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Dearhunter61
October 4, 2012, 05:40 PM
Hey guys,

What do you consider to be good accuracy? It's a Colt with handle that of course has a peep sight. Shooting at 50 yards while only resting the forearm of the rifle. The ammo is inexpensive factory. 5 shot group?

Thanks,

kraigwy
October 4, 2012, 05:50 PM
It should easy to get 2 MOA out of that set up.

Lots of good scores fired in HP with open (peep rear/post front) at 200, 300, 600 & 1000 yards.

arizona98tj
October 4, 2012, 09:45 PM
Define....."The ammo is inexpensive factory."

I've seen some inexpensive factory ammo shoot no better than 4 MOA out of a rifle capable of putting rounds on target in a 1 MOA group.

checkmyswag
October 4, 2012, 11:03 PM
At 50 yards? Should be able to get one ragged hole.

Ozzieman
October 6, 2012, 10:44 AM
A lot depends on the gun and the sight. I have never been much of a fan of the standard AR sights but I am a big fan of peep sights.
With my stock AR I have a hard time holding 4 inches at 100 but with the AR in the photo it’s easy to hold under 2. But the gun also fits me much better.
I have 4 other guns with peeps, one of those on a Winchester 75 I paid more for the sighs than the last AR I put together. With it I can hold a nickel at 100.
Note: all of this is with 223 Hand loads. “Inexpensive 223” easily double the grouping.
Understand this is across sand bags, I’m too old for anything other than prone without the support of a gun rest or bags.

Metal god
October 6, 2012, 09:32 PM
+1 on the 2MOA (2" group)) @ 50 yards


IMO I'm not that good or shoud I say comfortable shooting more then 50 yards with iron sights. I can and I do shoot 100 yards all the time with My AR that just has iron sights .

The other day at the range I shot a ten inch group @ 100 yards using brown bear 55gr . I was on a table but no rest . Just holding the rifle with my elbows on the table for support . Stock rifle stock trigger and not really locking in on the target . Shooting about 1 shot every 2 seconds or so . With that ammo . that gun , that rate of fire and that distance . I was happy when I went out to look at my target and all 20 rounds hit with in a 10 inch area .

With the same rifle using better ammo and a rest I can shoot a 4 inch three shot group @ 100 yards with iron sights .

Again wth the same gun better ammo and a scope . I can shoot a three shot group just over 1 MOA @ 100yards .

With these numbers being what I can do . I would be very unhappy if i did not shoot a 2 inch group @ 50 yards while really trying ( using a rest and locking in on the target )

darkgael
October 6, 2012, 10:10 PM
There is a similar thread over at THR.
The other day I shot this ten shot group at 100 yards from prone position using NM aperture sights. Elite shooters do a lot better.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/4F7C2FB4-0182-4378-815C-A24F3F8B99BE-673-000000F98FACE036.jpg
My handloads.

Y'know, at my age (65), the hardest part of shooting the prone position is getting back up.
Pete

raimius
October 7, 2012, 06:14 PM
+1 on the 2MOA (2" group)) @ 50 yards
At 50 yards, 2MOA would be a 1 inch group.

Metal god
October 7, 2012, 06:57 PM
I beleave MOA works the other way around .:) 1 MOA is a 1/2 " @ 50 - 1" @100- 2" @200- 3" @300 etc . So a 2" group @ 50 yards is a 4" group @ 100 yards . One other thing to keep in mind is just because I can shoot a 1" group @ 100 does not mean I can shoot a 10" group @ 1000 The farther you shoot the harder it is to keep the group tight .

jimbob86
October 7, 2012, 07:08 PM
You both are right.

2MOA is 1" at 50.

1MOA is .5" at 50, 1" at 100, etc.

In a weightless vacuum, 1" at 100 makes roughly 10" at 1000 possible, but we shoot here on Earth where the longer the bullet is subject to environmntal factors like gravity, air resistance, wind..... the greater chance for deviation.

Metal god
October 7, 2012, 09:07 PM
Oops :D yep I was wrong both times :( What I meant to say was I would not be happy with more then a 2" group at 50 yards with iron sights not 2 MOA @ 50

darkgael
October 7, 2012, 10:03 PM
Another thing to consider is that the growth of group size is not linear.
A 100 yard MOA group is not twice as large as a 50 yard group, it is four times large. And vice versa of course.

jimbob86
October 7, 2012, 11:30 PM
A 100 yard MOA group is not twice as large as a 50 yard group, it is four times large. And vice versa of course.


I'm confused, or somebody is anyhoo....

