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10851Man
January 27, 2013, 04:41 PM
Love Civil War History and have been looking at all the 'then & now' images online. I recall a photo of an unknown solider, wearing red pants, that was recently identified.

I wonder if this solider was ever identified:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/cwpcam/cw00171.jpg

I have often wondered the same thing about the newsreel footage of the U.S. soldier that dropped during the invasion of Normandy...:(

Hawg Haggen
January 27, 2013, 05:18 PM
Don't think so. Confederate sharpshooter at Devils Den, Gettysburg Pa. IIRC it was surmised the Springfield wasn't his but was a prop the photographer scrounged. It is thought he was actually using a Whitworth. All battlefield pics were staged by the photographers.

Hellgate
January 27, 2013, 07:06 PM
IIRC he was a rebel sharpshooter in Devil's Den who was finally killed by Union cannon fire. I also recall that the scene was "rearranged". Not sure if it is a Matthew Brady photo.

Hawg Haggen
January 27, 2013, 07:19 PM
Its an Alexander Gardner photograph.

wrfabus
January 27, 2013, 09:05 PM
There is another photo of the same soldier down in the Valley of Death there. This poor soul was dragged around and used as a prop. Alot of the pics taken right after battles were staged for effect. The National Park Service at Gettysburg and numerous experts have debunked that this is where this man fell. See here: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/cwpcam/cwcam3c.html

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 04:03 PM
I looked at the photo in detail and I do not see the head wound mentioned in your link...

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/cwpcam/cw00171.jpg

In the larger photo, you can see the cap next to his head, which looks blue to me. It also appears he is lying on a blanket, which was probably used to drag the body. The fact that his pants are unbuttoned seems to me to suggest he was wounded in the lower belly and was likely looking for the wound, which I have seen often in these old images.

There is also something in the foreground, that looks to me like a piece of broken rifle stock..

Anyone see this???

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 04:09 PM
How the scene appears today...

http://www.delcoghosts.com/images/snipers_.jpg

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 04:12 PM
n October 1864 Isaac Moorhead of Erie, Pennsylvania, toured the field with John Frey, one such local guide. Moorhead wrote of his visit:

"As we approached Round Top it was at once evident that it was the key of the whole position-that point lost and all was lost. Driving our carriage down the rocky lane that leads from the turnpike to Round Top, we soon reached the base. Dismounting among the rocks, we saw some bones of a rebel, with shreds of his "butternut" clothing. We passed through the woods filled with rocks, and ascended the Round Top. The summit is clear of trees, but they are scattered on the sides. On a large rock near the summit is chiseled the inscription; "Col. Strong Vincent fell here com'g 3rd, Brig. lst div. 5th corps, July 2d, 1863.' Standing on the rock and looking down into the valley, Mr. Frey called my attention to the 'Devil's Den," which consisted of two immense rocks standing up side by side, with a small but convenient opening between them. Across the top was another immense rock. The opening was in such a position that neither shot nor shell, although freely thrown at the rebel sharp-shooter occupying this place, could reach him. The story goes (and I deem it an exceedingly plausible one, and Mr. Frey says he does not doubt it), that Col. Vincent was hit by this sharp-shooter in the "Devil's Den.' After repeated efforts to dislodge him, two of Berdan's sharpshooters were called up and the locality of the fellow pointed out to them. One of them slipped down to the friendly cover of a large Whitewood tree, to the right of the Vincent rock, and flanking the opening of the "Devil's Den." Here waiting until the rebel reloaded his gun, and coming cautiously to the end of the rock, he took deliberate aim and sent the rebel to his long home. This [Berdan] sharp-shooter has been at Gettysburg since the battle, and went with Mr. Frey to all these localities. The rebels grave is just at the mouth of the den, and his boots I saw lying just within the den. ... Passing down to the vast rocks, scattered about in the valley at the foot of the mountain, which afforded such excellent lurking spots for the enemy's sharp-shooters, we were told by our guide that many wounded rebels had crawled under these rocks for safety. After the battle heavy rains set in and drowned many of them, and the current of water brought them to view. Others there were undiscovered until the flesh had fallen from their bones. Here, in a secluded spot among the rocks, I found the bones of a rebel just as he had fallen. Picking up one of his shoes to remove the string, to tie together some little trees, the bones of his foot tumbled out. It was a "Georgia state shoe" made from canvas, with leather tips and heel stiffeners. From among his ribs I picked up a battered minie ball which doubtless caused his death. Moving aside a flat stone, Mr. Frey showed us the grinning face and skull of a rebel. Some of them in this rocky part of the field have very shallow graves...."

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 04:16 PM
In 1899, an article appeared in the Gettysburg Compiler, giving an eyewitness account of the battle by Augustus P. Martin, commander of the Union Fifth Corps Artillery at Gettysburg. The article was actually an interview with Martin written by battlefield guide Luther Minnigh. It is impossible to say how much influence Minnigh had on Martin's account, but the story sounds strangely familiar.

"Among the interesting incidents that occurred on Little Round Top was the summary way in which a sharpshooter was disposed of in rear of the Devil's Den. He had concealed himself behind a stone wall between two boulders and for a long time we were annoyed by shots from that direction, one of which actually combed my hair over my left ear and passed through the shoulder of a man a little taller than myself who was standing behind me for a cover. At last we were able to locate the spot, by the use of a field glass, from whence the shots came by little puffs of smoke that preceded the whizzing of the bullets that passed our heads. We then loaded one of our guns with a percussion shell, taking careful and accurate aim. When the shot was fired the shell struck and exploded on the face of one of the boulders. We supposed the shot had frightened him away, as we were no longer troubled with shots from that location. When the battle was ended we rode over to the Devil's Den and found behind the wall a dead Confederate soldier lying upon his back and, so far as we could see, did not have a mark upon his body, and from that fact became convinced that he was killed by the concussion of the shell when it exploded on the face of the boulder...."

Hawg Haggen
January 30, 2013, 05:10 PM
I suppose the head wound could be on the other side or the back and there does appear to be part of a rifle stock with the trigger guard. I don't see how you can determine the color of the kepi with a black and white pic tho. Even if it was Confederate soldiers were always liberating articles of clothing from dead Union soldiers.

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 05:17 PM
I'm just analyzing everything I can. The kepi just looked lighter than the coat to my eye...

I saw no blood on his hand either...

Could that be a rifle destroyed by canon fire???

Looks like bandages or wadding around his upper body in the foreground...

Hawg Haggen
January 30, 2013, 05:27 PM
I don't see bandages and the rifle could have been destroyed by cannon fire but that wouldn't necessarily make it his. If it had been his body would be torn up if indeed he was the sniper which seems highly unlikely at this point. It has long been said the Springfield was a prop put there by the photographer.

SIGSHR
January 30, 2013, 05:41 PM
Was this an actual casualty? Not to belittle his fate,but dragging a corpse around for photgraphic purposes seems a little tasteless to me, plus that battle was fought in high summer. I have seen photos of men of the Iron Brigade lined up for burial, they were already bloated after 3 days.

