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Pfletch83
November 8, 2012, 10:59 PM
The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool,the gauge/caliber can be used by anyone that can shoulder a long arm.

The ammo situation is being cleared up due to the handguns that have arrived on the market.

The .410 guns are light weight and have a low recoil.

Ammo is also lacking in the weight and bulk area,which allows for more shells to be carried for the same weight as larger gauge guns.

The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at.

For those that are new to shotgunning I would recommend a .410,not only because of the low recoil,but because the limited ammount of shot will force the shooter to practice more and in turn become a better shotgunner with the heavy hitters on down the line.


DFG Mk-1

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/Pfletch83/DSCF0021.jpg

DFG MK-2

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd369/Pfletch83/DRFGMK2.jpg

jmortimer
November 9, 2012, 01:13 AM
000 buckshot and the Brenneke slug will smoke just about anything short of large/dangerous game. 800 plus ft lbs

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 01:55 AM
That depends on what you mean by "putting down" a threat. Many would say that a heavier load is more likely to not just stop but to end a thret by rendering a bg incapable of getting off return fire I suppose a .410 has its place as a defensive weapon and especially if one is physicly unable to handle someting larger, but it wouldn't be my choice.

Actually, I am supposed to take my daughter to the range this weekend and plan on renting her a semi-auto 20 gauge. Recoil aside, I don't think she could handle the weight of my 12 gauge Citori with 30 inch barrels and a fixed breech.

If I want to force myself to better center my hits with the 12, I can easily use a tight choke or even mimic a 28 gauge by loading 3/4 ouncers. But should I have to ever take care of business, I want the 12 gauge load.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 03:45 AM
To each their own,just remember that it isn't the gauge of the gun but the shooter using it.

kozak6
November 9, 2012, 06:31 AM
I don't think a .410 shotgun is a good choice for a new shotgunner.

I would say the small payload and expensive ammo are more likely to cause discouragement and less practice, resulting in lesser proficiency.

You can make a reasonable argument for using a smaller gauge shotgun for defense, but it doesn't mean you have to go all the way.

jmortimer
November 9, 2012, 10:08 AM
The O/P is right. Here is Brass Fetcher video and the Winchester five 000 Buckshot blows right through 12" of ballistic gelatin -very impressive and in fact it will do 20" so it slightly exceeds the maximum FBI standard:
http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/410BoreShotgun.htm
Here is article from mcb-homis web site entitled "The Brenneke 410 Silver Slug
Why this Slug is my favorite 410 slug commercially available." The Brenneke will out penetrate standard 10mm ammunition - it is "enough gun" with around 900 ft lbs and at short range in a home will, again, smoke any intruder as will the 5 ooo buckshot loads:
http://mcb-homis.com/bren/bren.htm

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 11:29 AM
.410 ammo isn't as costly as it was a few years ago.

I would actually like to try a 28 gauge with the same setup.

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 12:52 PM
The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at.

It may not be anything to sneeze at and it may be capable of putting down a two legged threat, but what is more likely to put an instant end to any threat; a 12 or a .410 given similar munitions? It is really that simple.

The closest test I know of is this one from the box of truth, and it isn't totally analagous due to it neing with a Taurus Judge and barrel length being a factor in creating velocity. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

I would add that some are concerned with over penetration and collateral damage. Ask yourelf how much energy is delivered on target by 9 pieces of lead compared to 3, with both loads having the same total mass. I believe it is approximately the same. One difference is that if one of the 3 oversize pieces misses it is more likely to go through a wall and hit your neighbor. If one or more smaller pieces miss they are less likely to have the energy to reach the neighbor and if they did reserve energy is likely to be minimal.

jmortimer
November 9, 2012, 12:58 PM
^ This logic dictates that a 10 gauge would be even better. Why do people choose a 9mm when the 10mm is far "better." Dead is dead. Once you hit a minimum level, more is not necessarily better at close range. Five 000 buckshot loads that go 20" inches in ballistic gelatin are plenty good enough. 800 to 900 ft lbs of energy is plenty at close home defense range of 7 to 10 yards.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 01:03 PM
Either one if the user can keep their head and shoot straight.

For home defense #4 Buck in any gauge is a good load.

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 01:57 PM
Either one if the user can keep their head and shoot straight.

I thought we were talking about home defense use. Most users of home defense weapons are not professionals and are more likely to feel the pressure of any encounter with an intruder, which is likely to be in the middle of the night. Hence, they are better off with with a weapon that is more forgiving of less than perfect straight shooting.

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 02:09 PM
The question is the adequacy of a .410 for home defenses and you have to bring up 10 gauges, 9mm and 10mm. As for the 10, at some point, anyone recognizes that there is such a thing as overkill, but in some situations I suppose one would wish thay had a 10. I am no handgun shooter, but believe the reason some choose the 10mm over the 9mm is knockdown power. Would you advocate the use of a .22 short for HD over a 9mm? You can put the intruder down with a .22 if you shoot straight and keep your cool.

idek
November 9, 2012, 03:57 PM
The .410 load is nothing to sneeze at, and I'd use it if I really disliked 12-gauge recoil. But people more knowledgeable than I say that the only sure way to stop a conflict immediately is with a hit to the CNS. #1 buck reliably penetrates deep enough to hit vitals, and 15 of them can be packed into a standard 12-gauge shell. This basically triples my chances of hitting the CNS with a COM hit as compared to the 5-pellet .410 load.

That's not to say the .410 is a bad choice, but for a lot of people, it's not a better choice.


As for the 9mm to 10mm analogy, I understand that there can be such a thing as too much gun for some people. And if a .410 is what a person can comfortably handle, that's fine. But I believe the other factor in that equation is cost of ammo/practice. I suspect if 10mm ammo were as cheap as 9mm ammo, a lot more people would be using the bigger gun.

Among shotguns, the bigger 12 or 20-gauges are already cheaper to shoot than the .410.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 04:17 PM
The .410 has a lower recoil and can help in fast follow up shots due to a faster recovery rate.

idek
November 9, 2012, 04:39 PM
The .410 has a lower recoil and can help in fast follow up shots due to a faster recovery rate.
I don't think anyone will argue with you on that point. They may argue that a .410 could likely require you to take more follow up shots that you would if you used a 12-gauge instead.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 04:55 PM
They can argue that point if they want,but I'll reply with "a hit with a .22 is always better than a miss with a .45"

The .410 doesn't cost as much as folks say,sure the prices are high for anything these days but it's no worse than buying ammo for other firearms.

.45 Colt costs more than .410 ammo but people still use the .45 and reload for it.

SHR970
November 9, 2012, 06:05 PM
TheKlawMan originally wrote: I thought we were talking about home defense use. Most users of home defense weapons are not professionals and are more likely to feel the pressure of any encounter with an intruder, which is likely to be in the middle of the night. Hence, they are better off with with a weapon that is more forgiving of less than perfect straight shooting.

At house hold distances, the patterning differences between any of the gauges / bores is insignificant. At 7 yards (maximum distance in most households) we are talking fist sized at worst with cylinder bore choke.

In the case of a 410 vs. 12 gauge and 000 Buck a 410 is 1/2 of a 12 gauge; 3" load vs. 3" load with the velocity difference being within 100 fps. A single CoM hit with a 410 will certainly be a game changer in all but the most statistically insignificant of cases. And as far as the most statistically insignificant of cases, a 12 gauge would also probably fail too.