Esplain yerself, Lucy......

darkgael
October 8, 2012, 05:14 AM
Explain....Ok.
You are thinking of lines that are one or two minutes of angle long. You are correct in that a 100 yard MOA line is twice a 50 yard line. But groups, especially shot with more and more rounds, are not lines, not one dimensional. They have length and width/diameter.
A minute of angle at 50 yards is roughly one half inch. So.....take a pencil and draw a square that is one half inch on a side. A one minute of angle square. A one MOA group shot at 50 yards must fit inside that square.
Now......one MOA at 100 yards is roughly one inch. Draw a square with one inch sides. Compare the two squares. The 100 yard square is four times the size of the 50 yard square.

Since groups are often roughly circular when they are shot, another way to look at it is to think of a small circle that is, let's say, two MOA in diameter, and take the area of one for 50 yards and one for 100 yards. Two MOA at 50 yards is one inch. At 100 yards it is two inches.
The formula for the area of a circle is A = 3.14 x r^2. So....the area of the little circle at 50 yards is A = 3.14 (0.5)^2 or 3.14 X .25 = 0.785 sq.in
Do the same for a two MOA circle at 100 yards. It'd be two inches wide. The radius is one inch. One squared is one. So the area of that two inch diameter circle is A = 3.14 X 1 = 3.14 sq.in.
Compare the two areas. The 100 yard circle has four times the area of the 50 yard circle.
Pete

Metal god
October 8, 2012, 06:31 AM
I understand this one ;)

You are thinking of lines that are one or two minutes of angle long. You are correct in that a 100 yard MOA line is twice a 50 yard line. But groups, especially shot with more and more rounds, are not lines, not one dimensional. They have length and width/diameter.
A minute of angle at 50 yards is roughly one half inch. So.....take a pencil and draw a square that is one half inch on a side. A one minute of angle square. A one MOA group shot at 50 yards must fit inside that square.
Now......one MOA at 100 yards is roughly one inch. Draw a square with one inch sides. Compare the two squares. The 100 yard square is four times the size of the 50 yard square.
:)

and thank you for helping me understand I shoot 4 times whorse then I thought I did . :eek:

This one just makes my brain hurt :(

Since groups are often roughly circular when they are shot, another way to look at it is to think of a small circle that is, let's say, two MOA in diameter, and take the area of one for 50 yards and one for 100 yards. Two MOA at 50 yards is one inch. At 100 yards it is two inches.
The formula for the area of a circle is A = 3.14 x r^2. So....the area of the little circle at 50 yards is A = 3.14 (0.5)^2 or 3.14 X .25 = 0.785 sq.in
Do the same for a two MOA circle at 100 yards. It'd be two inches wide. The radius is one inch. One squared is one. So the area of that two inch diameter circle is A = 3.14 X 1 = 3.14 sq.in.
Compare the two areas. The 100 yard circle has four times the area of the 50 yard circle.

AKsRul.e
October 8, 2012, 08:11 AM
1972 - I was in AIT (advanced Infantry training )

I was 20.

Part of our live fire exam included a silhouette at
something like 400 yds.

Using an issue training M16 and FMJ ammo I was able to
hit it easily.

Young eyes and steel nerves :D

I couldn't do that today with a match rifle and optics :(
.

darkgael
October 8, 2012, 11:30 AM
understand I shoot 4 times whorse then I thought I did
Nah... you don't. Despite the fact that the group is two dimensional, we still tend to measure them c to c in a straight line between the two shots furthest apart. So our measurement of a group at 100 yards will be only double what it may have been at 50, even though the group as a whole covers more than double the area. The area thing is just a curiosity. Numbers.
Pete

Metal god
October 8, 2012, 11:41 AM
I know . That was me being funny . I don't know about you guys but I crack me up .:D

Marquezj16
October 8, 2012, 09:43 PM
This is what I shot with my Sport. I'm happy with 2 MOA. :)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=78342&d=1328338350

MOshooter65202
October 9, 2012, 11:26 AM
Yes the AR NM iron sights are capable of shooting tight groups

allaroundhunter
October 9, 2012, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Checkmyswag

At 50 yards? Should be able to get one ragged hole.

You don't shoot much with stock AR sights, do you?

kraigwy
October 9, 2012, 11:57 AM
Setting rapid fire w/irons.

Take into account those scoring rings are 1/2 inches a part so this is just a tad over 1 inch.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/websize/GEDC2291.JPG

9mm1033
October 9, 2012, 12:28 PM
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071


Hey, that's not fair. :D

darkgael
October 9, 2012, 06:05 PM
Setting rapid fire w/irons

Sweet shooting.

Strafer Gott
October 10, 2012, 08:01 PM
Let the machine speak! Thanks Kraig. You're the man.

10mmAuto
October 12, 2012, 04:19 AM
With a sandbag and a good shooter you can approach your weapon's mechanical accuracy with the standard sights of an M16, at least at 100 yards and with a target that provides decent contrast against the all black post. Beyond that range, many people's eyes may have problems focusing on the front sight post and maintaining a consistent hold on the target in order to shoot that tight. Probably. But the iron sights are definitely adequate for shooting man sized targets out to 600m.