Hawg Haggen
January 30, 2013, 05:46 PM
Almost all CW pics were staged. Its just the way things were done back then. There's a pic of a guy at Cold Harbor IIRC that was blown apart by cannon fire and they laid the pieces together next to a rifle.

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 05:54 PM
I have this image greatly enlarged. I see what looks like shot or a musketball, the white cloth or bandages, the cartridge box, part of a broken rifle and a few other odds and ends you can only see through enlargement.

Hawg Haggen
January 30, 2013, 06:02 PM
I have it enlarged but I don't see bandages or a ball.

10851Man
January 30, 2013, 06:13 PM
I will mark all the little things I see and then post it later. I also see quite a distinct pock mark in on of the rocks...

I see what looks like a bullet hole in one of his pants legs too...

10851Man
January 31, 2013, 06:13 PM
Have any of you guys looked closely at the white cloth shreds near his upper body????

I just find the little details amazing, even if he was dragged up here on a blanket....

Hawg Haggen
January 31, 2013, 06:25 PM
Looks like his pants are full of holes at the knees which isn't surprising. I think your "bandages" are just white rocks.

10851Man
January 31, 2013, 06:56 PM
They are definitely strips of cloth.....

Hawg Haggen
January 31, 2013, 08:22 PM
If you say so, not gonna argue over it.

4V50 Gary
January 31, 2013, 10:51 PM
I don't think the Georgians fought at Devil's Den.

It was a Texas regiment and the 3rd Arkansas who were there.

Old Dragoon
February 1, 2013, 12:02 AM
Red Pant's...Louisiana Zouave Sniper..or? Hats (Wool caps) were like voyager hats and red pants.

4V50 Gary
February 1, 2013, 12:23 AM
Red pants were worn by some zouaves. Their uniforms were based on the Algerians zouaves. The French originally recruited them and eventually had all French zouave units attired like their Algerian counterparts. Zouaves weren't necessarily trained in marksmanship (most Civil War soldiers weren't given marksmanship instruction).

10851Man
February 1, 2013, 11:27 AM
No argument my friend, just trying to describe what I see under heavy magnification....

indy1919
February 2, 2013, 07:41 AM
I want to thank all who posted photos here... I do have to say that I have seen the devils Den photo all my life and I always had questions about it and now there are even more questions??


Does anyone know how long after the battle it was that these photos were taken???

As a child I do always remember wondering about how that fine looking rifle was just left behind, You would have thought the army that occupied the battlefield afterwards would have gathered them up, and of course Souvenir hunters.. Now it looks like the rifles were picked up, and the Photographer provided the rifle.. (God the press has always been the same, if you can not report the news, just make it up)..



For example in the photo of the bloated bodies, I do not recall seeing any rifles on the ground.. ???? and that seems like a photo that is more "real" and less "stageable"...

4V50 Gary
February 2, 2013, 08:16 AM
After the battle the Provost Marshal attempted to secure the battlefield. The government got dibs (title) to all the battlefield litter. This meant any gun, accoutrements, field equipment left there. Looters were to be arrested.

However, countless civilians wandered the battlefield often to succor the wounded. It is estimated that several thousand responded to help or play lookey loo. Many pretended to help but used that guise to carry off souvenirs. there is a target telescope rifle that was purported to have been found at Devil's Den. It bore the initials HCP and some think it was Henry Clay Poor of the First Texas that fought there alongside with the Third Arkansas. Poor was wounded there but survived the war. That gun now belongs to the Gettysburg Museum.

10851Man
February 4, 2013, 03:26 PM
@ Indy1919 @ 4V50Gary,

Sixteen-year-old John H. Rosensteel found a 36-pound rifle with a telescopic sight on July 5, 1863, at Devil's Den. A small brass plate on the stock was inscribed "HCP 1862." Rosensteel went on to amass thousands of relics that are the core of the national military park's collection and this rifle, his first artifact, is displayed at the visitor center. For years the sign with the rifle noted that its owner was not known.

In the meantime Raymond H. Herrington of Austin, Texas, had an interest in the Civil War. He visited the Gettysburg battlefield during a trip east to see the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. "I didn't know I had any relatives or anything and went to the museum a little bit," he recalls.

Then his aunt, Artie Fay Powell McDonald, now 88 and living in California, sent information that led Herrington back to Gettysburg. She's the family genealogist, doing it the old-fashioned way, going through hard copies, not the Internet, Herrington says. She sent information that Herrington's great-grandfather, 20-year-old Henry Clay Powell, served in Co. K, 1st Texas Infantry, at Gettysburg and he was wounded on July 2, 1863.

During a trip last summer to see the Korean War Veterans Memorial in Washington, Herrington and his wife Zelda returned to Gettysburg. As they waited for a tour with a licensed battlefield guide they visited the visitor center exhibits.

When guide John Fuss began the tour he asked, as he always does, if Herrington was a descendant or had a special interest. Learning about Herrington's connection to the 1st Texas, Fuss says he talked a little more about the unit's action at Devil's Den and "it led to 'there's a sharpshooters rifle here with HCP on it.'"

Herrington had seen the rifle and the two men began to think the impossible - that rifle owner HCP was Herrington's great-grandfather.

By the time Herrington returned home information had been forwarded by Fuss and soon park museum specialist Paul Shevchuck was researching the possibility.

Herrington's great-grandfather was wounded in the head, which made sense if he were a sharpshooter. The rifle, which was made in Keene, N.H., was not government issue, and it had the brass plate with initials, two indications that it was someone's personal weapon. The gun's owner would not have left it on the battlefield unless he were wounded or killed.

These leads didn't prove that HCP was Henry Clay Powell. In fact Shevchuck found several HCPs in Texas and Arkansas rosters of units that were in Devil's Den. Then it came down to Texans H.C. Powell and H.C. Patrick.

Which man was the Gettysburg sharpshooter?

Herrington, a retired state auditor, put his digging skills to work. He found H.C. Patrick in the Texas archives. Patrick was ruled out as the Gettysburg sharpshooter - he had lost an arm the year before at Antietam.

Gettysburg's HCP was Henry Clay Powell.

In recognition of the new information the park changed the display this past June. Visitors can see the rifle on the left as they enter the exhibit gallery.

Herrington and his wife Zelda returned Gettysburg on July 28 to see the display and take pictures. He held his great-grandfather's heavy rifle, "the thrill of my life." Herrington says the park did a "wonderful job" with the display.

After he learned he was a Confederate descendant Herrington joined George Washington Littlefield Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp 59 in Austin. He's treasurer and joins camp members for parades and grave marking ceremonies. He wore his Confederate uniform when he returned to Gettysburg and John Fuss took him again to Devil's Den where his ancestor was wounded.

