PDA

View Full Version : Smith & Wesson AR 15 Sport


rebs
September 21, 2012, 12:53 PM
These were shot with my completely stock S&W Sport, the only addition was a Nikon 3-9 X 40 scope. Hand loads in LC 5.56 brass, 25.0 grns of H335 powder, CCI #400 primer and Hornady 55 gr soft point bullets. The target is a one inch circle at 100 yards. Five rounds at each target.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8461/8009660460_8e7e297768_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8176/8009654243_2dc833fd75_z.jpg

SFW
September 21, 2012, 01:43 PM
Very nice. I think your rifle likes those loads. :)

BillyJack3
September 21, 2012, 03:25 PM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice groups!

2damnold4this
September 21, 2012, 03:50 PM
That is excellent accuracy.

plouffedaddy
September 21, 2012, 04:45 PM
The 5R S&W barrels are very accurate in my experience as well.

Strafer Gott
September 21, 2012, 04:49 PM
Nice shooting, nice rifle, and my own personal favorite load. I've never complained about accuracy with H335. A lot of people give good reports with the S&W sport model.

PS: Looks like a visit to dogtown might be in order!

rebs
September 21, 2012, 06:13 PM
These are the bullets I used to shoot those groups
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/579266/hornady-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-55-grain-spire-point-with-cannelure-box-of-500-bulk-packaged?cm_vc=wishList

I have also had great groups with the MidwayUSA dogtown 55 gr bullets soft points and also these

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/616602/hornady-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-55-grain-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail-box-of-500-bulk-packaged?cm_vc=wishList

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/817539/midwayusa-dogtown-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-55-grain-soft-point-box-of-100?cm_vc=wishList

Marquezj16
September 21, 2012, 07:49 PM
Nice shooting. I have not used a scope on my Sport but it sure is plenty accurate with irons. Might be time for me to find out.

I load about the same when using H335. I also use BLC2 with Hornady bullets.

rebs
September 21, 2012, 07:52 PM
I am going to try 25.5 and 26.0 and see what the difference is, but I doubt it could be any more accurate. Maybe a little higher velocity will help it shoot a flatter trajectory with less elevation change between 100 and 300 yards..

LSnSC
September 21, 2012, 10:38 PM
Impressive. I believe the M&P sport is the best AR in its price range. Every one Ive seen functions well and is a shooter. I think the barrels are made by TC.

chris in va
September 22, 2012, 12:55 AM
It's entertaining to read posts from a year ago how 'cheap' the Sport was perceived to be. People aren't laughing anymore.

10mmAuto
September 22, 2012, 01:55 AM
"Gun sitting" a friend's while he's at BOLC. It's a carbine gas system and receiver extension which I'm not a fan of and the BCG isn't FA which I also don't like.

That being said, function has been 100% and manufacturing quality is good.

rebs
September 22, 2012, 07:21 AM
I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance. It is fun when I go to the range and guys compliment me on this guns ability to shoot so accurately.
What I find amazing is the variety of bullets it will shoot so accurately. The three bullets I left a link for previously all shoot equally well.

10mmAuto
September 22, 2012, 02:34 PM
I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.
I like it too, but uhhhhh, what?

Let me put it to you this way, it's hard to tell the difference between a quality front wheel drive minivan and a Humvee if all you do is twenty down the high way.

rebs
September 22, 2012, 04:18 PM
I like it too, but uhhhhh, what?

Let me put it to you this way, it's hard to tell the difference between a quality front wheel drive minivan and a Humvee if all you do is twenty down the high way.

I am afraid I don't quite follow what you are saying.

allaroundhunter
September 22, 2012, 04:21 PM
I am afraid I don't quite follow what you are saying.

He is saying that you have not pushed the Sport to its breaking point to see how it fares against a higher end gun. Yes, for its price the sport gives you a lot of bang for your buck, but no, it cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits.

Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.

Sent from my HTC One X

arizona98tj
September 22, 2012, 05:09 PM
Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.

Do you have a review, write-up, article, etc. where they were pushed hard? Would enjoy reading it and seeing what failed and came up short compared to the others that were also evaluated.

rebs
September 22, 2012, 08:41 PM
Do you have a review, write-up, article, etc. where they were pushed hard? Would enjoy reading it and seeing what failed and came up short compared to the others that were also evaluated.

I would really like to read it, where can I find it ?

plouffedaddy
September 22, 2012, 09:01 PM
There's a really good write up by a guy (can't remember his name) who runs a training school over on glocktalk about this. He bought a bunch of Colt 6920s and S&W Sports at the same time for use in his class. He's maintaining them the same (clean every 1k, lube with Mobil 1) and posting results. It's very interesting. If I can find the link I'll post it...

