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View Full Version : Optics - it's between two?


mitranoc
November 20, 2012, 08:39 AM
Burris XTR 1-4x24

Eotech XPS2-0 with G23 magnifier

I figure I'll get the best of both worlds with my AR (target, pig hunting, and defense) with either of these set ups. Now it's a matter of just picking one?

Crow Hunter
November 20, 2012, 09:08 AM
Between the 2 combos you have listed.

Burris.

My experience with red dots with magnifiers has given me the opinion that they are a compromise that are the worst of both worlds rather than the best.

Heavy, poor eye relief, poor eyebox.

If you want/need magnification, go with the variable and get a high quality QD base like a Larue or ADM and a good set of BUIS.

wachtelhund1
November 20, 2012, 09:31 AM
Go with the Burris scope. I don't know your age, but I'm at a point where I need glasses for close work and can't see iron sights with out glasses. Red dots, I see two. I don't shoot or hunt with glasses. Scope allow me to focus the objective to see the reticle clearly.

jmr40
November 20, 2012, 10:08 AM
A 1-4X scope of some type is the best all around AR optic. If you don't mind added weight or expense something with an illiminated reticle wouldn't be bad. Not worth the expense, complexity, or weight to me.

HJ857
November 20, 2012, 10:21 AM
I use that same Burris and use it in competitions, sometimes in a dark house stage, which would be pretty much the same as inside your house. The reticle illumination is extremely useful for that. In conjunction with a weapon mounted flashlight the Burris reticle is really nice.

I use a Vortex SPARC on a different rifle and it's target view is very similar to an Aimpoint. Every time I shoot it I find myself wishing I had two 1x4 scopes, so my vote is definitely for the scope.

sailskidrive
November 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
I know this wasn't on your list, but having owned both I feel the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x is a nicer scope than the Burris. They're reasonably priced too. :)


http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/sailskidrive/AR15/8b57d84a.jpg

sc928porsche
November 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
I have ordered a NC Star 3-9x42/Red Dot combo for my SKS project. Good reviews on the product. Perhaps you might take a look. Might be what you are looking for.

sailskidrive
November 20, 2012, 03:06 PM
I guess a commie scope for a commie gun, but I wouldn't put Chinese anything on any of my ARs.

MarkCO
November 20, 2012, 03:08 PM
Actually, I would suggest the Burris MTAC 1-4. The reticle is less cluttered, the illumination is brighter, the controls are better. Been running them since before they were available for sale and they have been 100%.

mitranoc
November 20, 2012, 04:01 PM
Actually, I would suggest the Burris MTAC 1-4. The reticle is less cluttered, the illumination is brighter, the controls are better. Been running them since before they were available for sale and they have been 100%.
Today 03:06 PM


Is the MTAC a true 1 time mag?

MarkCO
November 20, 2012, 04:34 PM
Yes, true 1x on the bottom end.

mitranoc
November 20, 2012, 04:57 PM
I just checked out the MTAC - the reticle is nice. Could definitely save some money if I went that route.

MarkCO
November 20, 2012, 05:57 PM
I run the MTAC on my 3Gun competition rifle, on my .450 Bushmaster Carbine (Pigs and Timber AR) and on my AR set-up for night matches and shoot houses. Very versatile and functional.

mitranoc
November 20, 2012, 06:25 PM
I really need versatility, and that's why I sold my Aimpoint Micro. No discredit to the Aimpoint, becuase it was awesome & perfect for defense purposes. At this point in time this is my go-to-gun (with a soon to be addition of a 6.8 or 300BLK upper strictly for hunting). So between target, pig hunting, defense, and a good chance of getting involved in 3 gun...versatility is key.

Nathan
November 20, 2012, 07:36 PM
IMO, this is a best choice. . .

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRscPcnIXfkmqcDbHeDmlxzKGdNy2c_WMzShkczfWABxu6enm-IeMYtzkVZ

Burris AR-536 + Fastfire 4 or 8 MOA

I have a 1-4x. It is fine, but would never be a truely fast combat optic. 4x is ok at 300 with a 1 MOA dot, but 5x would be a little nicer. Also, a quick raise of the rifle, would have me looking through the red dot. Cheek weld would be crap, but don't need at short distance.

mitranoc
November 20, 2012, 08:41 PM
I have a 1-4x. It is fine, but would never be a truely fast combat optic.