The Herringtons are coming east again in September and will take relatives from Massachusetts to see the rifle and new display at Gettysburg. They'll meet John Fuss and Paul Shevchuck, revisit Devil's Den, and take plenty of video since many relatives, including Aunt Artie Fay, won't be able to travel to Gettysburg.

Battlefield guide Fuss says, "This is one of the most interesting episodes I've been involved in" in his 12 years of guiding. He gave 59 tours to descendants last year and has had more than 30 tours this year with people who had an ancestor or association to the battle. He doesn't count the many who mistakenly believe they're related to Robert E. Lee, the Gettysburg figure with the most "descendants."

Henry Clay Powell survived three Civil War wounds and died in 1892 of pneumonia at the age of 50. He and his wife and a wagon full of their 10 children had gone to Oklahoma for the land rush. She died of pneumonia 10 days after her husband and their children were farmed out, not seeing each other again for decades. One of them was Aunt Arty May's father....

10851Man
February 4, 2013, 03:32 PM
FYI....https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMxqpHqXucL9XjnzR1Ov2x6GLvuzacuMXsxQCSNq2HPY1cXAZW

10851Man
February 4, 2013, 03:58 PM
http://www.cowanauctions.com/itemImages/89208.jpg

CPL. ABNER COLBY, CO. G., USSS uniformed in his ubiquitous green frock coat kneeling with an early civilian target rifle with telescopic sight adopted for use by Berdan’s famous Sharpshooters. Scratched on the silver backing plate is, “A.D. Colby/Co G./N.H./U.S.S.S.”

In June 1862 the civilian weapons were replaced by the .52 caliber M1859 Sharps Rifle specially altered with a double-set trigger making this Sharpshooter image fairly early. Abner Colby enlisted as a private in the New Hampshire Company (G) of the 2nd USSS in October 1861 and was later promoted to sergeant having been present at all of the major battles fought by the famous Sharpshooters including Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, and Gettysburg.

Sergeant Colby was captured on May 7, 1864 during the battle of the Wilderness and spent the next ten months in various Confederate prisons camps among them the notorious Andersonville. In 1878 Colby applied for an invalid pension and wrote in his affidavit:

“While my company was engaged in the battle of the Wilderness, Va. on the 6th day of May 1864. I was taken prisoner by the enemy while I was accompanying an aide of Gen. Birney, who was carrying an order. I had always been in good health up to this time. After being taken prisoner I was taken to Gordonsville, Va. where I remained about a week. I was then in prison at Lynchburg, Va. about a week. I was then sent to Andersonville, Ga. where I remained about four months. I was then taken to Florence, S.C. where I remained about five and a half months. I was then paroled I think about February 1865, after having been a prisoner ten months nearly. After I had been at said Anderonsville about two months I was taken with chronic diarrhea....”

Colby goes on to state in detail what occurred at Andersonville and Florence and how the captivity had ruined his heath 13 years later.

In March 1865 Colby returned to his company which had been transferred to the 5th New Hampshire Infantry the previous month. Sergeant Colby was discharged at Concord, N.H. on June 21, 1865 and lived the rest of his life in Newton Center, Massachusetts. In 1886 (A.G.O. Nov. 19, 1886) Colby’s service record was formally amended to reflect his promotion to 1st lieutenant (from June 11, 1864), and captain (from January 16, 1865). Officially then, Colby mustered out of the sharpshooters as captain on June 21, 1865. The old soldier answered the final roll call on June 6, 1900.

Rest in peace....

10851Man
February 4, 2013, 04:16 PM
Pleasant Riggs Crump (December 23, 1847 – December 31, 1951) is the last verifiable veteran who fought for the Confederacy during the American Civil War....

Alabama's Last Surviving Confederate Soldier

Taps sounded Monday night, 31 December 1951, for Colonel Pleasant Riggs Crump. Just as the old year was breathing its last, so did Colonel Crump. Nearly 86 years had passed since the guns of war were stilled. The last of Alabama's gray-clad warriors who battled valiantly under the Stars and Bars in the War between the States had quietly gone to the last great Camping Grounds, joining many thousands of his gallant comrades in gray, in the Valhalla of heros where they will be together for all eternity. Colonel Crump died in Lincoln, Alabama, a town oddly enough bearing the same name of the Commander-in-Chief of the United Forces against whom he had fought.

Colonel Crump, 104 years old on 23 December, was an eye-witness to the surrender of General Robert E. Lee's forces to General U. S. Grant at Appomattox Courthouse. Friends and neighbors of the old soldier and members of Talladega's Civitan Club helped him celebrate around a birthday cake decorated with 104 candles. He was made an honorary member of the Civitan Club.

Crump was born 23 December 1847 in Crawford's Cove, near Ashville, St. Clair County, Alabama. The year he was born, James K. Polk was President of the USA, and Indians were on the warpath in sections of the country.

Sometime during his second century, he received the Honorary Title of "Colonel" from President Harry Truman.

In 1863, just when the hopes of Confederate armies were waning, one of his young neighbors, who had been fighting in the 10th Alabama Regiment in the Virginia Campaign, came home on leave. Crump decided to enlist and took off at the age of 16 with his neighbor boy for Petersburg and joined the forces of Northern Virginia.

He fought through many of the Virginia battles and saw the end of the Confederacy at Appomattox .

Forty-eight years after, Colonel Crump recalled how he was just across the road from the McLean House that Sunday, and how, later, he took his little part in the awful drama of the Stacking of the Arms. He would become its last surviving soldier-witness from Alabama.

Ex-private Crump returned to St. Clair County, and when he was 22 he married Mary Hall of Lincoln. He settled on 38 acres of land given to him by his father-in-law. His farm was just over the St. Clair County line from Lincoln. He lived there, in the house he built, for 78 years until his death.

He and Mary had five children and were a family until she died in 1901, fifty years to the day before her husband died. In 1905 he "took" Ella Wall s of Childersburg. Their home lasted 36 years until her summons came in July 1942.

Colonel Crump left behind only 20 Civil War Veterans who had borne the battles in this long-ago: twelve Rebs and eight Yanks. It had been a goodly distance from Appomattox and, for Pleasant Crump, one well worth traveling. Perhaps it gave him a certain spiritual uplifting in being one of the few boys in gray to share their astounding final Confederate Victory in number over the existing Union Army.

The United Confederate Veterans awarded him the honorary title of colonel. In 1950, he met with 98-year-old Gen. James Moore, who was then recognized to be the only other remaining veteran of Alabama. They are shown together in this photo:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7r5L_z1Vf50/SoDBwafVfAI/AAAAAAAAAAM/GyvsNopcFA8/s1600/lastUCVreunion.gif

Crump died having just turned 104 on December 31, 1951 and is buried in Hall Cemetery, Lincoln.

Hawg Haggen
February 17, 2013, 10:24 AM
Here is the Devil's Den soldier in his original location.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/rebel727/movedguy_zps9fbe779f.jpg

4V50 Gary
February 17, 2013, 10:16 PM
It's well known that the photographer staged the photo at Devil's Den.

