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View Full Version : Will all the gloom and doom affect muzzleloaders


deerslayer303
January 16, 2013, 02:56 PM
Gary-- If this is not the right area to post this please move, I figured it was pertaining to B.P. so I thought it would be ok.


Do you guys think all the proposed legislation if passed will effect our beloved black powder arms. Are we going to be required a background check to purchase? No more shipping directly to us? I've been watching the news today and its just craziness.

Doc Hoy
January 16, 2013, 04:13 PM
If you read the President's four prominent points they do make sense.

But when you read further the plan begins to unravel.

I am sure others will wade in on this issue but I am terribly underinformed since my primary source is the news media and you can be certain that the news media will not present the facts.

Of one thing I am convinced. Whatever we do, or whatever is done to us, it won't help. We are trying to fix the wrong problem just as we did with health care.

4V50 Gary
January 16, 2013, 04:23 PM
If the legislation or executive orders or whatever measure is pursued leaves muzzle loaders alone, I think the industry & hobby will see a surge in interest.

Logan5579
January 16, 2013, 04:35 PM
Been reading about what the politicos want to shove down our throats, it probably won't affect us (as BP guys)at first and not directly...but you know we're on their list somewhere. Eventually the antis want ALL firearms, and probably the slingshots, knives, forks, and pointy sticks too.

The buying frenzy is already affecting us indirectly. Locally, there are few projectiles available (hornady roundball, powerbelt rifle bullets, etc) powder subs are gone off the shelf and on backorder, no #11 caps or 209 primers anywhere. I live in a rural area and everyone around here owns a smokepole or two and has proactively bought up everything they normally use "just in case."

Since our tools of choice are considered antique weapons, I do wonder if the antis are going to start trying to put us under the thumb by changing shipping regulations so we can't have purchases delivered directly to us or by limiting the number of primers we can buy. Already you can't buy goex or swiss at any local shop because BP is considered an explosive and the shops would have to build a bunker to house their stock. Hopefully the subs don't get reclassified too. This is all the more reason we can't give an inch on the gun control issue and why I re-upped my NRA membeship early and sent them an extra few bucks to boot.

10851Man
January 16, 2013, 04:45 PM
I think that it will encompass all firearms....and I will gladly hand mine over, Bullets First!!!!

Sic Semper Tyrannis!!!

Doc Hoy
January 16, 2013, 05:36 PM
....That all of mine are going to be stolen.

Sure Shot Mc Gee
January 16, 2013, 06:08 PM
From 1968 and on forward to this day. The only thing presidents & politicians have initiated in their proposals for more or better Gun Control Laws was the spurring of those who thought they were about to be affected by new laws and regulations. Thus causing many average law abiding citizens to immediately buy more of the same. As far as B/P enthusiasts worried. I see no reason too. How can today's politicians outlaw a rifle or pistol that was carried and used by many of those who signed the US. Constitution. To do so would be absurd. But needing to have a back ground check done or a firearms registration is indeed possible.

SIGSHR
January 16, 2013, 06:13 PM
Yes. Why think otherwise? In 1775 an F&I Brown Bess or a Committee of Safety musket in the hands of a Colonial was an "assault weapon" and a threat to the Powers that Be-Lexington and Concord anyone. We must not be fooled by divide and conquer tactics, an attack on ant aspect of the RKBA and on any category of firearms is an attack on ALL of us.

brazosdave
January 16, 2013, 06:26 PM
I don't know, but I doubt it. I am not going to get hysterical about anything, that's already being done. Basically, he admitted all the really potent actions would need to be taken by congress, his orders were basically directed at federal agencies.

10851Man
January 16, 2013, 07:22 PM
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary

EMBARGOED UNTIL THE START OF THE PRESIDENT’S REMARKS

January 16, 2013

Gun Violence Reduction Executive Actions
Today, the President is announcing that he and the Administration will:

1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.

2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.

3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.

4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.

5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.

6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.

7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.

8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).

9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.

10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.

11. Nominate an ATF director.

12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper
training for active shooter situations.

13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.

14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.

15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies.

16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.

17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.

18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.EMBARGOED

19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.

20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.

21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.

22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.

