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View Full Version : C&R 03 FFL experts needed...Gunbroker seller refusing to accept


jpw1488
August 17, 2012, 06:10 PM
I won this auction on a 1946 Marlin 36 .30-30, a C&R rifle. The listing states that they will only send to an FFL and makes no mention of not accepting an 03 FFL. Isn't an auction a binding contract? The dealer is located in Las Vegas, NV. I have been going round and round on the phone with this guy and he has yet to tell me why they can't ship it to me other than "company policy." He also had a weak excuse regarding a recent BATF inspection. He finally asked for my information and said he'd call me back after I told them that negative feedback was inevitable. What gives? Any help would be appreciated!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=300888750

Thanks,
JW

mapsjanhere
August 17, 2012, 06:39 PM
Well, they write FFL Dealer only, so they might want to exclude C&R to avoid having to actually check if the gun is C&R eligible. Either way, you got the short end of the stick, with their high feedback rating they might just blow you off and take a negative. If you think you got a decent deal and really want the gun, toss in the extra $20 and have it send to your local FFL.

stingray2100
August 17, 2012, 06:40 PM
Do you not have an FFL that is local?

That would be the easy thing to do, right?

usually you pay the FFL $20-$40 and you are done.

Creeper
August 17, 2012, 06:42 PM
Hello jpw1488 and welcome to TFL.

Sorry to say... Gunbroker doesn't work that way.
The listing states that they will only send to an FFL and makes no mention of not accepting an 03 FFL.
The "sin of omission" doesn't work. They didn't list it as a C&R, nor did they state they'd ship to a C&R. You should have contacted them regarding your status and intentions prior to bidding to confirm they would deviate from their stated process.

They are not obligated to ship to you as you are not the standard of a "licensed FFL Dealer". Sure, they could have been more specific, but sure, you could have asked. I can tell you from experience, it won't fall your way.
If you give them a negative feedback, they'll do the same for you... and in the end, you'll be viewed as someone who didn't do their homework.

Cheers,
C

Cheapshooter
August 17, 2012, 06:56 PM
Their game, their rules, you lose. BATF has nothing to do with their business policy.

jpw1488
August 17, 2012, 07:19 PM
Thanks for the responses, guys. He called back earlier and they are going to cover the FFL fee. Looks like they did their part. I will make sure to specify my situation next time, just didn't think it would be problem. I got my C&R to make these transactions easier...oh well.

JW

zxcvbob
August 17, 2012, 07:20 PM
You either should have asked before you bid, or not asked at all and just sent your signed 03FFL copy in with your payment -- that is, if you're SURE the gun was made before August 1962.

Creeper
August 17, 2012, 07:26 PM
I got my C&R to make these transactions easier...oh well.

I understand where you're coming from, and... it will make it easier, as long as, in the future, you do your part.
When I worked as the internet sales manager of a large GS, I made sure to list a C&R gun as such, and included in the wording "C&Rs OK" in the gun description title to make it easier to find in a search.

So few places deal with C&Rs that they may not even know what a C&R gun is when they have it in their greasy little hands... let alone how to identify one.

Anyway, don't let it get you down. We learn best from our mistakes rather than our successes.

Cheers,
C

Winchester_73
August 17, 2012, 07:42 PM
In my experience with this situation, ALWAYS ask the seller if they accept a "C&R" (don't call it a 03 FFL because many 01 FFLs (dealer) don't actually know what that is) unless they say "C&R" when they say must go to FFL, they always mean 01 FFL, but sometimes thats the only FFL they are referring to.

jpw1488
August 17, 2012, 07:43 PM
I didn't mention it, and just emailed my 03 FFL after the auction. They called me and said it was a problem. I'm certain the rifle was made in 1946 or 1947, and original.

JW

emcon5
August 17, 2012, 08:05 PM
I'm certain the rifle was made in 1946 or 1947, and original.

Define "certain".

"I read it on the internet" doesn't count.

And I certainly feel for you, half the things I see on Gunbroker I am interested in, are listed as "No sales to California", even though they are perfectly legal, and there is no additional work required for a seller to ship to an 03 FFL.

jpw1488
August 17, 2012, 08:46 PM
Define certain? I am familiar enough with post-war 3rd generation (pre-336) Marlin 36's made in the mid to late forties with a blued, not case colored receiver to be able to recognize one in a gunbroker listing...

JW

madcratebuilder
August 18, 2012, 07:18 AM
Thanks for the responses, guys. He called back earlier and they are going to cover the FFL fee. Looks like they did their part. I will make sure to specify my situation next time, just didn't think it would be problem. I got my C&R to make these transactions easier...oh well.

You owe these guys a strong positive feed back. They stepped up and paid for your assuming they would ship to a C&R.