Marquezj16
September 22, 2012, 09:38 PM
I'd like to see that comparison as well.

Never mind, found it myself.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/582759_SandW_Sport_Colt_6920_Comparison_Study.html

Still reading it...

plouffedaddy
September 22, 2012, 10:28 PM
Yup, that's the same guy. Guess he posted it on ARFCOM too...

Marquezj16
September 22, 2012, 11:02 PM
Looks like it was just the initial testing of accuracy that has been gathered so far.

Here's another thread. Reading the ARFCOM one made my head hurt.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p15-rifle/264522-sport-colt-6920-accuracy-test-data.html

rebs
September 23, 2012, 07:44 AM
Why is it that the owners of Colt's and so called high end AR 15's seem to have a need to knock whatever others own ? Mine is better than yours, mines bigger than yours, mine cost more than yours so yours is cheap ? Why do they have to defend their purchase ? Who are they trying to convince that because they bought brand X theirs is better ? Who gives a crap if a gun lasts for 100,000 rounds, is the average Joe going to shoot that many rounds ? I know I won't.
I have read good and bad about every brand of AR that there is. I also own a Windham Weaponry AR 15, is it any better than my Sport ? It has a different feel to it, the trigger is different, it looks different, but is it any better, I doubt it. I also have in my possession a Colt match target and a DPMS that I am keeping for a friend that is in Afghanistan with his permission to shoot them anytime I want. Are they any better than my Sport ? I can't say they are, I can say neither of them shoot as accurate as my Sport. Is my Sport better than any of them, I would say no. With the exception that my Sport is more accurate then they are.
My point is that whatever brand you bought, you bought it for a reason that you believe, but that alone does not make your choice of gun the best gun out there. Everyone wants to feel that whatever they spent their hard earned money on is the best. Is my Sport the best, who knows, but I bought it because it is what I wanted and I am happy with it.

Marquezj16
September 23, 2012, 09:29 AM
Hey rebs - have you tried shooting it out further than 100 yards? I'm asking because I shoot mine out to 300 to a steel target but I don't measure groups plus using iron sights only. Be cool to see how the groups are at that range.

223 shooter
September 23, 2012, 09:59 AM
Why is it that the owners of Colt's and so called high end AR 15's seem to have a need to knock whatever others own ?

Let them , those that do the bashing will probably never shoot targets anywhere close to what you have posted above.

plouffedaddy
September 23, 2012, 12:46 PM
Let them , those that do the bashing will probably never shoot targets anywhere close to what you have posted above.

Could not agree more!

So many people say 'x' or 'y' gun isn't accurate enough, then when I see them at the range they can't keep a 8'' group at 100m with an AR. Then they go shoot a mini or AK and pronounce the gun 'inaccurate.' Riiiigggghhhtttt.

arizona98tj
September 23, 2012, 02:03 PM
Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.

allaroundhunter,
Please provide a link to where the S&W Sports are compared against top tier ARs, all being "run hard"....and the data indicates there is some kind of a notable difference.

You indicated this has happened.....a link to just the summary would be appreciated.

Thanks

allaroundhunter
September 23, 2012, 02:14 PM
allaroundhunter,
Please provide a link to where the S&W Sports are compared against top tier ARs, all being "run hard"....and the data indicates there is some kind of a notable difference.

You indicated this has happened.....a link to just the summary would be appreciated.

Thanks

I never indicated that it happened, I was explaining the metaphor that Rebs did not understand. Also, I never once bashed the S&W, I do not own a Colt, nor do I have plans of buying one anytime soon. I didn't even say that the manufacturing processes made higher end ARs "better", I stated that it makes a difference.

The Sport is a fine AR, there is nothing wrong with it.... What I constantly wonder, is why people feel like they have to defend their purchase of a more budget minded AR to everyone else? Jeez....

If I have time to look up the sport being run against a high end AR, I will. But for the time being I am plenty busy dealing with medical issues and exams.

Sent from my HTC One X

arizona98tj
September 23, 2012, 02:32 PM
I guess I was just confused when you stated the following:

He is saying that you have not pushed the Sport to its breaking point to see how it fares against a higher end gun. Yes, for its price the sport gives you a lot of bang for your buck, but no, it cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits.

When you wrote that the Sport cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits, I simply assumed you had some actual facts on which this could be substantiated.

I don't own a Sport so I'm not defending one. But if I were to buy yet another AR, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get a Sport. I've found nothing in print that has convinced me otherwise....and that was why I asked you for a reference....had you had one, it would have been the first one I had a chance to read.