23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

North East Redneck
January 16, 2013, 08:28 PM
Where I live, you need a 'permit' to purchase powder, caps, primers, roundball etc. You do not need a 'permit' to possess them. :confused:
So, I just stock up on these items. I do not believe that they will come after BP stuff, at least not in the near future. However, the 'permit' can be revoked for almost any reason, by your local Chief of law enforcement. Lucky for me, mine is decent and does not mess with people.

indy1919
January 16, 2013, 10:50 PM
North East Redneck, May I ask a question, And I am not asking about you.. But lets say I move next door to you, and Being an ignorant so and so, If I drove to the sovereign state of Indiana and purchases a whole lot of the afore mentioned items, which are all off the shelf here, then drove back to my new home next door to you, would I be in any trouble legally...

Now you my friend would be in trouble because when I move into a neighborhood, the property values sink :eek:

North East Redneck
January 17, 2013, 08:55 AM
Indy, I would think that you would not be in any legal trouble. The property values dropped in my area when I moved in.
If you can lower em some, help me out. I like low taxes. :D

brazosdave
January 17, 2013, 09:18 AM
Hahahahahhahahahaha! Good un!

indy1919
January 17, 2013, 09:19 AM
so a follow up question NER is not the permit to purchase those items pretty much bunk???? (Like so many of those laws are)

Rifleman1776
January 17, 2013, 09:23 AM
At this point all we know is the proposed regulations/laws/orders, whatever they are will limit and control the lives of honest citizens. Privacy will be gone. We will become a controlled people, just as feared when Obama first ran for President.
Details are just speculation.

TomADC
January 17, 2013, 12:03 PM
As long as ATF classifies cab & ball & black powder guns in general as non fire arms we'll be okay but if that changes.......

pnolans
January 17, 2013, 02:35 PM
I slipped under the "finish line" and finished putting together the parts for an AR15 about a month ago.

Loved it , fun to shoot, quality parts from PSA ...

The effect all this broohaha has had for me... I sold the AR, and have purchased TWO blackpowder rilfes. Something about it made sense to me.

Less crap to break, more easily found parts, etc....

I still have hunting rifles , shotguns, semi-auto pistols.

But I like the idea of a muzzleloader. So now I have 2.

My $0.02..

Pahoo
January 17, 2013, 02:46 PM
Do you guys think all the proposed legislation if passed will effect our beloved black powder arms.
The ice is getting thinner and will have an indirect effect. Eventually they will go after the gun show promoters as well as the 2nd. amendment. Not only have I seen guns and ammo prices go up but M/L primers. Many "trusted" companies, have started gouging the folks. ..... ;)

Be Safe !!!

North East Redneck
January 17, 2013, 03:55 PM
Indy, if you purchase out of state, I'd say it is bunk. However, without said 'permit', if you are not hunting, don't get caught outside your home with a BP gun.
Looks like we are in for a NY state type law also. Who knows what next.

Strafer Gott
January 17, 2013, 04:55 PM
It's funny, but last week I found 4 cans of primers, 10s and 11s, remmy, for a buck fifty each. Powder, well Pyrodex, is still widely available, but I bought a couple pounds anyway.

indy1919
January 18, 2013, 09:06 AM
OHHH now I think I understand , North East Redneck.. I can own it with out a permit, I just better not get caught using it... If I may be so bold to ask, what does it take to get said Permit?????

ohen cepel
January 18, 2013, 09:16 AM
I think lead may be the biggest challenge in the long run, price will keep going up and regulations on lead may get you in the long run.

deerslayer303
January 18, 2013, 01:20 PM
I think lead may be the biggest challenge in the long run, price will keep going up and regulations on lead may get you in the long run.

Its HOGWASH I tell ya!! LEAD comes out of the ground, and we just put it back to where it came from! :D

North East Redneck
January 21, 2013, 10:18 PM
Indy, we got us some crazy foolish laws up here.
To get said 'permit', you must take a safety class, then apply to your local LE office. Get pictured and printed and your local chief of LE will decide what if any permit you may be allowed to have. FID is lowest, non large cap rifles and shotguns, LTC B, non large cap handguns, rifles and shotguns. LTC A, anything that isn't NFA, subject to restrictions placed on license by the Chief. Class B is not allowed to carry a handgun, except hunting and range trips, weapon must be locked up during transport.
Get an OUI, no more guns. Get any misdemeanor charge, good luck getting any guns. Sure, if you wait long enough you may get your non large cap rifles and shotguns back. Then again, you may not. Subject to local authority.