A small of stature or physical ability limited person confident with a 410 and proper ammo is well if not better served than the same person afraid of or unable to handle the kick of a 12 gauge. I know a man who has Brittle Bone Disease. He is confined to a wheel chair, short of stature and physically limited. He absolutely can not fire a 12 gauge without causing physical damage to himself. A short youth 410 with a 2 1/2" shell is within his limitations as well as a 380 pistol. Mobility issues aside, he is able to use 'marginal weapons' effectively for defense of himself and his wife. God have mercy on the scum sucking vermin that invades his home.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 07:08 PM
Also let it be known that I recommend the 3-inch #4 buck for a reason.

The 2-1/2 '000' load from a shotgun barrel has too much punch and would most likely be a shoot through of the bg,The #4 Buck has less of a chance of a complete pass through,the full choke barrels found on most single shot and pump/auto loaders holds a tight pattern.

The '000' load is best used say at inside the front/back yard distances from a Modified-Cylinder choke shotgun.

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 07:17 PM
It isn't just patterning differences, but the number of individual hits with individual wound channels. Given that both shots are on the money, the 12 will have two to three times that of the .410. That increases the likelihood of instantly decommissioning a BG.

You forget overpenetration. One reason for using shotgun pellets is to avoid shooting through a bg or walls and into whomever may be beyond.

No one is saying that a .410 is not a good option for those with unique physical demands.

If anyone wants to continue to trumpet the .4i0's superiority over the 12, please talk about what law enforcement agencies prefer.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 07:26 PM
I wasn't talking about law enforcement,but if you want to go there.

How many police officers are issued AR-15's now?

I mean sure the 12 is still around but what are some of the reasons shotguns have been falling out of favor with Police forces?

I'll wait for your reply.

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 08:02 PM
Not to be rude, but officers utilize a myriad of weapons such as rifles, handguns, shotguns, and tasers. This is a shotgun forum and the thread is about shotguns so try to stick on point.

I will say that the AR-15 is the go to weapon for certain tasks, but for some it is the shotgun. Often an officer with one will work in a team with an officer with the other.

The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.

Pfletch83
November 9, 2012, 08:32 PM
But were we talking about Law Enforcement in the first place?

We were talking about shotguns in the home for self defense use by a non governmental (heavy on the 'Mental' in some cases) employed citizen.


Also with a new upper and magazine an AR-15 can be turned into a shotgun (it is a Modular weapons system after all :p )

TheKlawMan
November 9, 2012, 09:33 PM
This is going no where and I don't wish to be rude to you. Bye

OkieCruffler
November 10, 2012, 06:40 AM
I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the new idea that the .410 is a great defensive round. No doubt it will work, but so will a pointy stick. The #1 rule of any defensive gun should be "practice". If you can afford to run a couple hundred of those exotic .410 rounds thru your weapon every couple of months then more power to you. And the arguement "a hit with a 22 beats a miss with a .45" is pretty well countered by "a hit with a 45 beats a hit with a .22".

jmortimer
November 10, 2012, 10:26 AM
Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder. It will penetrate 20" of ballistic gelatin which is technically too much gun in a home but the FBI 19" max is close enough. The Brenneke slug will out penetrate a 10mm HP with about 900 ft lbs of energy. When did 000 buckshot or Brenneke slugs become exotic? This is crazy talk. If you watch the video I linked above and you see five Winchester 000 buckshot balls blow right through 12" of ballistic gelatin like it was nothing then and you still think a .410 won't work then you had better contact the FBI and tell them that you are a ballistics savant and they have it all wrong and need you to "learn them" on ballistics.

OkieCruffler
November 10, 2012, 10:49 AM
It has nothing to do with if the .410 can perform or not, it has everything to do with will you (or whoever chooses one) will practice enough with it to hit with those loads. The OP is recomending the .410 to inexperienced shotgunners to me thats a pretty big stretch.
And if anyone is contacting the FBI for being a "Ballistics savant" it should be you so they can start arming their agents with .410's. Don't try to snark the snarker.

jmortimer
November 10, 2012, 10:53 AM
That was funny - I'm designating it for FBI entry duty.

TheKlawMan
November 10, 2012, 02:48 PM
OkieCruffler, I never made it clear, but that is what bothers me about the OP's position on what a great defensive tool the .410 is. I don't want first time shotgunners buying his great defensive tool. Even if one becomes very proficient with the .410, I think a larger gauge is more likely to get the job done.

Per AMMUNITION FOR THE SELF-DEFENSE FIREARM by "Anonymous" published by Chuck Hawks at http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm :

The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs . . . There are some odd buckshot loads for the .410 (with three 000 pellets) and I advise you to ignore them. . . .

jmortimer
November 10, 2012, 03:02 PM
^ Worthless article by "Anonymous" relying on Marshall and Sanow and way short on facts. Far better information is available including objective ballistic testing which I linked.

TheKlawMan
November 10, 2012, 04:03 PM
The introduction of one of the aricles you linked provides that :

One of the smallest shotguns available, the .410 Bore should be considered among the lowest-performing shotguns for hunting and self-defense. . . . using buckshot or a limited-expansion slug the .410 Bore can be relied upon to stop an attacker given greater than ordinarily careful shot placement.

So you are recommending the use of one of the lowest-perfoeming shotguns for self-defense?:D

You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment.

I have some buddies that shoot the .410. One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's. BigJim shoots a .410, when he wants to punish himself, and I don't think of him as a poor shot. Of course it is difficult for a little guy like Jim to handle anything more than a .410.:p

jmortimer
November 10, 2012, 06:03 PM
^ I thought you checked out on this thread a few posts ago. Between you and Mr. Okie I might have to check out and say Uncle. I'm wrong about 800 to 900 ft lbs of energy and 5 .36 caliber balls that go 20" in ballistic gelatin in one shot. I'm wrong about the Brenneke slug that out penetrates 10mm HPs. I like the balance of low recoil and the terminal ballistics. But I digress, again.

idek
November 11, 2012, 12:04 AM
In this little debate, I feel like I've been in the "I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge" camp.

But trying to be objective about it, I toyed around with some of the numbers. The purpose isn't necessarily to compare it directly to a 12 gauge, but rather to think of the .410's merits in their own right. I'm basing it all on the Winchester load jmortimer linked.

First off, I wanted to know how much a 000 buck ball weighed (they don't put that information on buckshot boxes after all). I don't have 000 balls laying around, so I figured it mathematically. A standard 000 ball should be .36" in diameter, which would yield a volume around .400cc. Multiplied by the standard density of lead and then converting to grains puts us right at 70 grains per pellet.

At the listed velocity of 1135 fps, each pellet would have 200 ft/lbs of energy.
*I believe jmortimer cited 900 or 800 total, which would actually put each pellet at 160-180 ft/lbs. Maybe those were based on the energy farther down range. Or maybe the actual velocity is less than stated on the box. Or maybe the balls aren't quite 70 grains.

Whatever the case, for comparison, an 95-grain .380acp bullet at 955 fps has 192 ft/lbs of energy.

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that the .410 Winchester load is like hitting a target with five .380acp bullets at once. The 70 grain balls have a smaller diameter, less momentum, poorer sectional density, and NO type of bullet design. A true bullet can be designed for a desired balance of penetration and expansion, to destroy or disrupt an optimal amount of tissue and dump all its energy into a target. A spherical projectile can't really be tweaked to optimize the damage it causes.

Nonetheless, 160-200 ft/lbs of energy per ball is a significant amount, and maybe we could say shooting the .410 000 load is a little like shooting a target with five LRN .380 bullets.