Thank you for your time.

allaroundhunter
September 23, 2012, 03:06 PM
When you wrote that the Sport cannot compare to a higher end gun when you start pushing them to their limits, I simply assumed you had some actual facts on which this could be substantiated.

I don't own a Sport so I'm not defending one. But if I were to buy yet another AR, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to get a Sport. I've found nothing in print that has convinced me otherwise....and that was why I asked you for a reference....had you had one, it would have been the first one I had a chance to read.

Understood, that was a poor choice of wording and it does make it seem that either I have experience with both of these rifles where I don't or that I have seen information where someone else has, which I have not.

I did however do a brief search of the features of the sport. A major component that is requested for an AR that is going to be run in adverse conditions is a chrome-lined barrel to aid in reliability. The sport does not have this, whereas many "high end" guns do. However, the Sport's lack of a chrome lined barrel most likely also aides in its accuracy. Many things are a give and take, and this is one of them.

I was also not implying that you were dead-set on defending the sport, I understand your position. I am not dead-set on proving that it is a bad or "low end" rifle, because it most definitely is no where close to being either of those, regardless of its price.


I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.

While the Sport is a fine AR, a statement like this is just inciting the type of thread that this has turned into. It very well could have stayed positive and everyone would have continued to compliment the Sport and the accuracy that the OP has achieved with his; but in essence, he took the first swing at "high end" guns.

arizona98tj
September 23, 2012, 03:26 PM
IMO, the lack of a chrome lined barrel is certainly not a negative as far as the Sport is concerned.

Smith & Wesson uses the Melonite process in the Sport's barrel. It is not a process that adds or plates material onto the barrel surface but rather interacts with the barrel itself and makes for one heck of a nice surface, IMO. I've spent a few hours reading up on the process and haven't found anything negative about it from a consumer aspect. It is said to be as resistive to harsh environments, primers, etc. as is the chrome surface. As you indicated, the 5R barrel is more accurate and per the information I've read, the Melonite process makes it just as durable.

As I said before, I've spent time researching the Sport and aside from someone's personal opinion which I dismiss as just that, I've yet to find anything keeping it from being at the top of my list for a future purchase.

rebs
September 23, 2012, 03:34 PM
Shooting accurately on the range is great, and something most ARs do well (but yours shoots very well for a carbine). But once you start pushing them to run hard in adverse conditions, and shoot them a lot at once, the added features and better manufacturing of higher end guns will prove that it does make a difference.

This is where the thread went south

allaroundhunter
September 23, 2012, 04:30 PM
The thread went south because you didn't understand a metaphor and I had to explain it to you?

I'm sorry, but that is not where it went south. It went south when you incited a competition between your gun and others by saying this:

I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.

plouffedaddy
September 23, 2012, 04:47 PM
I think melonited barrels will become the standard within the next decade. I agree that you don't lose anything vs chrome lining unless you're shooting corrosive ammo; plus it doesn't chip, cover unevenly, nor (possibly) diminish accuracy.

That said, all but one of my ARs is chrome lined :D

arizona98tj
September 23, 2012, 05:26 PM
The information I read indicated corrosive primers were no more of a problem for a Melonite treated barrel than for a chrome-lined barrel.

Obviously, time will tell. Were I using a Sport, it would make no difference as I don't shoot corrosive ammo anyway.

rebs
September 23, 2012, 06:58 PM
I believe the Sport is truly a fine, accurate AR 15, there might be some equal, but I doubt any are better as far as reliability and performance.

If you read this and comprehend what is being said, I am not saying the Sport is better than any other AR simply stating it is as good as any other AR. I stand by that.

Are you upset because you bought one of the higher price ones and are maybe not completely happy with it ?

allaroundhunter
September 23, 2012, 07:12 PM
Here is what I said back in post #28 to answer the question that you asked.....

Also, I never once bashed the S&W, I do not own a Colt, nor do I have plans of buying one anytime soon. I didn't even say that the manufacturing processes made higher end ARs "better", I stated that it makes a difference.


Are you upset because you bought one of the higher price ones and are maybe not completely happy with it ?

No, not at all actually. I have not bought a "high end" AR. My "expensive" AR, is a Doublestar lower, with a Stag 3G upper that I am currently waiting on.