pohill
January 21, 2013, 11:40 PM
I live in MA and have a Class A permit, so basically I can buy any gun that's for sale in MA. Some of the modern guns that I own are not Mass compliant but are grandfathered in. The problem is when I try to buy in NH or ME. ME is where I buy all my BP guns, powder, caps, etc. and I can buy any BP long gun or cap and ball revolver, but the store will not sell me a cartridge revolver, even if it's an antique. They do not want to mess with MA laws so they cover their butts when selling to a MA resident. I recently bought an original Springfield Trapdoor 50-70, and a Gallagher .54, but since they both shoot a cartridge, I had to go through a background check. Pain in the arse, annoying, but it had to be done if I wanted those guns. If I bought them in MA, I would not have needed a background check (antiques). Confusing as heck.

prob
January 22, 2013, 01:28 AM
Understand that we are never safe. Ever. It matters not if you like semi-auto rifles or muzzleloaders, precision bolt action rifles or airguns, the anti-gun forces do not care and will not rest until they have effectively disarmed everyone. Their view of the second amendment is so childish as to be laughable. Just today I read an article in the Los Angeles Times that quoted Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa as saying "When the founders passed the 2nd amendment, they didn't have assault weapons back then. The notion that you're violating the 2nd amendment by banning assault weapons doesn't pass the history test or the laugh test. If you need a high capacity magazine with over ten bullets to hunt a deer, you're in the wrong sport".

This from one of the most powerful politicians in California.

We must be ever vigilant and never give an inch. The anti-gun forces use terms like "compromise" without ever giving up anything on their end, and "common sense restrictions" without ever using any common sense themselves. They work at driving wedges between the different factions of the shooting sports and, sadly, are oftentimes successful. How many times have you heard someone quote a "hunter" or a "gun owner" who says no one needs a high capacity magazine. Rest assured, these people are evil and cunning and know exactly what they're doing.

The best thing to do as a firearms enthusiast and a patriot is to always maintain a membership in the NRA, especially in light of the media's unrelenting attacks on all of the good people who comprise the backbone of this fine organization.

And most certainly, do not ever think they will not come after you. As an example, many years ago I belonged to an organization known as the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association. The FCSA had a bimonthly publication and NEVER got in involved in the politics of firearms. Their position was that they were gentleman shooters whose rifles were so large and costly that no one would ever consider them as anything other than sporting rifles. Of course they were wrong and in short order the .50 BMG cartridge and rifle became a media generated bogey man that was successfully legislated against and banned in the state of California - even though not one crime was ever committed by someone using a .50 BMG rifle. Needless to say, the FCSA is a very politically involved group these days.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

mrbatchelor
January 22, 2013, 01:41 AM
I live in MA and have a Class A permit, so basically I can buy any gun that's for sale in MA. Some of the modern guns that I own are not Mass compliant but are grandfathered in. The problem is when I try to buy in NH or ME. ME is where I buy all my BP guns, powder, caps, etc. and I can buy any BP long gun or cap and ball revolver, but the store will not sell me a cartridge revolver, even if it's an antique. They do not want to mess with MA laws so they cover their butts when selling to a MA resident. I recently bought an original Springfield Trapdoor 50-70, and a Gallagher .54, but since they both shoot a cartridge, I had to go through a background check. Pain in the arse, annoying, but it had to be done if I wanted those guns. If I bought them in MA, I would not have needed a background check (antiques). Confusing as heck.

I don't think they could legally sell an out of state resident a handgun. A long gun is fair game. But I believe you cannot purchase a handgun out of state regardless of where it is. It has to be shipped between two FFLs to cross state line for transfer.

Likewise, for the cartridge rifle, they're following their state law, which doesn't recognize the background check associated with a "foreign" permit like your MA Class A.

I dare say you would find exactly the same procedure anywhere you go in the country. It isn't just ME law. It's the GCA 1968.

steinauge
January 22, 2013, 06:51 AM
The enemy agent in the white house will not be satisfied until you we cant even own a BB gun.There is NO "reasonable" anti gun legislation.