I haven't seen anyone's results from patterning the .410 000 load, but from what I've read/heard, the patterns get ugly by 20 yards, but I've seen claims of 4" patterns at 7 yards out of a long gun, which is probably good enough for HD purposes.


Moving on, I was curious about how recoil would really come out (mathematically). I decided to check out Federal's 00 (9 pellet) reduced recoil 12 gauge load while I was at it. (I chose the reduced recoil version because its velocity is very similar to the .410 Winchester load)

- The weight of shot from the .410 load is about 350 grains. Weight of shot from the 12 gauge load is about 492 grains.
- I don't know the exact amount of powder used, but based on comparable reloading data, I estimated the .410 uses 15 grains of powder while the 12 gauge uses 25 grains.
- Velocities: 1135 fps for the .410; 1145 fps for the 12 gauge.
- For gun weight, I used Mossberg 500 specs: 6 pounds for the .410; 7.5 pounds for the 12 gauge.

Based on those figures entered into the Handloads.com recoil calculator, the .410 load showed 11.04 ft/lbs of free recoil, while the 12 gauge showed 18.59 ft/lbs of free recoil. In this case, the .410 has about 60% as much recoil as the 12-gauge.

It is worth noting, however, that many gas-operated 12-gauge may reduce felt recoil by about a third, which would make the perceived kick of the reduced recoil 12-gauge load similar to the Winchester .410 load while still throwing 40% more lead at the target. (Semi-auto .410s aren't much of an option)

In the end, my opinions are still about the same. I don't think the .410 is a terrible idea, but I'll stick with my 12 gauge ...not because I think I'm a big tough guy, but because I'm very familiar with it and prefer the greater number of projectiles per shot (ideally, 15 pellets of #1). Plus I have a recoil reducing stock that negates much of that issue.

However, for anyone wanting wanting something lighter, quieter, and softer kicking, the .410 with Winchester 000 ammo seems like a legit option.

biohazurd
November 11, 2012, 01:34 AM
I wouldnt feel under gunned with a 410. I stash a mossberg 500 .410 with a pistol grip in my car sometime. Shooting the 12 with just pistol grip is brutal but the 410 is fun to shoot and suprisingly accurate at short range.

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 02:34 AM
I can understand that you think more is better and in some cases I'll agree with you.

But with one you have to take the other.

What good is an ounce of lead at close range if the targeted threat isn't hit?

The user needs to learn how their scattergun will act no matter the gauge.

Also keep in mind that others in a family unit need to learn how to use the same HD weapon as the man of the house,and which would be easier to handle for a child a 12 gauge or a .410,what about an elderly family member,or the lady of the house that might not be thrilled about getting knocked around?

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 04:17 AM
Go back and read what I have posted and I clearly acknowledged that there is a place for the .410. The problem is your claim that it was a great tool, when it isn't unless for reasons you are limited to one. If handling recoil is the problem, how does a gas operated 20 gauge semi stack up against a pump action .410 in the felt recoil department? Why would you think that a .410 would be more likely to hit a target than a 20 or a 12? As for the over penetration issue, I see you still won't confront it.

I am only on line this late becasue I had some thing a bit more important to do. The fact is that the .410 is generally a very poor choice for home defense.

If a young child, a woman, or an elderly person ever has to use a shotgun for Self Defense, I submit they are a lot better off with a 20 gauge auto loader than a pump .410. Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads).

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 06:10 AM
I have stated that #4 Buck from any gauge will be more than enough for home defense.

I stated that '000' buck has a likely chance of punching through the threat.

I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).

as for the latest news on the little shotgun that can...seems to be a new round from hornady looks to be a better buck and "ball" load than the PDX-1 .410 from Winchester *I just hope it can be used in shotguns as well as the revolvers*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtdYVk4ugHc

SHR970
November 11, 2012, 01:41 PM
TheKlawMan originally wrote:You continue to overlook the risks incumbent on the use of over penetrating slugs in a home defense environment. A true statement to be considered for any ammo choice.

Since we are looking at 410 penetration vis a vis a 12 gauge, how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher. :rolleyes: This is one of the loads that so many on this forum are fond of. Federal Premium #1 buck ran from ~15-17.5" too. So for all those who would only look at the data point for the 410 ammo to discredit its use without looking at the data for the 12 gauge, you are doing yourself a disservice or engaging in cognitive dissonance.

Now as far as spread is concerned....at 7 yards you need to have your muzzle on target; pointing in the general direction doesn't cut the mustard. That holds true for a 12 gauge, a 410 bore, and everything in between.

On a parting note, I have noticed the trend over the last decade to make the mighty 12 gauge perform more like the smaller bores in both payload and velocity. If the smaller bores are so inferior, why all the effort to emulate the smaller slower payloads? ;)

jmortimer
November 11, 2012, 03:30 PM
The reduced recoil slugs and buckshot that are not hard cast penetrate better than "full recoil loads."

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 04:55 PM
how about we look at the fact that the Federal LE127 00 ALSO penetrated ~20" as tested by Brassfetcher.

First, the LE127 to my knowledge is a general law enforcement load not specifically designed for HD

Which is why the first shells in my HD tube are Remington Ultra Home Defense high density BB loads and the last three are Federal Premium Personal Defense 00 (similar to LE127 but FPS is only 1145 FPS compared to 1325 FPS for the LE127). Then, if the Chinese Red Gaurd attacks along with the Cuban International Zombie Brigade I have an ample supply of slugs - ALL 12 Gauge.

I am amazed that anyone continues to argue the superiority of the .410. Their arguement boils down at best to it will get the job done if accurately delivered. The same is true of the .22 and I suppose of a rock if slung with the skill of David at Goliath. Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410.

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 05:08 PM
I also said that the '000' load is more for front/back yard ranged defense (in other words for use outside the home).

Eventually when you began to back pedal on your original position which was that "The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool". To most of us, that means home defense and home defense confrontations most often occur inside the home. You only talked about triple ought's over penetration well AFTER I brought up the concerns with over penetration.

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 07:58 PM
All three will with the right loads.

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 08:19 PM
WRONG. Unless by the "right loads" you mean load them all with the equivalent of a .410 shotshell.

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 08:27 PM
By the "right loads" I mean the same type of pellets.

How did you not understand that?

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 08:42 PM
So you really think that if you deliver a load of ten 000 Buck Shot pellets or a load of three in a .410 at a point centered 9 inches to the right of a BG's cener mass you are just as likely to stop them dead in their tracks assuming he is shot at a distance of 7 yards. I think not, but that roughly half your pellets are going to miss vitals and you may only get a single hit. You are likely to get three or perhaps 4 hits on vitals with the 12 gauge. I assume that both pattern over an area of about the same radius.

jmortimer
November 11, 2012, 09:04 PM
The following is a from a thread started by the owner of Beartooth Bullets entitled "Teeth for the .410 Bore" with 4 00 buckshot balls:
"This load. out of the .410 shotguns we own here, will produce a neat, square pattern that is about five inches square with the four buckshot when patterning at 35 yards! *Not bad for a little .410 2 1/2" shotshell. *This load I described punches out the bore at about 1220 fps from our shotguns. *More fire under the charge just blows the pattern apart in my experience.