I am not upset about any of this, I was just trying to explain to you the analogy that you didn't understand and this has just snowballed.... :rolleyes:

Again, we have been past all of this if you want to continue with your thread....but you still seem to be dead set on proving something about your Sport...

cmoulton
September 23, 2012, 07:25 PM
I own a colt and a bushmaster... A colt is also my issue weapon. I think it's hilarious how so many people talk about how their top tier AR would be way better in an actual combat situation. Yes... high volumes of fire, sand, dust, dirt, rain, getting dropped and whatever else happens play a role in the AR's ability to perform and some just do better in those situations. It is just that USUALLY people who talk smack about rifles and have all the "gear" could not run a mile without having a heart attack. No gun is perfect but before you run your mouth about a weapons ability make sure you can back it up. The number one mod anyone can make to their weapon system is to get in shape. What good is a fat body with a top end AR when a SHTF scenario comes up? No I am not a prepper nor do I believe a SHTF scenario will be seen in my lifetime but the people who praise their rifles ability usually resort to saying it would outlast the lower end rifle in a surivial, shtf, combat...whatever situation they fantasize about.
RANT COMPLETE haha

rebs
September 24, 2012, 07:02 AM
No, not at all actually. I have not bought a "high end" AR. My "expensive" AR, is a Doublestar lower, with a Stag 3G upper that I am currently waiting on.

I am not upset about any of this, I was just trying to explain to you the analogy that you didn't understand and this has just snowballed....

Again, we have been past all of this if you want to continue with your thread....but you still seem to be dead set on proving something about your Sport...

I bought the Sport for a range and plinking gun, not for a SHTF gun. I have nothing to prove about it and was only saying it's accuracy is excellent. For me its as good as any of them, it may or may not be the gun for others.
Your right this has snowballed into a mess, I am sorry I started the thread. I should have kept it to myself. If I offended you or anyone else I apologize.
I only started the thread to show the groups the Sport is capable of with hand loads. I had no intention of saying the Sport is the best AR out there.

Marquezj16
September 24, 2012, 04:46 PM
Rebs - you could say that the Sport is the best AR15 for you, based on your accuracy with your handloads! :D

Seriously though, you have a very accurate carbine there. Most people would be proud to shoot that with their bolt guns.

10mmAuto
September 24, 2012, 06:10 PM
No I am not a prepper nor do I believe a SHTF scenario will be seen in my lifetime but the people who praise their rifles ability usually resort to saying it would outlast the lower end rifle in a surivial, shtf, combat...whatever situation they fantasize about.

Interesting rant, nobody here thinks that operator skill and fitness isn't the most important performance determinant of the weapon though. I feel like everybody agrees on that and nobody brought it up until you did. Either way, dismissing differences in design or manufacturing quality as trivial isn't spot on.

Here's an example. In the mountain west, serious hunters may expose their weapons to some fairly crappy conditions for a few days at a time before going back to their vehicle and heading home. In other words, not a fantasy.

When you throw in the addition of the suppressor I use on my hunting weapon (even more carbon fouling), I'm not going to use a weapon that doesn't have a hard chromed chamber, no forward assist and the old school carbine gas/receiver extension (M&P sport). Malfunctions with either that or my BCM/Vltor weapon would both be low, but I'd be willing to bet with a suppressor that the MRBS would be at least 5-6 times higher on the Sport. Even without a suppressor, MRBS would be higher once you remove cleaning from the equation for a few magazines. Do a little research into AR-15 design considerations and you'll know it without even having to test it.

I'll agree 99% of civilian AR owners will never need anything more than a M&P Sport, but there is real utility to be gained in the design and manufacturing quality of higher end weapons for some users.


As a side note, nobody talked smack on anyone's gear as far as I know. OP said it was the equal of any AR, and I disagreed without making a derisive comment. Everyone is easily offended these days, as soon as you say something is superior to something else, that's a derisive comment to the item that isn't superior. Last I checked, a person can acknowledge two items are quality and still acknowledge the superiority of one of them. Not surprising considering how low the standard of discourse on this forum is.

chris in va
September 24, 2012, 07:05 PM
That's fine 10mm, but we're comparing a $630 AR to a $1200 one. Of course you'd expect the more expensive one to have added features. If the Sport cost $1200, then we'd have a more even comparison and valid argument.

The bottom line is, for the price point the Sport excells in it's intended purpose, an entry level AR.

Strafer Gott
September 24, 2012, 07:35 PM
The last time I let body get in the way of my gun admiring, was my "BO and the STRIKER" poster.

10mmAuto
September 25, 2012, 05:51 PM
That's fine 10mm, but we're comparing a $630 AR to a $1200 one. Of course you'd expect the more expensive one to have added features. If the Sport cost $1200, then we'd have a more even comparison and valid argument.

The bottom line is, for the price point the Sport excells in it's intended purpose, an entry level AR.

Cool story bro - too bad "best or equal to any AR at the price point" isn't what the OP said that started this train of discussion.