Logan5579
January 22, 2013, 08:23 AM
FWIW, I agree with prob. I really think it boils down to power, the antis want all guns (including BP) and as has been said bb guns, knives, and pointy sticks because its easy to strongarm someone who's defenseless. Those who have all the power often use it to subjugate those who are powerless.

pohill
January 22, 2013, 08:45 AM
I don't think they could legally sell an out of state resident a handgun

I'm referring to antique handguns, which they can legally sell if they want to (if the pre-1898 ammo involved is obsolete or unconventional, which it is). But this store's policy is that if they have even one round of an obsolete or unconventional cartridge for sale, then it's not obsolete or unconventional. They will sell an antique cartridge revolver to a NH resident, but not a MA resident. But they'll sell me a cap and ball revolver with no background check, no permit check, not even a driver's license check.
Truthfully, with the laws in the mess they're in, I don't blame the store. Antique cartridge ammo is definitely a gray area.

10851Man
January 22, 2013, 10:01 AM
Funny to see Obama backtracking now in his conferences to the public. I read a study recently that claims that the American public now owns more rounds of ammunition than the Federal government.

That has to make them think....:eek:

North East Redneck
January 22, 2013, 04:36 PM
Pohill,

I'm also an LTC A holder, and while I can see what you are saying, you know first hand how insane the laws are in Mass. I can understand the store owners fears of becoming tangled up in a mess. Not saying that your view is wrong. Just that I can see the other side of it too. Would the store perhaps ship the gun to your local FFL? I know its a pain in the ass, but it could be a way of purchasing the gun/guns you wish to buy.

pohill
January 22, 2013, 06:59 PM
Like I said, I don't blame the store but it can get out of hand. For example, the Gallagher .54 uses a cartridge without a primer - ignition is via a musket cap on a nipple. They did not have to do a background check for that gun. They will not deal with a MA FFL at all, and they will not ship an antique to MA.
But it all works out. Background checks are quick and painless. They have a good supply of antiques, repros, powder, caps, balls and bullets, enough to keep me coming back.

dickydalton
January 22, 2013, 08:19 PM
:eek:They WILL come for your Black Powder weapons after they get the rest.
Do NOT let this happen!

woodnbow
January 22, 2013, 10:18 PM
"As long as ATF classifies cab & ball & black powder guns in general as non fire arms we'll be okay but if that changes......." With all due respect, it's not an ATF decision. It's in the '68 GCA.

Bishop Creek
January 22, 2013, 10:37 PM
dickydalton you are correct! The anti-gun groups stated years ago (back in the 1980s) that they would like to disarm Civil War reenactors who use muzzle loaders.

Hardcase
January 23, 2013, 02:42 PM
I expect that in the end, no federal legislation will pass that restricts any gun rights, including muzzleloaders. I also expect that any executive orders will merely be ineffective window dressing that, at best, will give the appearance of protecting society while actually doing nothing.

I don't say that because I think that proponents of the legislation and executive orders will give up, but because the opposition to those things will overwhelm any support.

I'm surprised by the number of folks in my area who don't care to own guns, but also don't want to see any further restrictions placed on them. It's very heartening to me. I have no idea if it's a national trend or just something local, but I like it.

maillemaker
January 29, 2013, 12:47 PM
Understand that we are never safe. Ever. It matters not if you like semi-auto rifles or muzzleloaders, precision bolt action rifles or airguns, the anti-gun forces do not care and will not rest until they have effectively disarmed everyone.

This is my belief as well. I hope no one is out there thinking that just because you shoot black powder that this issue does not concern you. Remember that old saying, "When they came for the Catholics, I didn't speak up because I wasn't Catholic..." and so on, until no one was left to speak up when they came for you.

The President's executive orders are largely harmless. That is because the President is not a king and cannot pass legislation directly. It's unlikely that there will be any legislation will be passed. In fact it is unlikely that the currently proposed AWB will even be allowed for a vote - they won't risk voting on it if they don't have the votes to win because then everyone who voted for it will get voted out of office for nothing.

We are probably pretty safe with black powder guns...until someone goes on a shooting spree with a pair of BP revolvers or a repeating carbine.