Now, about on target performance! *This load is really amazing when all four of those 44 grian pills impact a 4"-5" area at once on something the size of a 70-90 pound feral dog! *Out to 45 yards (farthest tested), it is lights out! *No recovered buckshot (remember these are fairly hard), and boiler room hits create nearly instant incapacitation, even on adrenalized critters of this size."
http://www.shootersforum.com/shotguns-shotgunning-shotshell-reloading/2805-teeth-410-bore-shotun.html

jmortimer
November 11, 2012, 09:12 PM
Here is review from Cabelas for the Winchester Super X 3 pellet 000 with Saiga
"5 out of 5
Mooseeyes
Sonora, CA
Age:65 and over
Gender:Male
Would you recommend this product to a friend? Yes
Great load. . .and not just for "The Judge"!
July 2, 2011
I bought some of these in 3", to use and test in my wife's house gun. . .a Saiga semi-auto, Russian made on an AK action, using the 10 round mags. Out at the range, at 30 feet (what I figure to be the max. distance for inside the house defense), these are the "bomb"!
Very tight pattern. . .inside the size of a large orange! I am ordering another 100 rounds of the 3" 000 buck. The hole put into the paper at the range is the size of a .45, and they plum punch out the 1/4" press board target backing. These WILL get the job done!"

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 09:20 PM
jm, I know you are more intelligent than this. Almost anything will do the job if delivered with precision. The problem is that in an emergency that may take place in the dark of night and with one full of adrenaling it isn't so easy to deliver a pricise shot and that is why the 12 or 20 gauge is a much more prudent tool than the .410 unless for some reason one is limited to its use.

What I have tried to explain is that given a less then precise shot, the odds of delivering a threat ending punch is more likely with the larger gauge. If you get half your .410's five pellets outside the vital area you may get 2 or three inside it, but with a 12 you have ten pellets (assuming Winchester Magnum Super X 3" 000 BS) and you are likely to get two more hits into vitals.

TheKlawMan
November 11, 2012, 09:24 PM
This is unbelievable. Do what you want.

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 09:25 PM
I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.

Pfletch83
November 11, 2012, 10:08 PM
Also if you go back through this thread you will see that I mentioned the use of #4 buck in post #10 and backed up afore mentioned post with #18


Just admitt it,you hate the .410 because it's a .410 and spouting bs some how makes you feel better about yourself.

Also let it be known that I said the .410 was a great defensive tool,I never claimed it was the best defensive tool (Because the "best" is too subjective from person to person and to say that it's the best would in fact be a false claim)

SHR970
November 11, 2012, 10:56 PM
Klaw; why so defensive? I was agreeing with your point and provided additional information concerning a 12 gauge that further emphasizes your point. How does that translate into trying to further promote that one is superior to the other?

If I wanted to get into the more is always better argument I would recommend the 18 pellet 00 Buck 3 1/2" shells. Conversely if I wanted to get into the less is always better argument I would suggest a Judge firing 2 1/2" shells of #7 1/2. Both would be examples of cognitive dissonance on my part as both can be effective but neither choice is a good all around choice.

Ask yourself which load is most likely to do the job if delivered with the same degree of accuracy; the 12, 20, or the .410. Statistically there will always be those outliers that are the stuff of anecdotes and articles. At household distances a hit in the boiler room with any of the three will do the job.......statistically speaking.

340 Weatherby
November 12, 2012, 01:38 AM
Speaking from experience, one 7 1/2 shotgun pellet from fifty yards away hitting me in the back of the leg, through Levi's, REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION!
This was on a quail hunt years ago down in Baja. I've also killed a coyote with one shot, with an ounce and a quarter of sixes at forty yards. all of this makes me respect any shotgun with any load. I think an ounce of #9's inside a house would stop anyone. And if it didn't the second shot at half the distance would for sure. #4 buck? I reserve that strictly for sea-going mammals that steal fish.

Pfletch83
November 12, 2012, 06:16 AM
Well if you trust birdshot,then by all means go for it,but I'll stick with #4 buck.

SoilworK777
November 12, 2012, 07:13 AM
???

three-fifty-seven
November 12, 2012, 07:12 PM
The fact is that law enforcement's overwhelming choice of shotguns is the 12 gauge.

I am not taking the .410's side, but law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.

Pfletch83
November 12, 2012, 08:14 PM
anger some but I have been thinking about the 28 gauge defensive shotgun for awhile.

My thoughts are that the 28 gauge would be just as good a defender with the ammo to fit the job.

The only thing that would make it better is if the 28 gauge was offered in a 3-inch chamber so the pellet count can be bumped up.

scottd913
November 12, 2012, 10:26 PM
Note to the op you seem awfully confrontational with people who make a point or may i say counter point to your opinion on this issue. Yes i do agree with klawman as he is very well respected here and quite knowledgeable.
the 12 GA. round is far superior and you can try to sell your opinion all you wish. If all i had was a .410 that is all i would use and i would wish for a 12 GA. I'm sure. I'm not a ballistic expert but what i do know is that when i was a child my grandfather handed me a .410 and said when i grow up i could use a 12 GA.
^^^^^^^^^^NOTE TO THE STAFF^^^^^^^^^^
i am surprised that the staff allowed this thread to continue as a argument.
The more i read the more i was disgusted by the argumentativeness.
This is why i don't frequent some of the other forums.

TheKlawMan
November 13, 2012, 02:17 AM
Pshaw. You got me blushing, Scott.:o

mavracer
November 13, 2012, 12:17 PM
I remember hearing about an officer involved shooting that happened at around 15 feet inside a parking garage,the officer was using a department issued 12 gauge with 9-pellet '00 buck.

The officer unloaded every round he had in the shotgun,before going to his handgun,the whole time shots were being fired the BG was advancing on the officer,the perp then gave up when the officer drew his handgun.

All pellets hit their mark in the perp's upper body.

After all was said and done the officer admitted that he should have went for a head shot,the perp died on the way to the hospital.

So please oh wise one tell me again how the 12 is so much better than any other gauge.
Please oh wise one you think he'd have been better off with a 410 and 1/2 the # of pellets. BTW this also answers JM's question.
Once again I ask, how is 800 to 900 ft lbs of 5 000 buckshot pellets not going to smoke an intruder.
The only way a 410 is going to be any more effective is if you can actually shoot it faster. Something I figured out years ago in bowling pin shoots speed shooting shotguns is a big mans sport. you just can't cheat physics much.

scottd913
November 13, 2012, 01:56 PM
law enforcement's choice to use the 12 gauge is not a decision that is based on what is the best tool to use but what is simply available to the agency.

not sure where you live but i live in Dallas Texas where the Dallas police annual budget is a whopping 233 million dollars ( i just looked it up ) and there officer's provide there own shotguns according to several friends of mine who own and work in local gun shops around the area and they ALL BUY 12 GA. SHOTGUNS ...now again I'm no ballistic expert and i certainly do not have to defend myself or have a need to protect your lives on a daily basis but .............i think that if i were to purchase a weapon to protect myself i would use the advice of those who do that very thing!!!

I'm still scratching my head as to why this "discussion" is still up?

Strafer Gott
November 13, 2012, 03:13 PM
A little bit of powder, and lots of lead, kills the game dead, dead, dead.
True then, true now. Don't underestimate shotguns. Even the little ones. It's a suckers bet, you probably won't live to regret. Germans wanted to ban them in WWI. Too nasty.

tgreening
November 13, 2012, 05:56 PM
I can say this much...When I was a kid my single shot .410 put a boatload of rabbit on the table, as well as quail and pheasant. My brother did equally well with his 3-shot pumper. My dads 12 gauge wingmaster got the job done obviously but in the end dead was dead, and based on my recollections of digging pellets out of carcasses, it never seemed to take more than a few.