Hawg Haggen
February 18, 2013, 05:30 AM
Almost all C.W. photos are staged. Especially the ones with bodies.

B.L.E.
February 18, 2013, 07:23 AM
You have to remember that in the pioneering days of photography, the film used was only sensitive to blue light. Orthochromatic film came about in the late 19th century and panchromatic film didn't come about until the early 20th century.
The film being only sensitive to blue light meant that blue items looked light colored and red items looked almost black.
Take this into account when making assumptions about colors based on shades of grey.

Staging photos was a practical necessity in the days of wet plate photography when a photographer needed a horse drawn wagon to haul the equipment needed to take a photo.

10851Man
February 19, 2013, 10:19 AM
True...I enjoy all the old photos...

10851Man
February 19, 2013, 02:10 PM
This photo was staged...

10851Man
February 20, 2013, 03:43 PM
My most recent venture into civil war era fanaticism is to have Mike construct a gunbelt and holsters that would be 'correct' for an ex-civil war veteran on the plains following the war. Since inception, the rig has grown to accommodate dual cap boxes (for both 1862 Colts) and even the frogs for a saber.

Not to mention all the fired bullets and period coins...

bushmaster65
February 22, 2013, 08:58 AM
10851,
That was an outstanding read about HCP.
I've never been able to understand the logic of the tactics back then.
Line abreast through open fields...
My historical passion has always been WWll so I don't know much about the
Civil war. So I was wondering, Were snipers/sharpshooters assigned by their CO's to fixed positions or were they "on their own"?
It just seems to me that no matter what era, a reasonable man would know that once they find your "hide", your time on this earth would be adjusted accordingly.
Also,
what do you CW aficionados recommend for intro reading for this subject?
I try to study from the political to the tactical.

10851Man
February 22, 2013, 12:22 PM
Bushmaster,

From my studies, I have arrived at the following conclusions.

Snipers and Scouts were indeed employed as members of the regular army. However, Guerilla tactics were, at the time, considered uncivilized and un-gentleman like conduct.

Keep in mind that during the Revolutionary war a British sniper decided not to take the shot that would have killed George Washington because a shot to the back was considered cowardly at the time. The ‘skirmish line’ tactics were bred out of the revolutionary war.

Keep in mind Confederate sniper Charles Grace’s famous shot at Spotsylvania,
which killed Union General Sedgewick at nearly 1,000 yards, is officially recorded as the actions of a member of the army during the conflict.

Many ‘Partisan Rangers’ operated on their own and were not official members of the military. Quantrill’s Raiders and Confederate Sympathizer Sniper Jack Hinson (mentioned above) would fit into this category.

g.willikers
February 22, 2013, 05:56 PM
"Mosby's Rangers", by Jeffrey Wert is an excellent read.

4V50 Gary
February 22, 2013, 11:43 PM
Sharpshooters were often used as expert skirmishers. In some cases, "sharpshooters" were used as part of the line of battle. It was, after all, seen as just another onerous task that almost any infantryman could perform.

In the Union, there were both formal and informal ad-hoc sharpshooter units. Included in the former were regiments, battalions and companies that met the War Department's qualification for sharpshooting. This would include Berdan's Sharp Shooters, First Michigan Sharp Shooters, First New York Battalion Sharp Shooters, First Maine Battalion Sharp Shooters, etc. The latter were units raised in the field and manned by reputable (for the most part) marksmen who were detached from their parent organization and temporarily assigned to the ad-hoc command. There are numerous examples of this in both the Union Armies and the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia.

The Confederacy didn't have marksmanship qualifications. They had five methods of selecting men for sharpshooters. Not all of them yielded the most qualified candidate for the job either. Go here for an article on it: http://www.bivouacbooks.com/bbv9i1s1.htm

Not everyone who was an expert marksman joined a sharp shooter unit. The core of any regiment or battalion either North or South was a community based company. Folks enlisted with their brothers, fathers, uncles, co-workers, school mates, nephews, neighbors, friends, etc. They were loathe to part company to join a special unit of sharp shooters that was composed of strangers. Thus it could be found in most units a soldier who was a proficient marksman. That soldier would be called upon at times for a special task. "Take out that officer."

A few exceptional soldiers had access to "telescope target rifles," the period's vernacular for scoped rifles. Soldiers equipped with these often got to select their own spot on the battlefield. Sometimes they would be given special tasks like removing an enemy sharp shooter who was harassing their side.
Mind you, possession of such a weapon does not automatically make one a sharp shooter. In my own research, I have found one instant where a soldier wanted one to stay out of the charges. In another, one soldier bought one so he could play sharp shooter and avoid his normal duties as an infantryman.

Noted author of sniping history and former Curator of the Royal Armoury Museum at Leeds (UK), Martin Pegler wrote an article on the Corn-fed Sharp Shooters. We have corresponded with each other in the past. http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Articles/History/Confederate%20Sharpshooters/Confederate%20Sharpshooters.html

jolly1
February 25, 2013, 08:52 AM
10851Man is 100% partially right.

I am not much in the study of particular civil war battles in the states (as I live in Europe), but I try to read about military history and tactics in great battles.

One thing is, the sniping at those days was considered unethical, as 10851 said.

In a different war also on US soil, American revolution, much earlier, the same ethics applied. This was well shown in a movie "Patriot" with Mel Gibson. Targeting English officers was considered extremely unethical.

For civil war, one more thing to be considered. possible ignorance by commanders and NOT understanding of weapons ability. If the sharps rifle was understood as a breech loader (not a muzzleloader), then the commander might have considered change in tactics and would allow shooting from lying position by advancing unit, and using cover with suppressing fire.

This was against the military doctrine of the time, as majority of weapons was muzzle loader (still present in great mass numbers) and in a reality of the field it was the military doctrine of that time to load the muzzleloader from standing position.

Thus, the standing in the line and marching forward - hoping for a miss by enemy.

The most probably the thing that influenced such a doctrine was a cost of weapon. (this relate both to civil war and Amercian revolution)
The armies were mass supplied mostly with muskets, a long barreled weapon similar to rifle, but without rifling, smooth bore. And inaccurate
The production of rifling - or the rifle - is much more expensive in the process, the rifles of the day were mostly owned by private citizens for hunting, and they were paying for their expensive weapons. The armies were armed cheap with muskets.

Muskets are much worse with accuracy, and require opposing soldiers to get to each other closer in order to hit something with that unruffled rifle, which is also a muzzleloader.

This created the doctrine of marching in the line (two lines), loading by standing on the ground, while the next line shoots a salvo, and marching onwards. Unified salvo in such way has also better effect on enemy in order to cover for poor accuracy (similar to shotgun)
Also, when enemy is at open field at close range, lying on the ground would not do much good for taking the cover, and would reduce re-loading rate in muzzle loader for average soldier. The firing rate should be kept. Thus standing.

the doctrine of marching and standing was kept for a long time.

