was on ESPN several years running) and it attracted some decent shooters from PPC (like national champions), some pretty fair bullseye shooters (like Frank Green), and some of the coaches who didn't need to worry about amature standing even came up from the Olympic Training Center. We even had some international teams from places like Australia and some guys stopped by who were just back from the Pan Am games. These guys were world class shooters.

The best I ever did was four hits on the $100.00 bill and two more on the paper (8.5 by 11). The winner usually had five hits on the bill and one on the paper just off the bill. No one ever put six rounds on the bill.

My shorts aren't in a knot and I am not uptight and I sure do know how to enjoy myself when I shoot. I just have this pet peeve over all of the myths about these shooters who can hit golf balls 9 out of ten times at 100 yards and guys who can hit 75 clay birds straight on a berm at 100 yards, and so on. No big deal, it's just my hang up. I reserve the right to shake my head and be skeptical.

For what it's worth, in his book Brian Enos suggests ending every shooting session shooting for accuracy and I think he means shooting for accuracy at 25 yards or more. It works.

When I end a session I shoot a two or three inch group at 25 yards because it helps to maintain confidence and it makes all of the bad shots at 10 yards become a blur in history. By all means, don't limit your shooting to close targets.

[This message has been edited by Ron Ankeny (edited June 09, 2000).]