Steve

stepmac
January 29, 2013, 02:08 PM
I doubt the guns will go, but I'm not so sure about the powder and caps. All you've got to do to ruin and old muzzle loader is to make the ammo illegal. They can do that too. I'm sure some will try. I don't trust the feds any further than I can throw them by their eyelashes.

olmontanaboy
January 30, 2013, 09:42 AM
It will IMO. They want all your guns. It's not about safety it's about forcing us all down the slave road. All guns stand for freedom and individual rights and they want that breed out of us. Here in NJ it started years ago. I posted this on another muzzloading sight and think it is worth mentioning in this thread.

To anyone who thinks "I'm safe I only own black powder guns and I can buy them anytime over the counter". For years now, the state of New Jersey has ruled that all black powder guns, including muzzloading shotguns, rifles, pistols, BB guns and SLINGSHOTS, I repeat SLINGSHOTS are indeed firearms in the eyes of NJ law and subject to the same laws as any other gun. A firearms ID Card is required to purchase any rifle or shotgun, this can take over a year to obtain. Once you have obtained that card from the cheif of police only then can you apply for a seperate pistol permit to purchase a handgun, this is good for only one gun, a seperate permit is required for every handgun you want to buy. Carrying any of these on your person or in your car or truck even if unloaded, without the proper paperwork and going to or from an approved range can land you in jail, facing financial ruin and prison time.
Many of the guns on the contraband list of the antigunners are already banned in the Garden State. I remember when the law went into effect, you had four choises:
1. Turn then it. with NO compensation. No grandfathering in.
2. Have them altered by the state to render then unfireable (Welded to crap) at your own cost.
3. Remove them from the State (What most did).
4. Apply for a class 3 permit for eack now banned gun. NJ has never approved any class 3 permits to anyone but police and very few of them.

Some of the guns banned were:
M1 Carbine, AR-15 and clones, M1A's, AK's any handgun designed for a magazine of over 10 rounds. and many more including shotguns.

Here is how they work it. As far as I know they never sent the NJ State Police after anyone's guns, BUT If they do catch you in possession of said contraband for any reason (house fire or any reason they might enter your home) you are done for.
Make no mistake, they want them all and it is not about safety, it's about subjecting us to their will. I don't know where this is going to end but were in for a rough time of it.
I remember when this new law passed I had friends that worked
in several gunshops and they told me the State Police came in with a portable copy machine and made copys of the yellow purchaser forums

(I forgot the # of this form) but all the now banned firearms that were legally purchased in the past. Totally against the law but it did not matter, they did it anyway.

Remember once the Second Amendment is gone it's gone for good. We only have to look at other countrys to see what they have in store for us.
Gallant Americans gave their lives for the right to keep and bare arms and we inherited that right. The Ball is in our court. If we let our freedom slip away we don't desere it.
I will not live on my knees.

Double J
February 1, 2013, 12:19 PM
BP guns here are firearms for legal purposes. Some of the newer inline guns have thumbhole stocks. Some changes might happen if certain "appearance" standards get acted on. Many musket models have bayonet lugs, etc. Spooky times we live in.

10851Man
February 1, 2013, 03:16 PM
We may get to serve in the Army of the Confederacy again yet....

robhof
February 1, 2013, 04:09 PM
I just hope our sons and daughters in the armed services at the time realize that it's not about slavery this time, but about Becoming slaves to the Govt!!

deerslayer303
February 1, 2013, 04:19 PM
Well as a Military member, I took an Oath to Uphold the Constitution of the Unites States of America, and DEFEND it against ALL Enemy's Foreign and DOMESTIC!!! I will not carry out ANY order or support ANY order that violates that oath. And I had a talk with all my brothers in my section and we ALL unanimously agreed. I believe in the patriotic beliefs of my brothers in arms and I doubt any would carry out or support such an order.

Captainkirk
February 1, 2013, 09:57 PM
"BP guns here are firearms for legal purposes. Some of the newer inline guns have thumbhole stocks. Some changes might happen if certain "appearance" standards get acted on. Many musket models have bayonet lugs, etc. Spooky times we live in."


Indeed...yet Cabelas is able to ship blackpowder firearms right to my doorstep via UPS...how does that work? Because while Illinois views BP as a "firearm", BATF does not, if I am correct.