Dads rabbits were never any "deader" than ours. :)

I think any advantage he may have had with getting pellets on target due to having more in the air was probably offset by the greater difficulty in controlling the bigger, heavier, harder kicking 12 gauge.

I dont know that I see any real difference in shot placement requirements between the 2 when in an HD situation. On average I don't see the ranges involved allowing for much spread. If you hit it with the 12 odds are you'd hit it with the .410 as well.

It's kind of funny that you see the same argument in the handgun forums. "Which would you rather get shot with, a .22 or a 10mm?" The answer for me is neither! Odds are a hit with either will have me on the floor squealing like a teenage girl at a Justin Bieber concert.


Lots or people are completely happy to use a 9mm or .380 as a HD weapon. Which would you rather get shot with, one of those or a .410 load?

Pfletch83
November 18, 2012, 02:35 PM
Exactly what I was getting at Tgreening.

As long as the shooter is up to snuff it really doesn't matter what caliber or gauge is used.

TheKlawMan
November 18, 2012, 09:13 PM
Using you argument that as long as the shooter is "up to snuff" the gauge doesn't matter, let me ask you why so many advocate extended magazine capacities for HD abd why some also wear a side saddle? Why not just rely on the good old single shot if one is conficent they will shoot with perfect precision under exigent circumstances? It is because the best shooter can be off the mark.

Next question. What poses the greater risk of collateral damage from , assuming the same velocity; 5 pieces of OOO from a .410 or double their equvalent weight in #4 Buck out of a 12 gauge?

Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

it is well and good to train to be dead on accurate and to strive to put every piece of shot on target, but chit happens under extreme pressure. Plan for it. Ig a .410 is best for you, go for it. All I am saying is that it generally is not the best HD shotgun for the average person.

Pfletch83
November 19, 2012, 01:11 AM
Okay.

Using your "Average" shooter comment.

What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?

Pfletch83
November 19, 2012, 04:09 PM
Give this a try when you get the chance...

Take a paper plate and trace an old CD for a target (trace the center out as well because that will be your aiming point)

and make sure that you set it up to where the wind will catch it.

Load up some buckshot that your gun patterns well ('00' or '000') and set yourself at 10 or 15 yards. (say two rounds through a cylinder choke)

Try to get as close to the center with a breeze blowing as you can.

*Think of it as a friendly target exercise, trust me it's one hell of a challenge*

SHR970
November 19, 2012, 05:20 PM
Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

Neither

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm). The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results.

amd6547
November 19, 2012, 07:33 PM
It's really not a question of the 410 being "superior". Actually, it is more a question of the 410 being suitable for SD...and it certainly is.
For a while, I experimented with a Saiga 410. It was a fantastic gun. I felt quite well armed with it loaded with a five round mag of buck.
The only reason I sold it was the combined length of the Kalashnikov action and barrel, and the plastic stock...made for a weapon that was a little too long.
But, when I look at the new 410 loads available today, like the PDX, I wish I still had that Saiga to try them in.

idek
November 20, 2012, 03:01 AM
What happens when the average shooter uses a 12 gauge and completely misses the targeted threat with it?
I don't understand the notion that keeps popping up about missing with a 12 gauge or "a hit with x is better than a miss with y"

What logic indicates that a person is somehow more likely to miss with a 12 gauge than any other gun?

TheKlawMan
November 20, 2012, 03:35 AM
I give up. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Most of you still don't get the point. As for those that tried to answer the 8" off center question, the key that was missed is which is most likely. It would have been a better question if I had asked about a hit 6" off of center, but the same result. (Yes, if the BG is a bad guy the 8" off center at that distance could be a complete miss, Pfletch, but it is more likely to get more hits than the .410 and is therefore more likely to stop the threat although those hits are not very likely to hit center mass vitals.)

Pfletch83
November 20, 2012, 05:59 AM
The thing I was trying to get at is that at home defense ranges the shot column is less likely to open up (and this is for all gauges using buckshot through a smooth bore barrel)

and that the shooter must really be on their game to connect with the target let alone the vital areas of said target.

A point that Klawman either didn't get or doesn't want to admit to.

But the pattern will open up if said pellets are shot through a rifled barrel (but will be useless for longer than HD engagements unless the buckshot is swapped out for slugs)

Pfletch83
November 20, 2012, 06:57 AM
Now the .410 with '00'/'000' buck from a full choke .410 barrel will spread out more than the same load through a cylinder choke barrel (my reason for buying the spare 18.5 inch barrel for the Mossberg 50104).

The results shooting '000' buck through the factory 24-inch full choke barrel caused inconsistent patterns at 5-6 yards,I would use the same aiming point but would get a pattern going high or low.

Now that isn't to say that all buckshot will do the same,for example #4 buck due to it's smaller pellet size will have a tighter pattern that is more consistent with what one would expect to see with birdshot through a full choke (and because most .410's are sent from the factory wearing a full choked tube #4 buck would be the best round to use in them for a larger than normal pest removal situation)

The reason for the inconsistent patterns with larger shot size I think is due to the already restrictive nature of the .410 shotshell.

The full choke forces the shotcup and pellets to squeeze through thus causing pre-mature opening of the shot cup,which leads to inconsistent wide patterns.


You can see this in brass fetcher's youtube vid of the Winchester 5 pellet .410 load (as he did state that the barrel was a full choke at a distance of 10 feet)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ

Here is my vid showing the federal '000' pattern through a full choke at 15-20 feet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYaxYviKTmQ


Here are the results when fired at the same distance as shown in the above vid,only using the 18.5 inch cylinder choke barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVB-c0KXPrM&feature=plcp

TheKlawMan
November 21, 2012, 03:43 AM
Pfletch, I know you are a smart guy and probably know a heck of lot more than me about hd or tactical shotguns, but you are way out of line with your suggestion that I don't get anything or don't want to admit it.

If you simply read the question, I ask which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards?

I wrote out a lengthy explanation of the odds of placing pellet in specific areas of the person, but decided not to post it. You probably could follow it with ease, but I would end up having to explain every little nuance to many mall ninjas (a category in which I do not include you and a few of the others ).
So I simplified greatly.

At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits.

Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass.

Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely.

I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.

TheKlawMan
November 21, 2012, 04:01 AM
Pfletch, Your videos and post only support my postion that the .410 may be the right HD shotgun for some people, but the 12 is superior. The OP praises the use of 000 buck in the .410 and you amply demonstrated the problem with flyers.

Pfletch83
November 21, 2012, 08:48 AM
That's why I have said that the '000' stuff is best for outside the home use and that #4 buck is better for inside the home use.

Which vid are you talking about?

The pepsi box used for a target?

or the second vid where I was using the 50455 in it's foctory config?

Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.

mavracer
November 21, 2012, 10:04 AM
Pfletch83,
So apparently in your opinion 4 or 5 holes is the magic #. because in the case of the Judge/Governer 4 holes is better than 1 but for shotguns 12 holes is not better that 4 or 5.:confused:

seeker_two
November 21, 2012, 10:13 AM
We seem to have drifted a long way from the OP. The .410 shotgun is more than adequate for shooters who want a light shotgun that won't beat them to death with recoil. I see it in the same category as a .357Mag lever-action rifle. Are either longarm as powerful as a 12ga./.308Win longarm?....no. But they do the job adequately.