In civil war, breech loader (sharps) came with rifled barrel and increased accuracy and range, but was not appreciated and was used in standardized way, with some exceptions as mentioned above.

It will never be known how much lives have been lost (or saved) as those abilities of the rifle were not used for the change of field tactics. Unfortunately.

10851Man
February 25, 2013, 03:52 PM
Good posts!

4V50 Gary
February 25, 2013, 10:12 PM
Jolly1 - thank you for joining the discussion.

While rifles were certainly more expensive to manufacture than muskets, it was not the cost that was the determining factor in the limited use of the rifle. Rather, we must remember that linear tactics evolved from earlier warfare where masses of pikemen were supported matchlocked armed infantry. As pikes were phased out in favor of firearms, the linear formations remained. Gradually, the density decreased until by the Napoleonic era the British formation was only two lines strong.

Why the retention of the linear formation? It was believed that battles were won by massed firepower which would demoralize the enemy and render him vulnerable to the bayonet charge. Volume of fire and not accuracy was seen as the winning factor. Accuracy wasn't needed since if a soldier missed his opponent in front of him, there was always another one each side! Riflemen were seen as too independent and out of an officer's immediate control. It was believed that soldiers were brutes and needed supervision of an officer and this was another reason for maintaining the linear tactics into the era of the minie ball.

However, starting in the mid-1700s, some nations began issuing rifles in limited numbers. The rifle armed soldiers were specialists and many of the principalities of the Holy Roman Empire formed them into jager units. These units may be traced to the grenzers (border troops) of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that practiced ambushing the Ottomans from positions of concealment. The Ottomans of course returned the favor and I know they certainly did it to the Maltese and the Knights Hospitallers (Knights of Malta) during the Siege of Malta (1565). Returning to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, they introduced it to the rest of Europe and soon many of the German principalities/duchies/kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire had their own Jager units. So did the Poles and the Russians who also adopted the green coat the rifle for their jagers.

Even after the American Civil War, the inter-European Wars still saw the use of linear tactics. The Austro-Prussian War certainly had it and it was the last time the muzzle loading rifle musket was used in widespread numbers by one side in Europe. The Franco-Prussian War also saw linear tactics being used by both sides.

jolly1
February 26, 2013, 12:40 AM
Hi Gary,
Thanks for input. Let me upggrade with Austro Hungarian - Ottoman conflicts.
When the Ottoman conquered Serbia (decisive battle held at Kosovo 1389- led to crash of Serbia, and Otoman rule of region for next 5 centuries) - this resulted in Serbian exodus to the west in following period. They settled in areas around present Croatian / Bosnian border. As Austro Hungarian empire was under full threat they took the Serbs and Croats in bordering region, and supported their stand giving them some benefits in terms of economy, autonomy, but mostly - they kept them well armed in order to keep the border.

The terrain is hilly, mountains, ridges, creeks, rivers, woods and without much "old fashion" fields to develop ordinary field tactics in terms of line warfare, which was one of the first conditions to make different type of military engagement.

Second, the people there (both Croats and Serbs) by character prefered and developed their own way of fighting - by ambushing from concealed positions, hills, woods, etc. Witout much care of the military ethics adn doctrine of the time.

Thirdly, Otomans had much stronger force and in order to keep the border - the lighter - defending force used the guerrilla tactics to keep stronger force engaged.

At open field this would not have happened.

The people keeping the border, with given autonomy in decision making and Austrian (and venetian) support were not the nobility, but commoners - thus there was no much ethics involved in whether it is ethical to target the officers or not, or to shoot from covered / concealed position or not - so they just acted the only practical way.

In the same time the usual ethical military doctrine, developed by nobility was somewhat different, but for some reason the Austrian court turned the blind eye as long as the border was kept, and the Austrian nationals did not really fight, except in the role of logistics, advisory role, military observeres etc.

As far as the last of 19th century wars were kept elswhere in Europe with old generals running the show, it is interesting to note the further development of rifle as a main military weapon.

Under such influence, famous mauser 98 was developed in longer version around 1898 which met the ww1 of 1914. The lenght of rifle was determined by the last wars in western Europe kept in line where long rifle is needed when firing over forward line of kneeling soldiers, the idea already obsolete by year 1898.

The ww1 has proven the weapon too long to be practical, thus it was shortened between the wars, and shorter mauser 98k (karabiner) was designed to be the main Wehrmacht weapon of ww2.

ww2 has shown that 7,92x57 ammo was to powerful, and too heavy - which also means the rifle was heavy. Which also means less ammo for soldiers to carry.
Average range used was up to 400 meters, so there was really no need for high power rifle.

Thus, medium power ammo evolved, first for german SG44 (sturm gewerhe 44 - german automatic assault rifle, seen first action in German para forces liberating Mussolini from capture) - in same caliber, same shell but with reduced load.

The next development with lessons learned after ww2 in medium power rifle and bullet was 7.62 x 39 - russian in semi auto rifle, and well known ak 47, and american 5.56. Designed for average ranges determined fromww2 experience.

Hi power rifle / ammo kept their practicability and use only as special and sniper weapon ever since.

And thus, the history, lessons learned and practicality and effect kept the role of sniper ever since.

Mk VII
February 26, 2013, 05:25 PM
In terms of hits obtained per pound of lead expended against time, the smoothbore musket had the advantage and that didn't change until the appearance of the Minié rifle.
Civil War tactics were a continuation of the Napoleonic ones, initially anyway - later both sides took to earthworks and digging and even barbed wire. While embracing the new technology, commanders often didn't know how to use it to best advantage.

10851Man
February 26, 2013, 06:22 PM
The South did not have a large mechanical manufacturing base, due in part to a society built primarily around agriculture. As a result, the Confederacy bought roughly 350,000 rifles from a number of British firms including Birmingham Small Arms Trade (BSAT) and the London Armoury Corp.

Confederate specifications were for rifled muskets...FWIW

10851Man
February 26, 2013, 07:55 PM
Looks like a blunt strike to the forehead. What do you think???

http://vpcblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/705px-deadunionsoldiercivilwar.jpg

James K
February 26, 2013, 08:55 PM
"This poor soul was dragged around and used as a prop."

Photographers in those days even had their assistants lie down and pose as corpses for dramatic effect. That was done in some pictures of the Johnstown flood, where one white shirted "body" was thrown up in three different places!

Jim

Hellgate
February 26, 2013, 10:39 PM
This is not particularly Civil War but I have noticed that the American Indian illustrations of battle scenes may be somewhat cartoonish but are actually more realisitic. They often showed much blood coming out of the mouths of the killed/wounded soldiers. Not the little trickle of a chewed capsule of dye seen in a deathe scene in the movies but rather blood spraying out as if you are coughing out from blood filled lungs due to a shot through the chest. That last photo was more like what the indians would have drawn.