Which is not a problem. Defense purposes are on the bottom of my list with my AR. My handgun is my first line of defense if the SHTF

chris in va
November 20, 2012, 09:25 PM
Per the 'commie' remark, Burris MTAC isn't made in the US either.

sholling
November 21, 2012, 03:13 AM
I have the Burris XTR 1-4x24 on my 6.8SPC and it's a very good scope. In the same price range I'd also give serious consideration to the Weaver Tactical 1-5x24 for about $650. The only thing I don't like about the Burris is the warranty. The scope itself is covered under the usual lifetime warranty but the warranty for the electronics is only a few year. One thing to note is there is an angle where the red LED is visible from the front. It's kinda of an odd ahead and overhead angle but it's something to be aware of.

I have an Eotech and a good magnifier on my 5.56 and it's nice but for hunting I'd rather have the scope.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20-%201080/IMG_0287a.jpg

madcratebuilder
November 21, 2012, 07:42 AM
There are many quality 1-4 AR scopes, that your pick. I like the Vortex Viper and if price is no concern the new Vortex Razor GenII 1-6 is like having smart bullets.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/madcratebuilder/AR15/16vortex_zpsf804e532.jpg

mitranoc
November 21, 2012, 08:21 AM
I'd imagine the Razor 1-6 is the cat's meow, but the Viper is more in my price range. I am also considering the Viper?

MarkCO
November 21, 2012, 09:42 AM
Burris MTAC 1-4 at a good price: http://www.copesdistributing.net/black-friday-burris-mtac-ballistic-4x24-riflescope-p-5692.html

mitranoc
November 21, 2012, 03:57 PM
That's a heck of a deal! Thanks for the link

mitranoc
November 21, 2012, 05:41 PM
Clicked the link to buy one, but apparently they're no longer available. Bummer!

sholling
November 22, 2012, 04:23 AM
Just an FYI I looked at the MTAC and passed on it because it's not a true 1x. It's a nice scope and it's not far off but I still prefer a true 1x. The cheapest illuminated 1-4x24 that I'd seriously consider is the Vortex Viper PST but that's just my preference for true 1x. If you don't need illumination there are cheaper alternatives with excellent optics like the Nikon M-223 1-4x20 and Weaver V3 1-3x20.

sailskidrive
November 22, 2012, 04:50 AM
I think those two are one inch tubes aren't they? Not 30mm...

mitranoc
November 22, 2012, 08:48 AM
I think those two are one inch tubes aren't they? Not 30mm...

Yes those are both 20mm

madcratebuilder
November 22, 2012, 08:49 AM
I think those two are one inch tubes aren't they? Not 30mm..

Yup, both are 1" tubes.

The Viper PST is 30mm.

In hind sight I wish I had bought a Viper PST the first time, but being the cheap bastage I am I wasted time and money before I got there. The Weaver-Nikon-Burris 1-4's are all around $250-300. The PST is $475 and worth it.

mitranoc
November 22, 2012, 08:52 AM
Change of plan. Found a used EOtech XSP2 from a friend, and he's selling it to me for dirt cheap. Will be picking this up, as well as a 1-4x illuminated scope for hunting. Thinking the Vortex PST?

scsov509
November 22, 2012, 12:14 PM
I have the Burris XTR 1-4x24 on my 6.8SPC and it's a very good scope. In the same price range I'd also give serious consideration to the Weaver Tactical 1-5x24 for about $650. The only thing I don't like about the Burris is the warranty. The scope itself is covered under the usual lifetime warranty but the warranty for the electronics is only a few year.

I had a Burris XTS-135 die out on me a few years out of warranty where dot stopped working. I contacted Burris to see what a repair would cost, thinking of course it would probably be cheaper to just purchase something new. Burris said send it in and they'd take care of it regardless of the warranty, so I mailed it on a Thursday and had a NIB XTS-135 in hand within a week. :D

MarkCO
November 22, 2012, 02:38 PM
The Burris is a 30mm tube and it is a 1x. In a direct comaprison between the various 1x low end scopes, none were "true" 1x. Even the 1X red dots are not right at 1x. However, the Vortex and Burris were essentially the same and in practical application, you can not tell the difference.

There is a little edge distortion at close range (like inside 10 yards or so) with most 1x optics which some people confuse for the scope not being "true" 1x. Between the Vortex and Burris MTAC, the Vortex has a slight advanteg for long range precision due to the thinner reticle. But, that also gives an advantage to the MTAC being faster with brighter illumination.

sholling
November 23, 2012, 03:49 AM
After looking at an MTAC I contacted Burris and they confirmed to me that it is not a true 1x. If anything it looked closer to my the view of a 1.2-4x that I have laying around. The Weaver V3 and Burris XTR are about as close to true 1x as you're going to get.