The military/LEO choices are a red herring. Just because the military tends to defend its "property" with grenades and .50BMG machine guns doesn't make them a good choice for civilian HD. Conversely, LEO's often resopnd to situations first with handguns....then with SWAT teams. Shotguns don't see much use anymore.

For an inexperienced shooter looking for a good HD/recreational shotgun, the .410 has a lot to offer. As they gain more experience and/or look toward more sporting uses (wingshooting, 3-Gun, trap), the 12ga becomes a better choice. Choose the right tool for the job....and for the user.

jlove1974
November 21, 2012, 11:12 AM
My wife, sons, and I all hunt with rifles during the deer firearms season. We are all proficient with rifle recoil.

That being said, my almost-14 year old daughter is home alone sometimes.
She is recoil-averse and doesn't hunt or really care about firearms at all.
She is the reason I keep #4 buckshot in a sidesaddle holster on our NEF Topper .410 single shot behind the bedroom door.

I've been able to instruct her on how to enter the bedroom, lock the door, and load the single-shot and hold on the door. If someone breaks in to the downstairs while she is home alone, she is to follow this procedure.

I feel confident in her ability to defend herself with the .410 in this situation.
9 .240 diameter pellets of Federal #4 buck @ 1100fps to the head/neck/chest area from 8 yards across our bedroom using the bed for a rest tends to mess up a home invaders day. :cool:

SHR970
November 21, 2012, 12:09 PM
So let's look at the original statements made in the OP.

The .410 shotgun is a great defensive tool,the gauge/caliber can be used by anyone that can shoulder a long arm. Mostly true. It is more than adequate for defensive use. Most anyone who can shoulder a long arm could use one.

The ammo situation is being cleared up due to the handguns that have arrived on the market. True. Before the 410 derringer can onto the scene your choices were bird shot and 1/5 oz slugs. Now we have real choices in buckshot and better slugs are available.

The .410 guns are light weight and have a low recoil. Mostly true. The real lightweights like the single shots have a fair amount of kick with a 3" shell. Yes you can game a 12 gauge into the same levels of recoil with 20 gauge payloads and low velocity but that's not the point.

Ammo is also lacking in the weight and bulk area,which allows for more shells to be carried for the same weight as larger gauge guns. True.

The payload is small but is still capable of putting down a two legged threat and is nothing to sneeze at. True The lowly 2 1/2" shell with 3 000Buck pellets is still putting out 210 grains of lead at 1200-1300 fps.; that is 41 Mag. territory energy wise spread over three wound tracks.

For those that are new to shotgunning I would recommend a .410,not only because of the low recoil,but because the limited amount of shot will force the shooter to practice more and in turn become a better shotgunner with the heavy hitters on down the line. False. You can't make someone practice. The higher (almost 3X) cost of shells in general will turn many people away from practicing more. With the 12 and 20 gauge you can get bird shot loads that have the same weight and velocity to match the buckshot loads substantially cheaper than buckshot. For defensive practice it really doesn't matter if you substitute bird for buck; you either hit the target or you do not hit the target. The indoor ranges that do allow shotguns do not let you use buckshot anyways; at least in my neck of the woods.

RMcL
November 21, 2012, 01:48 PM
The world of buckshot ammunition continues to advance. So yes today's 3" .410 with five .35 caliber pellets treads closely on the heals of the 2.75" 12 bore loaded with just three more pellets in the load.

Beyond in house defensive use, all that remains is bringing high antimony buckshot pellets, a shot cup and buffer into the .410 picture to tighten the patterns up sufficiently for close range deer hunting.

Old ideas about shotgun performance will nonetheless die slowly.

Pfletch83
November 21, 2012, 06:32 PM
The tighter pattern is what I was getting at with the cylinder choke barrel and large pellets.

The smoother the launch the better the pattern down range.

The thing that makes the .410 so distinct is that each pellet is getting the max use of such a small powder charge.

@SHR970

5 out of 6 ain't bad

RMcL
November 21, 2012, 09:20 PM
If high antimony or hard cast buckshot were loaded in a full length shot cup with buffer, then the tightest patterns would most likely result from a choke bore that matched the diameter of the pellets plus shot cup petal thickness x 2.

TheKlawMan
November 21, 2012, 09:26 PM
Also you didn't seem to be paying attention to what SHR970 had to say on the matter.

And just what do you think I didn't pay attention? Quote it.

I watched the pepsi box video and the following.

Going back, I agree the 000 is best for outside, but HD is generally inside as you seem to acknowledge.

I read his nonsense. Unless there is a special reason, a shooter is fine and will practice plenty with a gauge heavier than the .410. I have a buddy with sever scliosis and he is a great trap shooter with the .410 shooting 23's, but if he could handle a 12 he would be regularly scoring 25.

Pfletch83
November 21, 2012, 09:27 PM
The federal 4-pellet load and 3-inch #4 buck load do use a shotcup and a flight control wad (if memory serves,also the '000' pellets are copper plated so that does toughen them up more than plain soft lead)

The full choke barrel works very well with #4 buck

but not with '000' or slugs (messes with the shot cup during exit and deforms slugs)

Pfletch83
November 21, 2012, 09:32 PM
Well that is the main reason I've been looking at the 28 gauge.

Should be able to hold more #4 buck than a .410 but keep some of the more desired qualities of lighter weight and recoil.

This is the post I was talking about earlier....

"Neither

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results."

SHR970
November 21, 2012, 10:52 PM
Alright Klawman... it seems even when I agree with you I am writing nonsense. Where do you believe that I am spouting total garbage?

How about your own contradictions?

At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express.

With the pattern of each centered 8" to the left of center, I believe you are likely to get 29 hits with #4 and 12 misses. With the 5 pieces of 000 in the .410, you may only get 3 or 4 hits. This suggests that you haven't patterned either load. If so then this is just conjecture on your part

Notice my question asked about to the right or left of center. If you off to one side, you are likely to place much of the pattern over the heart and may put some pellets into the left ventricle and the apex, which likelihood increases if you have more pellets. The heart doesn't lay that deep and there is little or no need to penetrate more than a few inches. The other side is a different matter. Still, with 8 times as many bits of shot, the #4 is more likely to place more lead nearer to center mass. I don't disagree with this if nominally off center; however a 16" pattern at 10 yards with #4 buck (which is needed to hit the heart if 8" off center which you called out) also means you are going to have some pellets miss that target if you are at all off center translating into the possibility of collateral damage.

Regardless, the focus of the question was which is most likely and not if either was likely to stop a BG. I submit the 12 loaded with #4 is the most likely. Not part of the OP and a red herring, a CoM shot with either are 99% likely to do the job.

I also asked about risks of collateral damage. No one addressed the issue since they know it is much greater from 000 that #4 due to the fact that the 000 given the same velocity much more likely to penetrate walls and even the BG and hit innocents.

12 misses of #4 Buck (an optimistic number since 8" off center is a miss on the average male for a frontal shot which means half of your pattern misses) vis a vis 5 pellets of 000Buck slowed down in the target means that you have 7 more chances of hitting an unintended target by your own numbers and more than likely 15.