4V50 Gary
February 27, 2013, 12:09 AM
Thanks Jolly1. You certainly filled in a lot of stuff on Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans. Any idea who the Pandours are? I've heard of them but never learned anything.

bushmaster65
February 27, 2013, 10:56 AM
The large area of blood to the right side of the forehead has a border that lines up very well with the nose. It makes it look almost as if the forehead is flattened. I think that might be a slight illusion created by that line.
He definitely received a violent wound while his heart was beating as evidenced by the hemorrhage from the nasal and oral cavities. Looks like a penetrating wound on the bridge of the nose causing massive damage to the
underlying structures of the nasal cavities and cranial vault. My first impression was shrapnel wound. I'm betting he was already dead when he hit the ground.
War is Hell:(

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 11:49 AM
Bushmaster,

I see what appears to be evidence of blunt force trauma to the forehead and over the left eye.

I noticed the canon brush near the body and thought this could have been a premature ignition.

Comments???

jolly1
February 27, 2013, 12:43 PM
Gary, just ask!

Now, this is a rough story - which will shed some light on modern fashion, not really arms related.

In the slang of Balkan people, pandur (origin from word you mentioned) means a cop, in a bad manner. This is a policeman in bad meaning of the word, somebody terrorizing poor honest and peaceful people...

The word comes from the time of mediaval wars, when one of most succesful military leaders was Baron Franjo Trenk. He had formed a unit under his command of elite soldiers and cavalary, fighting against the enemies of Austria. (foreign and domestic)
The name of unit was "Trenkovi panduri", or "the Trenks pandours".
Thats the answer you asked for, however the story goes on.

The unit was formed in 1740 for the purpose of fighting the war with Prussians by barun Franjo Trenk and full support of Maria Teresia, the Austrian Empress. At the begging the unit consisted of 1000 men. In later years upgraded to more then 3000. the ranks were split between pandoures (infantry), and housars (cavalry).

Pandours weaponry consisted of two pairs of muzzle loading pistols, a sword, a sabre and a muzzleloading rifle or musket. During their war history they were deployed from France, to Prussia and up to Checkia. Their skill, succes and ruthlessness against much stronger enemy force made their name quite infamous.

Barun Trenks exploits were noted amongst the wider European nobility, and there was always need for skilled and experienced soldiers to be used in other smaller wars and conflicts elsewhere in Europe.

So, it was Baron Trenk, with his pandoures often called for assistance when the need arose. And was paid well for the services rendered.

There was widely spread saying amongst middle Eropean nations saying: "God save us from plague and Croats", which is quite self explanatory. i would guess, from the reason that lower ranks were fighting for the prize...

So his unit was one of the first in history to be used as "soldiers of fortune", or hired paramilitary unit, which is hystorically less known fact.
They acted within strict military discipline (at liest on the battlefield) and one of their symbols was a tie, as a part of their uniform, the rest of uniform looked very much made under turkish influence - for simple reason - they kicked the Otomans out of Slavonia - northern part of Croatia, and took their colors, to which they integrated a tie. This also added to their image of fearless and ruthless combatants.

This is the same tie we use today - this was actually first used as a part of military uniform and their symbol widely recognized, feared and deeply respected.

The other word for a tie, is "kravata", or "croata", and simply beacuse these guys were Croats, thus the name for this fashion article.

The nobility (they were fighting for) quickly accepted this part of uniform as a fashion and status symbol of a winning side, and the tie remained in western dress code ever since.

Completely off-topic, but there is another story of why the buttons on the sleeves are part of modern business suits. The story goes like this: great percentage of Austro hunagrian court servants came from Croatian rural country. Those servants had a nasty habit of wiping their noses using their sleeves, which did not look good at all.

So some of the Austrian emperors (not sure which) put a stop to nose wiping using sleeves by making an order that servants uniform must have buttons starting from elbow, down to wrist.
Thus even the buttons remained.(on modern suit)

jolly1
February 27, 2013, 01:11 PM
Further to above, just add a word on Trenks tactics:

In the time, the military tactics mostly used was a line tactics at open fields previously discussed in more details.

The Trenk's unit used the tactics of breaking the enemy line, by fearless attacks and disorganizing and spliitng the enemy force, and later decimating the scaterred units - allowing supporting conventional allied force great advantage.

The origin of tactics so much in nature of balkan frontier people - I mentioned earlier.

Several decades later, similar tactics deployed at naval warfare brought all the glory to admiral Horatio Nelson, but will not go into this now.

bushmaster65
February 27, 2013, 05:10 PM
In order for a bruise(raspberry) like that to fill in, he would have to have blood pumping to that area. Does look mechanical what with the even looking diameter though. Perhaps a knockout blow then a bayonet stab to the face at the bridge of the nose? Hell the possibilities are endless, which is what makes these things so engrossing. One of the nurses I work with saw me holding my laptop up at a weird angle while i was looking at this and came to investigate. lol She was intrigued as well with my civil war P**N. As far as the cannon brush, I always assume that such things are set dressing by the photographer. Unless its sticking out of his head:eek:
I see blood to the right forehead and running from the right nostril down the right side of the mouth to the chin. I'm leaning towards him falling straight back long enough for some blood to start on that right side then turning to the left and bleeding out? But something penetrated the bridge of the nose.
Got any more like this? I had a book in Germany on wound ballistics in both theaters of operation in WWll. About 4" thick with case studies from the front lines with detailed photos, projectiles used, velocities, etc. Used to study it for hours. Till it got stolen:mad:

Hawg Haggen
February 27, 2013, 06:59 PM
Blow the pic up and you can clearly see a jagged piece of metal sticking out of the bridge of his nose and possibly another one in his chin and the blood line on the forehead shows up better. He has multiple frag wounds on his face and body as evidenced by the many small holes in his jacket.

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:08 PM
@ Bushmaster,

I did a lot of work with ballistics in my LEO career so I too find this fascinating.

I think you are correct about the canon brush. I found an additional image of the same soldier taken from a wider angle and the brush isn't there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Dead_soldier_(American_Civil_War_-_Siege_of_Petersburg,_April_1_1865).jpg

There are hundreds of small details in this image!!!

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:14 PM
In this image, I see the sheath of his sword coming out from under his coat and a white feather near the tip. In the smaller image of this, previously posted, it looks like a paper cartridge near his head...

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:18 PM
Quite a few things going on in this image. Looks like a gunshot wound to the wrist...

http://media.avclub.com/images/413/413751/16x9/627.jpg?0551

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:22 PM
Just a young fellow here with no shoes...

http://www.historyplace.com/civilwar/cwar-pix/confed-boy.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:23 PM
Significant head trauma in this image...

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/images/stories/010613mud/image019-1000.jpg

WillyKern69
February 27, 2013, 07:28 PM
But I was surprised no one corrected the OP(unless i missed it). There was never a Civil War, that would signify a uprising or revolt. That did not happen. War between the States, War of Northern Agression, and War of Succession are better terms. Civil War is the same as saying "clips" when you mean "magazine". The term Civil War was used by Northern newspapers to ligitimize the invasion of the South. Propaganda still propagated today.