Newton24b
February 1, 2013, 10:10 PM
you forget the people running the show are people who think europe especially englad has overly liberal gun laws

olmontanaboy
February 2, 2013, 12:16 PM
Thank you Deerslayer, I would hope that our soldiers would see it that way. I think the present government would use UN troops for their dirtywork in such an event that they need to murder Americans in their homes to get their agenda implemented. Pray for the best but be prepared for the worst. What they propose is clearly unconsitutional. Time will tell, either we will prevail and be hailed as patroits or fail and go down in history as terroist. History is written by the victors. I beleive the American people's worst enemy is the leftist media. They hate us and use every trick in the book to destroy our traditional way of life, they hate the Constituion unless they can use it to advance their agenda. They want you and your family in line and doing exactly what they order you to do, against you princibles or not. They want total control, of you, and your family, and they can't accomplist this while you and I are free. Remember, freedom is just a word if you don't have it, and only free men and women own guns.

deerslayer303
February 2, 2013, 01:34 PM
See most Liberals "THINK" that Americans are past all that. But I personally believe you can only beat a dog so much, till he turns around and takes your hand off. just sayin.

10851Man
February 4, 2013, 03:20 PM
What shocks me is the 'new breed' of police officers who are trained that no gun is truly legally owned. I have discussed this with many who still train at the academy after I retired and they are advising them to confiscate ALL guns encountered (legal or not) and let the owners petition the courts to get them back....FWIW

mrbatchelor
February 4, 2013, 11:33 PM
We may get to serve in the Army of the Confederacy again yet....

Don't wish for this. You won't like it.

10851Man
February 5, 2013, 06:15 PM
@ mrbatchelor,

That's got nothing to do with my wishing for anything. It would only be decided by the actions of those powers that be...

10851Man
February 5, 2013, 06:21 PM
Check these flyers out when you have some free time....

http://publicintelligence.net/fbi-suspicious-activity-reporting-flyers/

orsogato
February 5, 2013, 08:54 PM
I really think any legislation involving black powder guns will be the black powder itself.

It's explosive and like anything else, if misused could cause harm.

Logan5579
February 6, 2013, 09:34 AM
I read through some of the articles provided in the link, being overly concerned with your own privacy and paying in cash seem to crop up a lot as "suspicious activity" :mad:

Money is for spending, and as long as I'm not breaking any laws its none of big brothers business where I am or what I do

OK, I'm done...
(steps off the soap box and goes back to work)

mrbatchelor
February 6, 2013, 10:55 AM
@ mrbatchelor,

That's got nothing to do with my wishing for anything. It would only be decided by the actions of those powers that be...

Well, Lewis Batchelor collected a Confederate retirement, but he isn't reported to have particularly liked the war. And Richard Batchelor was apparently a Loyalist with no record of service but no recorded open opposition to the Revolution. After all, we got the farm from George II, and biting the hand that feeds you is poor form.

So it isn't like my family doesn't have a little connection to some of the fighting. And I'd prefer we vote about it if we can. I didn't vote for the current administration. And I know for a fact that after the revolution my family was rather dividend between Federalist and Anti-Federalists. But we've never not been rabid 2A supporters.

10851Man
February 6, 2013, 12:42 PM
Our family, from Western Kentucky, fought for the Confederacy. Though they did not believe in slavery, but neither did they appreciate the Union invading the South and they fought under those pretenses, as I was told by my Great Grandfather during a 1980 visit to Trigg County, Kentucky. The family cemetery bears testament to how hard the Union worked to destroy the South.

The Hinson family lived just down the road and were childhood friends of our family. John 'Jack' Hinson was a Confederate sniper who operated in the Devil’s Elbow region of Trigg County and survived the war with 30+ kills. A historical marker stands at that location today.

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/misc/2006/sniper1.jpg

I cannot speak for them, and if possible, a vote would be best, but you know our Government and you need look no further to see how they treated the American Indian to realize they speak with a forked tongue.

Our Government asked me to do many things that were morally and ethically wrong during my service. My military service caused me great distrust of our administration.

Keep in mind, as you read my responses below, that my wife is Black. The Civil War was not fought to free the salves. It was fought to restore the Union and the resources of the South to the benefit of the Union. Slavery was a 'politically correct' vehicle under which cloak, furthered the Union's agenda. Had the war been solely fought to free the salves, they would have been free when it ended, and alas, they were not. Slaves after the war couldn't vote, couldn't own a gun and were still treated like animals.