Not all 01 FFL's are gun people, it's just a business to them. They may not ship eligible C&R and demand all go to a 01 FFL.

Hope the new rifle turns out nice.

tobnpr
August 18, 2012, 12:46 PM
FWIW, an 03 FFL, is still a "Federal Firearms License", just one, of many types.

If an ad says they will only ship to a "FFL holder", and the weapon is C&R eligible, it would seem to be a non-issue, to me- unless they have excluded 03 licenses.

zxcvbob
August 18, 2012, 01:10 PM
If an ad says they will only ship to a "FFL holder", and the weapon is C&R eligible, it would seem to be a non-issue, to me- unless they have excluded 03 licenses.

The original ad said "FFL Dealer" -- an unfortunate choice of words.

Slamfire
August 18, 2012, 03:15 PM
I looked at the ATF 5300.11. While this rifle is 50 years old I did not see it on the list of C&R's. So, doesn't it have to be listed as a C&R to be a C&R?

The ad clearly says licensed FFL Dealer only"Shipping to a licensed FFL Dealer Only" . You may really, really want this rifle, but they are in the right.

Stop fussing, find a local FFL dealer and get the rifle.

chiefr
August 18, 2012, 04:01 PM
Concur entirely with SLAMFIRE.
The 336 is still a current/modern firearm. I do not blame the dealer at all.
Using the 50 year old logic, AK 47s were first produced over 50 years ago. I would not expect to see those made before 1962 to be C&R elligible.
I would go by the BATFE CFR list if I was the dealer.

zxcvbob
August 18, 2012, 06:36 PM
I looked at the ATF 5300.11. While this rifle is 50 years old I did not see it on the list of C&R's. So, doesn't it have to be listed as a C&R to be a C&R?


If a gun is 50+ years old, and in its original configuration it is a "relic". It doesn't have to be on the list.

tobnpr
August 18, 2012, 07:11 PM
^^^
This.

Onward Allusion
August 18, 2012, 09:51 PM
jpw1488
Thanks for the responses, guys. He called back earlier and they are going to cover the FFL fee. Looks like they did their part. I will make sure to specify my situation next time, just didn't think it would be problem. I got my C&R to make these transactions easier...oh well.

Well, I think that the seller just got lots of positive feedback here. Be sure to leave positive feedback on GB for 'em. Too bad they don't have other auction. I enjoy dealing with straight shooters.

James K
August 18, 2012, 09:58 PM
Some confusion here. The 50 year rule is automatic; the gun does not have to appear on the C&R list. But it applies to an individual gun, not to a model date or date of introduction of a model.

Jim

kilimanjaro
August 18, 2012, 10:53 PM
I have almost had the same problem, managed to verify with the seller first.....simple query "C&R FFL03 OK?", always had an answer in a few hours.

Sure is nice to able to get something delivered to the door!

gyvel
August 19, 2012, 01:18 AM
Using the 50 year old logic, AK 47s were first produced over 50 years ago. I would not expect to see those made before 1962 to be C&R eligible.
I would go by the BATFE CFR list if I was the dealer.

An AK 47 produced 50+ years ago would be a select fire weapon and not eligible for importation.

In a very rare case, if the AK was a 50+ year old transferable gun already in the registry, it most certainly would be eligible for shipment directly to an 03 FFL holder, provided he met all the other usual requirements for obtaining an NFA weapon. (I.e fingerprints, photos, $200.00 tax payment, etc.)

If you were a dealer going only by BATF's list, then you would be losing a lot of potential business by being so narrow minded and ignorant of the law.

zxcvbob
August 19, 2012, 02:40 PM
In a very rare case, if the AK was a 50+ year old transferable gun already in the registry, it most certainly would be eligible for shipment directly to an 03 FFL holder, provided he met all the other usual requirements for obtaining an NFA weapon. (I.e fingerprints, photos, $200.00 tax payment, etc.)


Not only that, wouldn't it save him a $200 transfer fee? (he'd still have to pay one transfer, but not two) And the extra time involved getting the transfer paperwork for the intermediary FFL?

SteveBonning
August 20, 2012, 10:08 AM
And let's not forget....when a listing says, 'licensed FFL dealer', C & R licenses do not 'make us dealers', in fact it prohibits us from being a dealer. Hence always best to ask any seller if they've not specifically addressed sales to C & R licensees.

jag2
August 21, 2012, 01:29 PM
I don't really have anything to add, it's been pretty well covered. However, I have written to Gunbroker before and requested that next time they revamp their page layout that a line be included to state whether or not the dealer will accept a C&R when appropriate. Got kind of a generic answer saying they would pass it along to their tech team. Perhaps if more of you would do something similar we might get their attention. Worth an email anyway to try.