Post #35 Now I have to get some sleep as I am taking my 5'3" daughter to the range to shoot my 12 gauge 870 (for which I have prepared some 7/8 ounce loads). Now you are gaming the loads to try to fit your arguement. A 3" #4 41 pellet buck load kicks a heck of a lot more than a 3" 410 load out of any combination of shoulder fired weapons. If you want to game the loads, then I will game the practice. I have a Stoger coach 12 gauge (IC & Mod) and a Rossi single 410 (Mod). I would like to see how many 3" shells you are willing to fire out of both. Would you be willing to let your daughter fire a 3" load from the Stoger? Both have the original hard plastic butt pad. I'll bet that you don't go too many shots with the 12 gauge. Like guns with like loads worst case scenario. Practice was a consideration in the OP

You also asked in post #64 Laslty, given the same loads as above, which is more likely to put an instant stop the threat if your hit is 8" to left or right of center at a distance of 10 yards? My answer was neither due to fringe hit / B zone at best. You'll get some pellets in the lung but that doesn't translate to an INSTANT STOP.

But in post #73 you stated At 10 yards, which is a long shot for HD but that was the question, I expect a similar size pattern for a 12 or .410 short barrel open cyllinder. The .410 000 3" magnum has 5 pieces of shot. The 12 #4 3" has 41. Both are Remmi express. Which suggests that you haven't patterned one or both.

Post #30 One has a physical handicap for decades and having shot the .410 for decades is very good with it. While he regularly shoots trap in the low 90's, if he could shoot a 20 or a 12 I have not doubt he would be in the very high 90's. And shooting a clay pigeon in trap is a heck of a lot harder than hitting a human at household distances.

So please tell us where have I been wrong in posts 17, 37, 51, 67, or 79? These are all of the posts where I have answered.

TheKlawMan
November 22, 2012, 02:46 PM
SHR970,

I am not even taking the time to read your quibling nonsense and will only comment on two things.

The first is you continue to argue that neither is most likely to intantly stop the threat. Your lame retort is neither.

My answer was neither due to fringe hit / B zone at best. You'll get some pellets in the lung but that doesn't translate to an INSTANT STOP.

I know and knew when the question was fabricated that neither was likely to put an immediat end to the threat, BUT THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION. The question was which of the two was more likely than the other.

The other item is quite simple. Have you ever pulled the trigger in a real world in-home encounter with one or multiple bad guys? I don't want any BS about training or video games.

Enjoy your thanksgiving. I get to mow the yards.

TheKlawMan
November 22, 2012, 03:10 PM
Pfletch,

8" off center will be a fringe or B Zone hit at best on the average man using any of the tight patterning loads. You might want to read this Boxotruth. The 20 yard test is quite revealing. If you take a garbage shot you will get garbage results."

Yep, and that is why I specified 8" off center. If the center of the pattern is a fringe hit, the periphery of the same pattern will be nearer to the target's midline (but still off). How much the pattern opens will determine to some extent how the percentile of pellets nearer to center. At 4 yards the load barely opens so the peripherals (not outliers) aren't that much closer to center mass than the center of the pattern.

That is why my question SPECIFIED 10 YARDS. At 10 yards an open cyllinder has begun to open (assuming we are not talking flight control). A fixed open cyllinder barrel is what I assume is being used for HD.

Just answer me this, different loads will have different patterns in different guns, but if that gun is an open cyllinder what size of a pattern would you expect at a range of 10 yards?

SHR970
November 22, 2012, 03:30 PM
The other item is quite simple. Have you ever pulled the trigger in a real world in-home encounter with one or multiple bad guys?

In home: No

In real life: Yes. I was licensed and carried professionally in California from 1992 - 1999. During that time I had to drop the hammer on someone. Been through the Homicide investigation and DA review that went with it.

Drawn more than once during that time frame but only had to go all the way once.

And you?

TheKlawMan
November 22, 2012, 04:08 PM
And you?

Not in combat and at less than 5 yards. I fired once, not hitting either perp, and it was over. Also PD invetigation, DA and charges. which were dismissed after court hearings. I can't or will not say more about the incident.

Sorry that I was in your face.

Rob228
November 22, 2012, 06:08 PM
Here are two pics of a target with 12 Ga Federal LE #1 Buck out of a Wingmaster with an 18" Modified barrel:


1st Shot
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Rupert999/download-1.jpg


Follow on 4 shots, rapid fire.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/Rupert999/5Rounds.jpg

I can hit what I aim at with my 12 Ga and these rounds put quite a bit of lead where I aim. I'll stick with my 12. My wife is quite small in stature and has an 870 Express 20 youth next to her side of the bed loaded with #3 buck. It never even entered my thought process to go with a .410 as the 12 and 20 are both far more versatile and have a tremendous amount of ammunition available for whatever it is we are deciding to shoot at on any given day.

Rob228
November 22, 2012, 10:05 PM
To build off of my previous post, you don't see any "stray pellets" and inside of my house, if there is any over-penetration of an intruder I doubt the pellets will clear the next wall.

If a .410 is what you have, then use it. If a 12 is what you have, use it. I have a 12 and several 20's, a .410 is not in my future.

SHR970
November 23, 2012, 12:41 AM
Sorry that I was in your face. Your question was fair; no apologies needed but accepted as offered. Hopefully no-one else here need go through the experience.

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 08:36 AM
This is what I find rather funny about the whole situtaion,the person that has given me the most guff about my choice in gauge of shotgun and ammo load out....MISSED

"Not in combat and at less than 5 yards. I fired once, not hitting either perp, and it was over. Also PD invetigation, DA and charges. which were dismissed after court hearings. I can't or will not say more about the incident."

Where did those pellets end up or do you want to thump your chest some more mr. expert?

Because unlike you I don't miss when the adrenaline is going,that is when I'm at my best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YSh1-XuUKE

OkieCruffler
November 24, 2012, 10:34 AM
Where is Dave when we need him?

seeker_two
November 24, 2012, 10:34 AM
Amen!

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 11:29 AM
Hey it wouldn't have been like this if Klawman had knocked off the bs.

He asked for it he got it.

I'm not going to molly coddle someone that is giving me the third degree over a simple differnance of opinion.

I'm also not going to project my own faults onto someone else.

SHR970
November 24, 2012, 12:02 PM
Pfletch83: You are stepping over the line here.

Klawman and I had some heated disagreement too, but I also know it takes a bigger man to state what he did. He didn't lie about or sugarcoat his experience. His statements and beliefs are borne from HIS personal experience; my statements are borne from mine.

Unless you know the circumstances or have been in a SHTF situation yourself you may wish to tone it down and drop the neener neener attitude. It seriously lessens your credibility and makes you come off as a mall ninja, tactical Tommy, or armchair commando.

There are plenty of documented cases where LEO's have pumped dozens of rounds out at close to contact distances and missed a whole bunch. It happens when you get the adrenaline dump. Unless you have been on the business end of deadly force you may wish to moderate your comments. Otherwise, feel free to share YOUR experience with us.

Edit to add: Up Close Gunfight. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82-dGvWKI0) It may be handguns but goes to the point.

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 12:12 PM
Okay then here goes...

An ex girlfriend pulled one of my own weapons on my mother,I got between the two,she kept the loaded Glock 17 trained on my chest,I gave her two warnings to stow it.

She didn't listen and I then grabbed the slide pressed it out of battery with my left hand,hit the mag release with my right hand, then sat her down on the couch.

No one died,no one was hurt,no stray shots were fired,end of story.

anything else?

OkieCruffler
November 24, 2012, 12:28 PM
There shouldn't be anything else. This thread outlived it's usefulness many post ago and now is just burning up bandwidth with insults.

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 12:36 PM
What pray tell is useless about surviving an armed encounter?

CMGibson
November 24, 2012, 12:41 PM
Ok Im interested in 410. Can someone show me a compact size that holds at least 5 rounds? Not interested in a long barrel.:)

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 01:49 PM
Well I have been tinkering with an idea...