If it came down to it, I would rather fight than live in oppression...FWIW

ZVP
February 8, 2013, 09:45 AM
doubt that you'll see the bad guys robbing and causing mayhem with C&B BP revolvers but I CAN see an honest citizen trying to defend house and family with one.
That been said, I doubt Obama has reserched the viability of banning BP guns.
I would think he'd see them as a Hobby rather than serious self defense guns, though they do cover the task well!
I think that the absense of supplys is nothing more than some panic buying on the Hobbiests part aand the shortage will recover sooner than the Smokeless shortage.
All Maanufacturers have "geared-up" to take up the slack.
JMHO,
ZVP

10851Man
February 8, 2013, 10:04 AM
DHS has reported buying ammunition in all various calibers to prevent the public from buying it...

mrbatchelor
February 8, 2013, 01:19 PM
> DHS has reported buying ammunition in all various calibers to prevent the public from buying it...

And this is a surprise?

10851Man
February 8, 2013, 01:27 PM
No, but the fact more people apparently do not know, or even care, is a surprise to me...

mrbatchelor
February 8, 2013, 01:43 PM
When I saw that Social Security was buying up millions of rounds last year - come on, Social Security - I went on a buying spree. Way before the current "hoarding" started.

I didn't see Sandy Hook coming. But I was pretty confident old Mitt wasn't going to win, and I was pretty confident that gun control was going to get a lot of attention.

My wife thought I was insane. Two weeks ago she apologized to me, and wanted to know how I knew. I told her I was a Boy Scout.

10851Man
February 8, 2013, 04:00 PM
The only plausible explanation would be they are buying to supply the OIG agents.

They carry .357 Sigs....

Rigmarol
February 8, 2013, 04:40 PM
I hope it all ends up as MilSurp later... (fingers crossed)

Darto
February 10, 2013, 12:46 AM
Already .454 and .451 roundball hard to find. all the following are out (online):
Cabelas, Track of Wolf, Midway, Natchez, Dixie, and all of several others I tried. Gunbroker auction has them still from small suppliers through their 'buy it now'. Apparently Speer and Hornady are buys making other boolits or buyers are starting to hoard .44 cap and ball (as a last resort legal pistol).

Reloading and casting supplies are cheaper to stock up on for folks who are fearful and putting in a supply against future gun laws.

I think I need to decide on fewer basic reloading powders and lay in some.

Logan5579
February 25, 2013, 05:20 PM
Well, theres no such thing as #11 primers anymore, at least not where I can get to em. Cabela's left me out in the cold for 2 months then emailed me today to tell me they probably weren't gonna fill my order, so I went ahead and cancelled my backorder with them. I can't hold it against them though as they have always been great to deal with in the past, they just can't get anything from the manufacturer. :(
Nobody local has #11s anymore, gotta give credit to my local gunshop owner though, he managed to scrounge around and find me 1 tin of CCI #11's! :D He wouldn't tell me where he found them at, but he had them under the counter waiting on me when I walked in today. He did have, and is still able to get #10s in limited quantity so I bought 500 of those from him and thanked him for keeping me and my BP addiction in mind. I converted my revolvers to #11 nipples several years back but never got rid of the #10 nipples, soooo I guess I'll switch back for awhile and save the #11's I have on hand for the smokepole.
Now you guys are just gonna have to quit buying everything up so I can get my supplies. :p

MarkVegas
February 25, 2013, 08:55 PM
My local Bass Pro finally has #11 caps, and one tin of Winchester Magnum #11 left. I got it and their last pound of Pyrodex P.

No .454 balls, bought some .457 hoping they fit....(Colt Walker, Colt Dragoon, Uberti 1860 and Pietta Remmy 1858). No musket caps for my .54 Sharps though.

Ammo restrictions is a backdoor gun control method as sure as fabricated gas shortages are a control on freedom of movement.

Obama may not be personally aware of BP firearms, but rest assured DHS and the rest of the alphabet soup sure as Hell do.

Tickling
February 25, 2013, 09:30 PM
If they're going after airsoft guns do you really think they'll let you keep your Black Powder firearms?

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awalook.htm