MarkCO
November 23, 2012, 09:14 PM
So how come the MTAC is not true 1x and the XTR is, when they use the same internals...

sholling
November 24, 2012, 10:35 PM
So how come the MTAC is not true 1x and the XTR is, when they use the same internals...
Just curious, where did you get that? The MTAC is 1/2 the price.

MarkCO
November 25, 2012, 09:29 AM
The MTAC is not US made, the XTR is US made...there is your price difference.

sailskidrive
November 25, 2012, 01:41 PM
I tried out my Viper PST on the SCAR this weekend and decided to bite the bullet and get the Vortex Razor 1.5-6. The eye relief on the ACOG leaves a lot to be desired.

While I can't really say anything bad about my former Burris MTAC, I would probably choose the Viper again as I like the reticle a little more.

Below, I can't fully extend the LOP on the SCARs stock to fit my frame with out compromising field of view in the ACOG.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv54/sailskidrive/AR15/37ABF617-9004-461E-BF3C-74E16D5378E8-5087-000010DCBFA63C9A.jpg

mitranoc
November 25, 2012, 03:31 PM
The MTAC is not US made, the XTR is US made...there is your price difference.

So between the two, is there a noticeable difference in performance, quality, fit & finish, etc.?

MarkCO
November 25, 2012, 06:10 PM
So between the two (MTAC v. XTR), is there a noticeable difference in performance, quality, fit & finish, etc.?

I ran a 1-4 XTR for 2 years and have now run the MTAC for 2 years. My scores are higher now. :D

For high speed work, the MTAC is better since the reticle is less cluttered. Also, if you want to shoot the red dot, the MTAC is also better because the illumination is brighter and the actual illuminated surface is more center heavy. As for fit and finish of the optic, I would say they are about even. The glass on both is very good. I still don't think you can touch the MTAC until you get up around $1000 or so. I shoot somewhere in the range of 10K rounds a year on my match rifle, about half of that in match conditions tossing my rifle into barrels, flopping on the ground, hitting barricades and running splits in the range of .15 for probabably 4K of that. Never had an issue.

mitranoc
November 25, 2012, 07:29 PM
Good to know that I can save a little money and go with the MTAC :D

mitranoc
November 25, 2012, 07:55 PM
Very curious about the Leupold VX-R's as well? Similar price range..

MarkCO
November 25, 2012, 08:27 PM
Very curious about the Leupold VX-R's as well? Similar price range..

Quality optic as well. For me, the reticle is too thin and picking up the holds at speed took too much time. The smaller target of the reticle, for illumination precludes shooting it like a speed dot. For pure precision target shooting, it might be a little better. For defense and hog hunting, not as good as the MTAC. Street price on the MTAC is probably $70 or so less than the VX-R.

mitranoc
November 25, 2012, 08:36 PM
Gotcha. Would the same apply to their Pig Plex model?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/194133/leupold-vx-r-hog-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-125-4x-20mm-fire-dot-pig-plex-reticle-matte

MarkCO
November 25, 2012, 08:54 PM
Probably. But I must admit I only looked through the Pig reticle for like 10 seconds, indoors at SHOT.

The speed of the MTAC comes in part from the circles, which your eye wants to center. The wider thick stadia lines are okay when at the bench, but when you need speed, they are just not as fast.

The speed aspect of the MTAC is superior and I don't think you give anything up to the Leupold or Vortex that is measureable when precision is needed, unless you have a lot of time to settle in comfy like.

I use a Vortex PST on my Long Range sniper rig, but I only use that when I am going to be shooting past 600 yards and I have time to spare.

mitranoc
November 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
I'm going to check out the MTAC tomorrow at Gander Mountain. It seems that scope will suit my needs the best.

ronl
November 26, 2012, 09:31 AM
I just picked up a Horus Vision Talon 1000 1-4x24 and it is an excellent optic. True 1x, illumination, and a well thought out reticle make it a very comfortable optic to use up close. Put the target in the circle and fire. When cranked up, since it is a FFP optic, the H-50 reticle comes to life making holdover and windage extremely easy. It is, in my opinion, the best of all worlds. I prefer it to my EOtech, because of the versatility it adds in being able to engage targets out much further than the naked eye. (I need all the help I can get in that department).