WK

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:32 PM
Probably staged, but note damaged weapon in background...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/04/CivilWarFallen6.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:34 PM
Another facial wound in the foreground...

http://daphne.palomar.edu/scrout/ams100/american_civil_war_confederate_dead_chancellorsville.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:36 PM
Another casualty. Based on his death posture, I would speculate he suffocated...

http://www.civilwar-pictures.com/g/albums/casualties/near_mrs_alsops_house.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:37 PM
Another image of good quality, apparently a head wound...

http://atlanticjaxx.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/april-1865-petersburg-virginia-dead-confederate-soldier-outside-the-walls-of-fort-mahone.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:40 PM
Another casualty...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyzHrvyRBoQGFJaD566JmDzV-6HKM30oZcyn7t_SiaMklkTnyoOw

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 07:52 PM
Not civil war, but interesting nonetheless. Print from negative in the Library of Congress. Alabaman Rube Burrows was a train robber, primarily in Texas. He was killed in Linden, Alabama, where he had been captured and handcuffed to a bench. Using a hidden pistol, he got free from the handcuffs then went looking for another of his captors who had taken his Marlin rifle. Burrows was killed in the ensuing gunfight.

http://media-cache-ec2.pinterest.com/550x/31/13/1b/31131bf387197c0c2fa4a0ca4a1390ea.jpg

Hellgate
February 27, 2013, 07:59 PM
The boy with no shoes probably had them taken after he died. Good shoes were in short supply among the southerners.

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 08:03 PM
John Johnston, the real "Jeremiah Johnson." His native american wife was killed by the Crow people.He embarkd on a 12yr vendetta against the tribe. He would cut out the liver of each man he killed. This was an insult being the Crow believed by eating the liver of animals they killed they recieved its vitality.He was a sailor,union soldier in 1864 Colorado Calvery,Scout,hunter, guide, & whiskey peddler.

http://media-cache-lt0.pinterest.com/550x/de/99/01/de9901c207d746eb135187e4e9e23638.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 08:04 PM
Cole Youngers rig. We are direct descendants of Bob Younger...

http://mnprairieroots.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/bank-raid-c-youngers-gun.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 08:06 PM
Uncannily life-like death photo of Northfield Minnesota bandit Bill Chadwell. Nice shot...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-XAcgYvh8Pw/SlUwR7rP-2I/AAAAAAAAAbw/BKhm1dPNcPM/s320/William_Stiles.jpg

10851Man
February 27, 2013, 08:08 PM
Oklahoma bandit William 'Bill' Doolin felled by a shotgun blast...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/Doolinbody.png/200px-Doolinbody.png

Hawg Haggen
February 27, 2013, 08:28 PM
Looks like he took both barrels of a ten gauge.

WillyKern69
February 27, 2013, 09:32 PM
Great photos.

bushmaster65
February 27, 2013, 10:52 PM
I agree with Hawg about the first picture that has now been blown up. That thump to the forehead clearly shows an entrance wound, possibly two. The rest of the shrapnel wounds are as he pointed out as well.
These other pics are fascinating. I really wish they didn't touch the bodies as they did back then though. In a couple of the wider shots you could almost imagine some assistant with an armful of muskets placing them here and there. :rolleyes:
One thing I've been seeing is some of the dead having their waistline exposed. Such as shirt pulled up and pants sometimes unbuttoned. When I saw the large pic of the soldier in the mud with his pockets turned inside out i wondered if some of these soldiers used money belts and that's why their shirts are pulled up? the other pics show obvious signs of looting for supplies, why not take their money too? Ever seen a reference to how soldiers handled their pay?
You have a helluva lineage there. Being in the genealogical tree with the youngers. I presume your family has a well documented tree? Man that must be a read huh? As for that pistol he had, I've never heard of those. Looks like it was made during the conversion era from BP to cartridge?:confused:

10851Man
February 28, 2013, 10:23 AM
Glad you enjoyed the photos. I will post more as I can. I appreciate your forensic analysis of these images.

On the Bill Chadwell heart shot, to my eye that looks like an exit wound. Your thoughts????

bushmaster65
February 28, 2013, 03:31 PM
When I look at this pic i see the obvious hole in his upper L chest but the rush job in cleaning all of the blood off of him. I thought for a minute it might have been lividity but then i noticed the swipe marks from cleaning.
The wound is above the heart (notice the nipple line) and appears to be right on the border of the breast plate.
Not knowing what made the wound but assuming a med to large cal firearm, not being able to view his back etc, I would say this was an entrance wound because:
This area of the chest is dense with lung tissue and most importantly, all of the ascending blood vessels such as aorta and superior vena cava. You rip one of those either from direct contact or over pressurization from the bullet tract and you are a goner. Then you have the rib cage, spinal column, and breast plate. Not that it isn't beyond reason, I just think there would be much more debris and tissue pulled to an exit wound, causing a "bulge" or a blow out where the debris exited the wound.
The edges of this wound are clean. no surrounding deformity. If he fell and died on his face, that could explain the blood all over the front of him.
To be honest, I am suspicious of the nice neat blood trail from the wound after all the other blood was cleaned up.:confused:
could this have been staged? Also, I cant tell what that is at the bottom of the hole were the blood starts. smudge mark? Photographer will know that you cant tell the difference between black ink and blood in his pic..:D
Yes I am a pessimist:p
If you look at the "doolin" photo, you can see what happens when you bleed out and it is contained within the body. He has a gross deformity to his right side, around the area of the scapula. I've seen that before and its blood held in side the body. He most likely died face up.
Id like to hear your thoughts on the soldier you think might have suffocated.
so tag, you're it!

Hawg Haggen
February 28, 2013, 06:04 PM
I too think the Chadwell shot is an entrance woiund. As for the other one I don't think there's enough info in the pic to tell what he died from.

B.L.E.
February 28, 2013, 10:24 PM
In the silent movie days, chocolate syrup was reportedly used as stage blood because it photographed more realistically with the blue spectrum sensitive black and white film of those days.
Villains actually wore red capes and hats because it photographed blacker than actual black material.
That's why blood in civil war photos looks ink black and why the reddish skin tone of Caucasians photographed nearly as dark as the brown skin of Indians and Africans.

4V50 Gary
March 1, 2013, 06:21 AM
Shirts were pulled up by soldiers to examine their wounds. Belly shots were considered unsurvivable. Sawbones (military surgeons) didn't cut them up to sew back intestines back then.

10851Man
March 1, 2013, 12:41 PM
@ Bushmaster,

After reading your explanation I have to agree with you. The face-down theory made sense.

About the "suffocating" soldier. In 2004 I investigated a murder where the victim was shot twice with a 9x19 124 grain FMJ. First shot was through the right hand into the chest (through the nipple line between sternum and RH breast) and it exited cleanly.

The victim spun around and was shot again with 1/2" of the exit wound, so both wounds appeared like the number '8' on his body.