The project code name is "Terrier" (Because like it's name sake it is little but it can be very mean)

It is the smallest defensive shotgun and is a variant of the Mossberg 510 mini.

It invloves taking the mag tube and barrel from the Mossberg 50455 and using both on the 510 receiver.

It would still have the shorter forearm reach and keep the adjustablility of the 510 stock (which should increase speed if any follow up shots are needed,and adapt to different size frames)

Total capacity would still be 6 (5, 2-1/2 inch shells in the mag tube + 1, 2-1/2 inch or 3-inch shell in the chamber)

Chainsawjames
November 24, 2012, 03:19 PM
So many different variables...

2damnold4this
November 24, 2012, 05:43 PM
The thread started of interesting. Too bad it turned so ugly.

Pfletch83
November 24, 2012, 05:47 PM
I tried to keep things civil.

seeker_two
November 24, 2012, 06:08 PM
OKC: Amen!

Pfletch83
November 30, 2012, 07:55 PM
Moving on...

I'm going to start work on project Terrier soon.

I'm going to start out by picking up a 510 mini and then order a 50455 mag tube,spring,follower and barrel.

Then try to find a good smith that will do the work of removing the factory mag tube and installing it on the 510.

The only two problems that I can guess at this point would stem from the bolt not matching up with the cut out on the barrel and the mag tube not fitting.

But I figure Mossberg would keep the mag tubes for their .410 in spec.

*crosses fingers* lets see how it turns out.

seeker_two
November 30, 2012, 08:45 PM
We'll be waiting for updates....

Pfletch83
December 1, 2012, 12:32 AM
If it works out as well as I hope I'm going to do the same thing with the 20 gauge version of the 510.

340 Weatherby
December 1, 2012, 01:43 AM
You guys keep this thread going. I'm loading my 410 shells as fast as I can for the big shootout. I think it all comes down to you gotta go with what ya got for home defense. My wife is scared to death of a 12 gauge riotgun but she will shoot my 20 gauge double and not think twice about it. And now that I think about it my Winchester Mariner with 3" #4 Buck has given me a headache pretty much every time I've shot, it but Oh My, what results you get.

zippy13
December 3, 2012, 08:54 PM
This is what I find rather funny about the whole situtaion,the person that has given me the most guff about my choice in gauge of shotgun and ammo load out….MISSED

Don't go jumping to erroneous conclusions. He said neither perp was hit, he didn't say he missed. Dropping the hammer on someone is VERY serious business. I was at only one shotgun killing and I don't want a repeat performance.

Generally, I would recommend a .410-bore shotgun for home defense only if your other choices were a rock or a stick. Of course, there will always be someone who, for one reason or another, can't manage anything larger than a .410-bore.

I find it curious that in your OP you recommended a .410-bore, then a few posts later you said: "I would actually like to try a 28 gauge with the same setup." How can you recommend the .410-bore if you haven't even tried a 28-ga gun? You've reached your conclusion without gathering all your data. If you give the 28-ga a try and feel it's far superior to the .410-bore (based upon your criteria), then this whole discussion becomes moot. I've shot many thousands of .410-bore and 28-ga shells, and would select neither for HD, YMMV. FYI, in past postings I've mentioned a common opinion held by experienced shooters: A 28-ga kicks like a .410-bore and hits like a 20-ga.

Pfletch83
December 3, 2012, 09:47 PM
Acutally I just wanted to try the same standard setup in a different gauge,instead of going only with the best known,I went to the opposite end of the scale and applied the same to the smallest gauge that is factory loaded for defensive ammo and sure enough it seems to be up to the task.

The point is even if all you have is a .410 that has been handed down...with the right ammo and skill set it can still save your hide in a pinch.

Question....If someone shoots and doesn't hit what they aim at,wouldn't that be called a miss?

I would say so,and I'm sure others would agree.

Also my reason for wanting to try the same type of setup in 28 gauge is to bring it up to speed with other scatterguns and to show that it has just as much capability as other gauges.

hogdogs
December 3, 2012, 10:10 PM
While I am of the ilk that feels "All things being equal (which they rarely are), the bigger bullet wins...

I will say that my first gun being a .410 bolt gun from Mossberg was absolutely lethal in my hands... Being my first and only gun from the time I was 8 until I was 16 when I got my single shot .22 for trapline use... I was a crackshot with it... Rabbit on the run, pheasant on the wing and many larger game fell to that gun and more than one ol' timer with a 12 gauge respected my shooting skills even if I thought it was just average shooting by an average country kid...

It was also my only HD capable arm in my first years on my own... I pity the poor soul who would think it was a "pea shooter" For HD I kept #4 shot and the poly choke cranked tight to "FULL"... Any distance in a home had about a tennis ball or so size spread... I only had 3 shots but I could usually make do with those 3...

I look forward to seeing your results...

Brent

Pfletch83
December 3, 2012, 10:21 PM
I look forward to getting the projects up and running as soon as funds allow.

First gray tail I ever knocked out of a tree was with a single shot .410,I've been hooked on the little gauge from then on.

Corrections Cop
December 3, 2012, 10:49 PM
How about a 16 gauge. Here is my project that I just finished up. Western Field 16 HD gun.

http://s5.postimage.org/3kopvkikz/DSCF0026.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/3kopvkikz/)

Pfletch83
December 3, 2012, 11:04 PM
Nice

The 16 gauge gets my respect (But then again I like them all)

zippy13
December 3, 2012, 11:19 PM
Question….If someone shoots and doesn't hit what they aim at,wouldn't that be called a miss?
Answer: Again, don't jump to conclusions. You're assuming he aimed at one of the perps. Perhaps, considering the gravity of the situation, a warning shot was fired… who knows? Now, let's not start a "warning shot or not" debate.

Pfletch83
December 3, 2012, 11:25 PM
Because zip that would be for another thread.

hogdogs
December 3, 2012, 11:29 PM
Lets just keep this thread related to the OP and his intents... At this point, I think we all can agree "Bigger is usually better" and "anything beats nothing at all"...

Brent

Pfletch83
December 3, 2012, 11:33 PM
I agree that bigger is better....which is why you won't see me recommend birdshot for SD/HD....I like the larger buckshot pellets for that task.

Corrections Cop
December 3, 2012, 11:49 PM
Thanks Pfletch, its my first try at building a gun, now its got a single point sling mount on it also.

seeker_two
December 4, 2012, 05:45 AM
At this point, I think we all can agree "Bigger is usually better" and "anything beats nothing at all"...


Really?.....does that mean we should all be carrying .50AE Desert Eagles & .500 S&W's for SD?.....or that a water gun will get us home every night?.....

I prefer "the right tool for the job".....and, sometimes, the .410 is the right tool.....

....besides, generality statements are never good....

hogdogs
December 4, 2012, 07:37 AM
Seeker, the point I tried to make is generally understood by those who use the shotgun section...

I was also trying to steer the thread back on track which I am doing again now.

And for HD, I cannot think of a time when I would grab a .410 over a 12 if able bodied enough to handle the larger...

But I do consider the .410 adequate in the hands of a person who knows the gun well and has the round capacity to overcome any less than stellar results with the first shots...

Brent

Pfletch83
December 4, 2012, 08:13 AM
And I can get the job done with any gauge I have at hand,not because I'm some super soldier *Halo music plays in the background...joking* but because I know what to expect from a chosen shotgun and ammo load out through pattern testing,and practice.

I understand what I can do and what the weapon is capable of.