He ran a short distance, through an apartment complex and collapsed at the door of a fellow Norteno gang member. They dragged him inside and propped him up against the wall. Pink froth seeped from the wounds and there was a good deal of blood on his clothing and the floor.

The victim's friends tried to stop the bleeding for 10 minutes or so, not wanting to call police (which hadn't been called because shots fired calls in that neighborhood were so common) and they didn't call 911 until he passed out.

When I arrived, he was in the same posture as the suffocating soldier. He still had pupillary reactivity and a faint pulse. However, he was turning blue around the lips. By the time paramedics arrived, agonal respiration had set in. They started a vent (chest tube) and worked on him for a few minutes, but never could restore a heartbeat.

At autopsy, the bullets missed the ribs entirely and only tissue and blood vessels were involved. The coroner said the shots punctured the RH ling and damage from both the bullet and temporary cavity destroyed blood vessels and he suffocated when the chest cavity filled with blood.

It was a terribly painful expression and his eyes were wide open as if he saw something that scared him.

I don't miss those days at all...

10851Man
March 1, 2013, 03:20 PM
A photo of the Northfield Bandits. Our relative, Bob Younger. appears in this photo. His brother, Cole Younger was said to have been shot 11 times in the volley and survived.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/4048/PreviewComp/SuperStock_4048-6686.jpg

10851Man
March 1, 2013, 03:22 PM
Clell Miller was shot in the chest and head it appears...

http://www.cah.utexas.edu/db/dmr/image_lg/e_rwa_0141.jpg

Found this which may interest Bushmaster:

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/southernminn.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/9/7b/97b1402d-6c1c-5003-a0cc-48250506236c/4fdc246b47336.image.jpg

An image of Chadwell and Miller together:

http://amberandchaos.com/tp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/2Northfield0907.jpg

10851Man
March 1, 2013, 06:10 PM
Another casualty of war...

Famas
March 2, 2013, 05:41 PM
A very interesting thread, a sort of battlefield pathology which has given a kind of gruesome fascination to witnesses, doctors, and the curious alike. Yet, it should be remembered that it is also a very important field of forensic study to understand the devastating effects of warfare, no matter what the era.

About one of the images - I was looking at the images of the poor soul with the cannon brush by his side. I wonder if he was an NCO or officer? I say this because I noticed on his left side, and mostly hidden under his coat, we can the tip of what appears to be a sword scabbard.

Hawg Haggen
March 2, 2013, 05:51 PM
mostly hidden under his coat, we can the tip of what appears to be a sword scabbard.

Bayonet sheath.

10851Man
March 4, 2013, 04:09 PM
Agreed....bayonet sheath...

bushmaster65
March 4, 2013, 05:03 PM
That one pic you talked about where he looked as though he might have suffocated, that's certainly possible. I can't remember seeing any obvious wounds but remember a possible improvised dressing to the lower right leg?
As far as his body position goes, the impression I got from first glance was that he was being treated in that position. propped up.
As far as these north field pics, I started laughing because I swear those photographers were staging those blood trails...lol. You know that undertaker was "taking care of the burials" in return for a bit of commerce from the pics and body viewing etc. The blood is BS. All those guys had been cleaned up so there's gonna be no blood flow. That over lay of the anatomy was interesting but misleading as far as proportion and positioning. But it gives a decent idea of the underlying structures. So tell me about your relative Bob Younger. I'm afraid all I know is from movies such as the long riders, etc.

10851Man
March 4, 2013, 06:05 PM
@ bushmaster,

I agree with you 100% on your assessment of the photos. I will write more about Bob later when I have more time...

10851Man
March 5, 2013, 06:55 PM
Gunslingers in this photo:

http://media-cache-ec2.pinterest.com/550x/98/98/23/9898230e20e03f9f0570240e9f2b04a2.jpg

Sam Bass Gang:

http://media-cache-ec2.pinterest.com/550x/8f/75/23/8f752357e0dc6eee5392ddd4b7285c10.jpg

10851Man
March 5, 2013, 07:21 PM
James & Co.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eAv_6n_Gzlg/TLZIQwCL0cI/AAAAAAAAF28/g3GG0Oz7yiQ/s1600/Jesse+James+Gang.+(+Foto+2+)+.jpg

James-Younger gang before Northfield Raid:

http://remnantsonsmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/James-Gang.jpg

Look at the different weapons in the hands of james gang:

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/27/2741/N6RND00Z/posters/the-james-younger-gang-l-r-cole-younger-jesse-james-bob-younger-frank-james.jpg

Jessie's wife's pistol:

http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Jesse-James-gun.jpg

James-Younger Northfield Pistol - said to have been dropped by Bill Chadwell when he was felled:

http://www.schwendguns.us/images/SG_James_Younger_Gan.jpg

Cole Younger's pistol removed after his surrender at hanska Slough:

http://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_detail/5-bank-raid-c-youngers-gun.jpg

Rigmarol
March 5, 2013, 07:37 PM
I read somewhere a long time ago, that if you pay attention, most pictures taken of "cowboys" and such show everyone with their hats pushed back to the back of their heads.

The question was asked if this was a "style" back then.

The answer given was no, due to photography of the times, everyone was asked to "stay absolutely still" and to "push that hat back so we can see yur face!".

Anyone have more insight on this?

B.L.E.
March 5, 2013, 09:22 PM
I understand that people who posed for portraits in those early days often sat in chairs that had special head rests to help them hold absolutely still during the long exposure that early film needed.
The cameras didn't even have mechanical shutters, the photographer took off the lens cap, counted out the time with a watch, and then replaced the lens cap to expose the film.
That's why all those early photos were either of dead people or of people posing for a portrait.

10851Man
March 6, 2013, 10:25 AM
I have a photographer friend who still has an old antique tintype camera and we are going to try to find the resources to take some 'new' tintypes just for fun...

bushmaster65
March 6, 2013, 12:56 PM
You go taking tin types you gotta go all out...period wear and set? gotta see those -man

Rigmarol
March 6, 2013, 02:08 PM
(smarta$$ alert)

Uh, they got an "App" for that.

My sweetie:
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r104/rigmarol/Cowboy%20Action/IMAG0370-1-1.jpg

Taken with my Android Smart phone.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

(Smarta$$ mode off)

noelf2
March 6, 2013, 02:47 PM
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac351/noelf2/tintype2.jpg
Back when Silver Dollar City still did real tin types.

10851Man
March 6, 2013, 03:03 PM
Definitely an all-out effort in period dress, guns and everything.

How many of you have ever got to shoot a 140+ year old Moore .32 Rimfire??? That's a seven shooter by the way!!!!

10851Man
March 6, 2013, 03:14 PM
I know there are apps, but I want to do the real tintype. here is an effect I pulled off messing with exposure rates just for fun.

There are actually 3 colts in this picture and the pipe is a genuine civil war era artifact...

10851Man
March 6, 2013, 03:23 PM
Bob Younger as a young man in the first photo:

A photo of me in the second image:

An older Bob Younger in the the last image: