PDA

View Full Version : 5.56-.223 Mags & First AR


bulletproof
August 15, 2012, 11:22 PM
Hi,
I'm just deciding I want to get an AR while I still can. I haven't followed them so I'm pretty ignorant on this subject, this should qualify any questions I might ask, such as this one.
A little history might be called for here. I'm looking to spend a paltry $700 range. The reason for the low price range is I'm old, and also don't have a lot to spend, and since I've got one foot in the grave, and the other foot on a banana peel, I thought an inexpensive model would work for me. I'm currently eying a Doublestar, I was also looking at Del-ton, and DPMS, which I'd not heard of these 3 before, so I don't know which is quality or not, other than basing it on price.? I saw these 2 mentioned in an old thread I viewed, PSA and Spikes, and I just wondered what they are exactly? I plan to get a 5.56 so I can shoot .223 also, when the occasion arises.

And, a day or 2 ago, I got to wondering if the 5.56 & the .223 magazines are interchangeable, or would I need separate mags for each? I'm pretty sure there's some here that can shed some light on this subject and my questions.? Thanks in advance.

Quentin2
August 15, 2012, 11:43 PM
5.56 and .223 ammo both work fine in AR magazines.

It's hard for me to recommend a $700 AR, I think it's wise to buy something a little better. But if that's all you can go then look at the S&W M&P-15 Sport.

madcratebuilder
August 16, 2012, 07:06 AM
PSA or Palmetto State Armory (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05.html) has great pricing on quality AR's. They are mail order only if not local. If you are going to buy local then the S&W is a nice AR for the money.

The 5.56 and .223 are essentially the same physical size. The 5.56 round well normally run your AR better than the .223 ammo, but you can shoot either one.

Keep the nitro pills close and have fun.

thesheepdog
August 16, 2012, 08:27 AM
Don't buy any "off brand" AR's.
Put your money into a brand that has a decent reputation.

I can't recommend anything more than that.

RT
August 16, 2012, 08:42 AM
Look into the S&W M&P sport with the Melonite treated barrel. Magpul Pmags are probably your best bet, otherwise Brownells has some nice aluminum mags

bulletproof
August 16, 2012, 03:23 PM
1) Thanks for ur replies. Thanks for the PSA link. Bud's & CTDrt, are the only 2 places I know with good pricing. Any more links with good pricing is appreciated? I was wanting a S&W M&P but most are outta my price range. I've looked at the S&W M&P-15 Sport at Bud's, but they only have it with the Calif restrictive 10 round mag. And, CTD don't list one.

2) I had hopes of finding something with iron sights as well as putting a scope on what I eventually buy, like I have on my Rem. 700, 30-06, with the rings I can look thru if the scope fails. I also am not very familiar with these new scopes, red dots, how far they project, etc. But, can you even use iron sights and scopes together on AR's? Or, is it one or the other?

3) Could ya'll take a look at a couple rifles I've looked at at Bud's and tell me if these 2 Bushmasters is a reliable mfg. co.?and what you think of these 2 rifles?

A) http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/69657

B) http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/79/products_id/46149/Rifles/Ruger/Ruger+Rimfire+Autoloading/Bushmaster+16%22+OPTIC+READY

Coltman 77
August 16, 2012, 03:46 PM
My local gunshop has plenty of Colt 6920's for $1050.00. Colt is the standard by which all AR15's are judged.

I'd strongly suggest you wait, save a bit more and get a mil spec Colt. They've been making AR's for our armed forces since the early sixties, are worth the $ difference and hold their value.

Lifetime warranty is also good piece of mind. (But you won't need it.)

Good luck, let us know what you decide to do. :)

BillyJack3
August 16, 2012, 05:41 PM
I can't comment on the Bushmaster as I've never owned one or shot one. They tend to get up and down reviews since the Cerebrus buy out a while back. Windham Weaponry is the "new" Bushmaster and was started by the guy that started Bushmaster who bought his old factory back and hired most of his staff back.

If you get something without optics and a railed gas block, plan on getting an iron sight which can be pricy. Minimum $100 for a front and rear on the cheap end.

Others have recommended the Smith M&P Sport and I'll back that 100%. I have the M&P OR and it's been an outstanding AR. If you look around, you may be able to find out for about $600. It's worth the search.

As for Palmetto and Spikes, both are also great companies. I have a Spike's AR that I built with a Palmetto lower build kit. It's just as much fun as my M&P is to shoot but came with a front sight block.

Best of luck in your search!

customaquatics
August 16, 2012, 06:00 PM
well FN does make the barrels for Palmetto an i love mine an you really can't beat them. they are around the same price as the S&W sports an PSA's come with the dust cover an foward assist, also that 1-7" twist barrel too for heavier hunting loads.

Basement-Gunsmith-Z
August 16, 2012, 11:29 PM
I would recommend a s&w m&p15 sport. Great rifle for the money.
If you have the time, I will recommend that you build your first ar, there isn't a better way to learn about your rifle.

bulletproof
August 17, 2012, 01:24 AM
Coltman 77: Lifetime warranty is also good piece of mind. (But you won't need it.) :D That sounds like something I'd say, love it!

I really like the S&W's, & the sport is more in my price range, but PSA is out of stock right now. Maybe I can find one. Can ya'll recommend any more good places to search?

Although I'd like to, I don't have time to build. Remember, got one foot on banana peel.:)

Thanks for your replies, Keep'em coming.

allaroundhunter
August 17, 2012, 02:17 AM
I have a Doublestar, and it is a wonderful rifle. Never had a problem that was caused by the rifle (bad mags have caused a few), and the rifle is very accurate! You would not be disappointed with one!

Sent from my HTC One X

learningcurve
August 17, 2012, 10:21 AM
I have both a dpms and a RRA rifle both I love the RRA weighs so much more though, The dpms was a cheaper rifle sub 700 bucks if memory serves the RRA was over 1000 I know that for sure. The dpms had a few bad runs to start but that was due to the cheap crappy al. ones they came with, literally the whole mag broke apart while in the gun, the welds busted and the bottom came out and no I was abusing them, the LGS I got the rifle from was even surprised as I was on his range shooting the moment I purchased it. So I got swapped for magpul and never looked back.

I brought that all up to point out cheap mags can and will cause issues, I have seen it on everything you can think of at my Leo range. Our range master trys all sorts of things to see what should or could be used safely. He figured out a long time ago and it is very true pay for quality and it should never fail you. Same reason I dont suggest those cheap 25 dollar red dots for anything over a 22lr. Again this is all my opinion but I find my self shooting my DPMS more the RRA and it has not failed me as of yet from a actual gun related failure.

The one thing I do try to get all my friends to get is the 5.56 chamber since that is a higher pressure round then the standard 223, I feel it gives you some protection against a bad round from the factory or if you reload. Hope this rambling helps out.

Sabre9mm
August 17, 2012, 05:14 PM
I just crossed the same bridge, started my budget at $800.

Did a LOT of shopping around, settled higher, but am DAMN satisfied with my purchase.

I ended up just a little > $1k for the rifle, got a S&W M&P, but did not go sport, got the forward assist and port cover, will eat 5.56 and .223.
If you look at the sport next to the one I purchased, there is a visible and a tactile diference

Have 5 magpull polly 30 round mags, one with target 55gr ammo, the other four 75gr BTHP.

It was a hard call to blow the budget, but there is a HUGE line between the $800 and $1k range.

I cannot speak for the quality of the guns below that range, some are highly spoken of, and some of them felt nice to hold, but the line between "glad I own it" and "proud to" left me looking up a couple hundred.

bulletproof
August 17, 2012, 05:52 PM
For some reason I wasn't notified in my email about the last 2 posts here. I just returned here to ask another question.

While looking at the S&W M&P tactical website, I noticed that some of the M&P's such as the Sport says 5.56 mm NATO, and others like the M&P15 say 5.56 mm NATO / .223. Why is that?

allaroundhunter
August 17, 2012, 06:38 PM
For some reason I wasn't notified in my email about the last 2 posts here. I just returned here to ask another question.

While looking at the S&W M&P tactical website, I noticed that some of the M&P's such as the Sport says 5.56 mm NATO, and others like the M&P15 say 5.56 mm NATO / .223. Why is that?

Possibly because people who are looking at the higher end models are already aware that an AR chambered for 5.56 will also fire .223 and did not want to restate it, but wanted to state so on their entry level guns so that those who are just getting into the AR game will understand that it can handle both.

Sent from my HTC One X

chris in va
August 17, 2012, 06:52 PM
5.56 will shoot 223 also, but not the other way around. Most AR's are chambered for 5.56 for this reason.

Get a Sport. Mine is great.

Achilles11B
August 17, 2012, 07:59 PM
Buy once, cry one. Stack a few more quarters up and get something from one of the many top-notch manufacturers out there.

Mobuck
August 17, 2012, 08:12 PM
I have AR's from Bushmaster, Olympic, S&W, Delton(DTI), RRA, CMMG, homebrew, and even a COLT. For 99% of the users, any of them will suffice.
I'm not so young myself and don't put much stock in logo ego.
My constant wintertime companion is a Delton and it's never let me down. Out side every day. Snow, cold, wet or whatever comes-it still looks good and shoots as well as I would expect from a 16" w/1-5x scope.
Midway USA has a special on a 16" carbine upper that ships to your door. Pick a namebrand lower and push the pins in and you're ready to go. Unless your eyes are holding up better than mine, you should go for a flattop so you can mount optics.

UtahHunting
August 17, 2012, 08:37 PM
I will recommend the S&W M&P 15 Sport. $650 and comes with sites. Ready to shoot out of the box. I just picked one up a couple weeks back for much of the same reasons you have mentioned. I want to get one while I still can and didn't want to spend a lot of money.

Took it out and shot it this last weekend. Put 120 rounds of steel cased tulammo through it without a hiccup. Ordered a couple of 20 round mags from 44mag.com which were cheap and work great.

bulletproof
August 17, 2012, 09:29 PM
I don't know how to do a "Quote" in a post, so I'll try to reply the best I can to y'all, forgive me if I leave you out.

1) Even though the Sport comes with sights, I can still put a scope of some kind on it, RIGHT?

2) That's the reason I want the 5.56, so I can shoot both 5.56 and .223. A good friend just bought a Savage .223 & I tried to tell him that I would not fire a 5.56 in a .223. He says, Ohhhh, they're the same thing. Okay, says I, he'll have to learn the hard way I guess.

3) My eyes are not holding up that's why I'll nee a scope or red dot or something. I need to find a website that will show me a sight picture of what I'll see when looking thru these new fangled optics. Getting old ain't fer "sissies"!

I'm enjoying ya'lls help! Send me some more if you can!

allaroundhunter
August 17, 2012, 09:40 PM
Bulletproof, with the sport, yes, you would still be able to mount an optic even though it has iron sights. However, if you use a red dot, the front sight post will be visible and will look something like this:

http://img.tapatalk.com/62c2ed76-00ca-3fd2.jpg

It doesn't make it harder to shoot or anything, and in the event that your red dot runs out of batter you can still use your flip-up iron sights so I like it.


Sent from my HTC One X

bulletproof
August 18, 2012, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the sight pic. What do you do, place that red dot on your target?


Anybody ever buy anything from this site? www.gunsamerica.com

allaroundhunter
August 18, 2012, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the sight pic. What do you do, place that red dot on your target?

After you sight it in, then yes it is as easy as that. Red dot on your target, and press the trigger.


Sent from my HTC One X

bulletproof
August 18, 2012, 02:52 PM
Do the AR's require a lot of cleaning, how often do ya'll clean?

Are they hard to clean?

thesheepdog
August 18, 2012, 03:02 PM
Do the AR's require a lot of cleaning, how often do ya'll clean?

Are they hard to clean?

No. They keep going and going.

I clean mine after every range session usually but that to me is like getting the oil changed on my car every month.

They get dirty like a lot of other guns do but they're extremely reliable.

bulletproof
August 18, 2012, 07:29 PM
Not having any luck finding the Sport. Looks like if I want a S&W MP 15 of some flavor, I'm gonna have to come up with a little more cash and take a step up the ladder to the next rung.

About iron sights & optics again. I should be able to get a model with iron sights, and still top it with a scope, red dot, etc, would that be correct? To clarify: Meaning that the iron sights, or optic wouldn't interfere with the other.

And, if you could I'd appreciate any suggestions/recommendations you might have on an optic that's say under$99, OK a $100 then?

Thanks


Once again, thanks for all your replies!

Sabre9mm
August 19, 2012, 11:09 AM
Mine came without any sights it was labeled "optics ready"

They did have a few dots on slide rails so they could be slid out of the way of iron sights if they are on there. Do not remember the price.

I have seen before scope mounts that were high with ports through the base so you could see the iron sights with it on.

It is an addiction, and I have just about given up on budgeting, just buying and justifying somehow...:D

bulletproof
August 19, 2012, 01:42 PM
QUOTE:I have seen before scope mounts that were high with ports through the base so you could see the iron sights with it on.
That's how my scope on my 30.06 is.

just buying and justifying somehow.. My wife does it like that, sooooo, it oughta work for me too!

meanmachine1961
August 19, 2012, 01:46 PM
I recently won a M&P Sport off of Gunbroker. Got a great deal and the transaction was smooth as butter.

Sabre9mm
August 19, 2012, 01:57 PM
"My wife does it like that, sooooo, it oughta work for me too!"

Yep, I am about to pull 30k out as a down payment on her new office, a few more for my toys is not an unreasonable request is it?

Call them both retirement investments...

Justice06RR
August 20, 2012, 04:45 AM
Here are 2 suggestions for optics/scope:

1. Bushnell Banner 3-9x40 Scope with 6-inch eye relief.
bought mine for about $80 shipped from Amazon. Quality is excellent and the glass is very clear, all the way to maximum magnification. You can still use back-up iron sights even with the A-post front sight and low-profile rear sight. You just have to remove the scope, which takes like 15 seconds.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Banner-Multi-X-Reticle-6-Inch/dp/B0002IKQBS/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1345455187&sr=1-2&keywords=bushnell+banner+3-9x40

2. Burris Trophy 1x Red dot : $85shipped from Amazon but you will need to buy the extra riser to effectively use backup iron sights. If you want a non-magnification optic this is the way to go. Affordable and funtional. My roomate has it and you can Co-witness with your iron sights.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-TRS-25-1xRed-Riflescope/dp/B00200E0HM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1345455026&sr=8-4&keywords=burris+red+dot

Of the two, the Bushnell is considerably longer because of the magnification obviously, but it really helps when you plan to shoot 100yards + frequently. I have the Bushnell and it is an excellent value and quality.


As far as the AR itself, check your local SuperWalmart if there's any in your area. I checked last weekend and mine has a Colt, Sig, Bushmaster, and DPMS in stock. I have owned a Bushmaster M4A3 and from my experience they are still decent quality for the money.

For reference here is the Bushnell 3-9 magnification scope. Beeotch is long but it does not interfere with your front sight since its a magnified optic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/eiji81/AR15/76dae9dd.jpg

bulletproof
August 24, 2012, 09:47 PM
Justice06RR, thanks for the pics & links.

Have any ya'll bought anything from PSA(Palmetto State Armory) before? The reason I ask is because I can't reach them on the phone, and they don't reply to my personal email questions. But, I do receive almost daily "sale" emails from them.

Does anybody know the answers to the following questions?

Any problems with your order?

Are they fast about shipping orders?

Do you know if they charge sales tax or not, I'm in Ky.?

Just a few things I wanted to ask them. Thanks for your help!

moxie
August 27, 2012, 09:23 PM
Rather than waste time worrying this to pieces, with one foot on the banana peel, go down to Walmart. They have, usually, several AR15s, under $900, that are perfectly serviceable. Bushmaster is fine. So is DPMS. You can mount any optic you want on just about any AR. Do it.

bulletproof
August 27, 2012, 10:27 PM
just yesterday ordered the S&W M&P #811000.

thanks...

Carne Frio
August 27, 2012, 10:42 PM
Here is a good link to information on how to take care of an AR.

http://www.ep.tc/problems/25/index.html

It was created for GI's in basic training and is well done.:D

bulletproof
August 27, 2012, 10:50 PM
hey, thanks for the link

Sabre9mm
August 28, 2012, 12:33 PM
Hey... Is that Major Houlihan in the orange suit? :confused:

Drhc116
August 28, 2012, 02:54 PM
Stag Arms with Magpul P-Mags

Metal god
August 28, 2012, 11:42 PM
I have a DTI Del-Ton $850 0ut the door . It shoots well and has never jamed or failed to feed . I have only put about 500 rounds though it so it just getting broke in .

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/835/phone2011.jpg

I just finished this PSA biuld $ 1,030 out the door.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4607/phone2004.jpg

Build it if you can . they are really not that hard to build and you can save some money . actually you will not save any money on the first one . There are some tools you will need . The rest of them you will save money on .

If you want quick and easy the M&P sport is the way to go .

If you have the time ,build you own and get to know your rifle .It's really fun .

As for cleaning I clean mine after every shoot and lube the bolt just before I start shooting . There are a ton of videos on youtube

If you want specifics . I clean my bore just like any other rifle .

I take much more time on the Chamber and use a chamber brush and T-handle .

As for the BCG I take it apart and clean each piece well .

The lower tends not to get to dirty . I clean mine with a rag,Q-tips and maybe some compressed air .I do not clean my buffer and spring every time I clean My rifle If you find your self really cleaning around the fire control group , a drop or two of oil in that area would be good after your done .

Wipe the hole thing down and you done . You may want to look under the hand gaurd once and a while . Make sure there is no rust or dirt building up .

bulletproof
September 3, 2012, 11:07 PM
Good looking rifles you've posted there.

OK, i finally picked my S&W M&P the other day. Still have to get optic, it has no sights. Model # 811003.

1) The barrel on mine looks just like Justice06RR's that is in his picture he posted, except mine is minus the front sight. Why does the barrel have those separations in it, like it has been spliced together, what's the purpose of that?

2) I'm 6' 2", and even with the 6 position stock, when I got my rifle, it is still too short for me. What, if anything, can remedy that?

Metal god
September 3, 2012, 11:18 PM
That notch in the barrel is so you can attach a grenade launcher to it . I believe it's a Mil-spec barrel or the same type of barrel thats on the military issued rifles .

BarryLee
September 3, 2012, 11:19 PM
I'm not 100% sure what you are referring to, but I think the “splices” are there to allow mounting a grenade launcher.

So, why do you think your rifle is too short? You could try replacing the butt pad for another inch or so of length. If you need more than that you may need another stock.

allaroundhunter
September 3, 2012, 11:19 PM
1) The barrel on mine looks just like Justice06RR's that is in his picture he posted, except mine is minus the front sight. Why does the barrel have those separations in it, like it has been spliced together, what's the purpose of that?

2) I'm 6' 2", and even with the 6 position stock, when I got my rifle, it is still too short for me. What, if anything, can remedy that?

1) Those are M203 cuts. They are there as a mounting point for an M203 launcher; not necessarily applicable to civilian shooters, but some like it for the novelty/looks.

2) You can add a recoil pad that will add a little LOP, but other than that you would have to change stocks. You can go to a full A2 style stock, but IMO they take away from the aesthetics of the "carbine".

Metal god
September 3, 2012, 11:36 PM
You will get used to it . Im 6'4" and at first I felt the same way . Now they all fit like a glove . There right all you can do is put a bigger but pad on it , I did and it helped . You have to remember its a multi use gun . It needs to be compact for urban environments as well as be able to engage long range targets . There has to be a little trade off . My Del-Ton (the dark earth one in the pictures )felt very compact and not very comfortible but as soon as I put that front grip on it .OMG It feels sssooo good . Give it time It should not take long .

P.S. lets see some pics it's time to show off the new member of the family :D

bulletproof
September 4, 2012, 11:09 PM
Your replies confirm just what I was thinking as I waited for your answers. Like you say maybe i'll get used to it.

Here's the only pic I have available at the moment, no camera right now. Hope this will suffice.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764994_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

allaroundhunter
September 5, 2012, 12:03 AM
bulletproof,

You picked a great AR, and you will enjoy it for a long time (until you get another AR and have to split time between the two ;))

bulletproof
September 5, 2012, 06:16 PM
Thanks. From research it appeared that all the S&W M&P's are good guns. I was trying get one in a hurry in order to beat the politicians to the punch, and I was trying to make an informed decision that i would have buyers remorse about later. But, like you, I think I made a pretty good choice, even though I bought in a rush, and online every site seemed to be sold out. Thanks again.

Ya'll will probably know better than me about this comment. I'm thinking that budsgunshop probably sell more guns than most any shop anywhere, and they are able to restock their racks, when others can't get any guns to sell. Right or wrong?

allaroundhunter
September 5, 2012, 06:38 PM
Right or wrong?

They definitely have more distributor connections than most, but they still have problems getting their hands on guns that are highly requested.

bulletproof
September 5, 2012, 06:51 PM
I just remembered something that I need to ask before I forget it.Do ya'll mix .223 & 5.56 in the same magazine, & is there any feeding, etc. problems in doing that? I think I heard somewhere to not mix them.?

allaroundhunter
September 5, 2012, 06:58 PM
Do ya'll mix .223 & 5.56 in the same magazine, & is there any feeding, etc. problems in doing that? I think I heard somewhere to not mix them.?

You won't have any problems mixing them, and when you shoot you won't notice the difference (except for possible variations on impact on the target if you are shooting for groups).

I don't mix them, because I just load my mags from the same lot of ammo.

Metal god
September 5, 2012, 08:57 PM
I almost always shoot for accuracy . Not always MOA but Im shooting at something I want to hit . I don't mix 223 with 5.56 or brands with other brands or even wieghts of the same brand . Each of those things can change point of impact . I don't want 4 different impact points out of the same mag .

Now this is generally speaking
The twist rate of your barrel matters a great deal when it comes to the wieght on the bullet you will be shooting . 1-7 twist 62 grians or higher . 1-8 twist for the most part any wieght ,1-9 twist anything up to 62 grains . They say if you shoot lets say a 40 grain bullet out of a 1-7 you can spin the copper jacket right of the bullet . 1-9 twist is not fast enough to stabilze a heavier bullet .

If your shooting at lets say a bowling pin at 50 yards . you will probably hit it with what ever is in your mag . Put that same pin at 3 or 4 hundred yards and its going to matter what your gun likes to shoot .

Im sure you know but I'll say it any ways . Not all guns shoot the same ammo the same . You will need to take a bunch of different ammo out to the range and try them all out and see what your gun likes the best .

bulletproof
September 20, 2012, 10:53 PM
I started to start a new thread, but thought I just as well stick to this one.

Optics:
1) I think the shorter ones like most of the military use look the best, but, I know cosmetics are not the important thing here. BTW, are those short ones on the military "Red Dots"?

2) Hey, Metal god, can you tell me what the scope is on your black PSA build rifle in your pic you posted here, on page 2 of this thread?

3) I've only looked thru 1 red dot, and it seems to me that I might as well be looking thru plain piece of glass, except it has the red dot. So as for those, I don't see the difference than say, having the iron sights. They seem about the same to me.?

4) All I've ever had are the plain ol variable, magnification scopes. I got this rifle basically because I wanted it before the anti-gun politicians try to ban them again. I'll use it for self defense, varmints(you know, that covers a lot of territory, don't it?) hunting. So, I'll probably be looking at a variable of sorts, unless yawl can convince me that there's an advantage to a red dot.?

Metal god
September 21, 2012, 02:56 AM
It's funny you just posted this . I was just talking to a few people about red-dot vs Acog . If money is no object then the Acog is the way to go hands down . I was told by someone that uses them professionally . The trijicon acog is the best optic out there for the AR platform . I assume you know what the AR platform is truly designed for ,yes ? Generally the trijicon acog 4X32 is what the military uses http://www.midwayusa.com/product/770802/trijicon-acog-ta01nsn-rifle-scope-4x-32-m4a1-military-version-yellow-illuminated-range-finding-duplex-reticle-with-ta51-mount-matte. Im sure some special forces use other sights like Red-dots and others as well.

OK .that being said . There is alot of optics out there for AR civilian use that will work great for alot less money .

As far as red-dot vs iron sights ( peep sights ) There is really no comparison . While using iron sights you keep one eye closed and have to keep the front post in focus .While pretty much everything else is a blur . With a red-dot you can keep your target in focus and just put the dot right where you want the bullet to impact . You also can keep both eyes open and have a huge field of view and still keep the dot on target . A red-dot is great for shooting out to 100 yards or so. You can shoot longer distances with them but out to 100 yards is about as far as you'll want to go .. You have very fast target acquisition . I have one on my 10/22 and with no recoil happening it is insane how fast you can acquire your target and move to the next .

It really is going to come down to what your going to be shooting at the most and/or what you want your AR ready to shoot at . I think a magnified optic would not be your best choice for HD but it's perfect for shoot 200 plus yards . It's what do you want your gun for , and build it to match . You can spend alot of money on stuff that you ultimately do not use . I have so much extra stuff from builds , I can almost build another AR

You REALLY need more then one AR :D

Here are some optics I have been considering
First magnified
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-magnified-optics-package.html
http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Compact-Bright-Vision-Detach/dp/B005EOV1QE/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TMARKPBK339L&coliid=I2NS0GQBDZES8I
http://www.ar15scopes.com/AR15_And_Tactical_Scopes-3-9x42_IR_2nd_Generation_Sniper_Scope_by_Barska.html
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Leupold174-Mark-AR8482-Series-Riflescopes/720914.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3DAR%2Bscope%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26x%3D21%26y%3D11&Ntt=AR+scope&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

Now for the Red-Dots
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/sights-optics/red-dot-scopes/aimpoint-patrol-rifle-optic.html
http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-StrikeFire-Scope-AR15-SF-BR-AR15/dp/B003GSRNJY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TMARKPBK339L&coliid=I3DW447MB2WDD1
http://www.amazon.com/UTG-DS3840-4-Inch-Mounts-Flip-open/dp/B004HICPHW/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TMARKPBK339L&coliid=I2GEFS5W408V4U This is the Red-Dot on the black AR . I bought and use this on my 10/22 primarily. I have used it on the AR and it seemed to work fine . I say that cus one time it lost zero . At the time I did not have the windage & elevation knobs locked down so that might have been why .
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/352394/eotech-xps2-0-holographic-weapon-sight-65-moa-circle-with-1-moa-dot-reticle-matte-cr123-battery

Like I said I was just talking about this with some friends and this is my dream package
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/180750/eotech-exps3-4-holographic-weapon-sight-223-remington-ballistic-reticle-cr123-battery-generation-2-3x-magnifier-and-swing-to-side-quick-detachab

This way I would have close range and long range options covered

Edward429451
September 22, 2012, 10:02 PM
Bushmaster makes a decent AR. I paid right at 800 not too long ago for their standard model XM15e2s 20" full stock removable handle. I keep it clean and oiled and it runs fine. No complaints. Big enough name for my uses, and came with a warranty as a complete rifle.

garryc
September 22, 2012, 10:14 PM
I'm looking to spend a paltry $700 range

Go to DS Arms. Get the upper and the lower separate and then order the bolt and carrier and charging handle. That should keep you under your $700 mark.

http://www.dsarms.com/#

Justice06RR
September 24, 2012, 04:59 AM
I'll try to answer some of your questions based on my experience and research.

I started to start a new thread, but thought I just as well stick to this one.

Optics:
1) I think the shorter ones like most of the military use look the best, but, I know cosmetics are not the important thing here. BTW, are those short ones on the military "Red Dots"?

If you are talking about Trijicon ACOG's, yes they are technically red dots (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Usually they are a fixed magnification like 4x, or sometimes no magnification depending on the optic.

There are also Eotech's which are Holographic Red Dots. I highly recommend Eotech's for civilian use as it allows for true targat acquisition with both eyes open. With red dots you still have to close one eye sometimes.


3) I've only looked thru 1 red dot, and it seems to me that I might as well be looking thru plain piece of glass, except it has the red dot. So as for those, I don't see the difference than say, having the iron sights. They seem about the same to me.?

It's really all user preference based on what your purpose is. A red dot allows for quick target acquisition. It will also allow you to shoot with both eyes open.

On the other hand, with Iron sights you have to focus your dominant eye and close the other. it usually takes longer to acquire your target with iron sights.

4) All I've ever had are the plain ol variable, magnification scopes. I got this rifle basically because I wanted it before the anti-gun politicians try to ban them again. I'll use it for self defense, varmints(you know, that covers a lot of territory, don't it?) hunting. So, I'll probably be looking at a variable of sorts, unless yawl can convince me that there's an advantage to a red dot.?

It's really up to you. What I recommend is getting different optics/scopes for different purposes; don't limit yourself to just one.

A variable magnification scope is great for shooting long distances, but not for CQB. A non-magnified red dot would be better for close ranges. The beauty of the AR platform is that you can switch and change out your optics at anytime (if you are not in a time constraint, and with the right setup i.e. flat top upper receiver)


Just for example,here are my different optics. I can switch them around to any of my other AR's if needed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/eiji81/AR15/DSCI0136.jpg

Iron sights only
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/eiji81/AR15/DSCI0270_zps381c0ec3.jpg

and a Red Dot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/eiji81/AR15/DSCI0274_zps968cf434.jpg

bulletproof
September 25, 2012, 06:17 PM
I'm having computer problems, so I haven't been able to reply. Not sure if I got it fixed yet.

Thanks Justice06RR for pics, and to Metal god for links, and for everyone's reply. I've got a lot going on, and haven't had time to research optics a lot yet. But, I mainly got this for home defense, and otherwise. And, depending on 11/06/12, there could very well be a whole lot of "Otherwise".

So, I'm kinda thinking that maybe a red dot would suffice best. I kinda like the looks, and the Features, and Specs of it and price of the one at:

http://www.amazon.com/UTG-Compact-Bright-Vision-Detach/dp/B005EOV1QE/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TMARKPBK339L&coliid=I2NS0GQBDZES8I

I need to study a little more first, but, it seems to fit the bill. Like I said, I think I'll be using it more for close up shots than long range.

Once again, I really appreciate all your replies, you've all been a great resource for me!! Any, and all welcome! Thanks!

EDIT: I just realized this is a "Magnified" scope. I was thinking it was a "Red Dot, when I posted this. Like I said I need to do more reviewing, but, I do still like this one.

darkgael
September 26, 2012, 04:12 AM
While using iron sights you keep one eye closed and have to keep the front post in focus.]

I beg to differ. You can keep both eyes open and probably should as closing one eye increases strain on the muscles of the aiming eye.

Trijicon ACOG's, yes they are technically red dots
Trijicon ACOGs are not red dot sights. Though Trijicon does make red dots (and very nice ones too), the ACOG is a telescopic sight with crosshairs...very clear, bright image. Worth the money.
Pete

Metal god
September 27, 2012, 02:32 AM
I beg to differ. You can keep both eyes open and probably should as closing one eye increases strain on the muscles of the aiming eye.


Hum , I just pulled out my AR with the iron sights . I have to say at close range and well lit area I can keep both eyes open and see the target . How ever low light or longer ranges its much more difficult .

That was just glancing and or looking down the sights . Im not sure if I could keep both eyes open if I were actually shooting . With the guns recoil and then me having to reaquire the target I think that would be very tuff for me . It is easier with the large aperture then the small one but I guess that goes with out saying .

I will tell you this . The next time im out shooting I will be trying this .

bulletproof
September 28, 2012, 07:24 PM
I'm gonna tell ya, with iron sights, & both eyes open everything is just a blur for me.

1) This buying just never stops does it.? I'm gonna need some more mags too. I just noticed in the pics that Justice06RR posted above that his mags have an open or clear space so you can see the ammo. I've not seen that before Where do you get those? Magpul?

2) I saw where PSA has some aluminum mags on sale. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/accessories/magazines/rifle-magazines/ar-15/dh-5-56-30rd-aluminum-mag-10294.html

I'm pretty sure they'll fit my S&W M&P.? I received 1 polymer Magpul when I got it. The aluminum should work okay, right?

Metal god
September 28, 2012, 08:56 PM
Yep it never ends . Welcome to the club

That PSA deal is not bad . You should be able to find mags all over the net at good prices including the Magpul ones with the windows . If they are for the AR15 , 223/5.56 they should work in your M&P just fine . Gun shows are a good place to pick up mags as well. I get alot of my bulk ammo from this site ( free shipping on all bulk ammo ) http://www.targetsportsusa.com/ . They also have other stuff like mags . They are not always the best price but they seem to stay competitive .

Unfortunately Im in C.A. and can't have mags that except more then 10 rounds . This makes it much harder for me to get mags at a good price . If your going to do any bench shooting useing a rest . I also would recommend you getting a few 20 or even 10 round mags . The 30 round mags can stick down to far and hit the table making it hard to get comfortable on the bench/rest .

pturner67
September 28, 2012, 09:22 PM
edit: disregard

bulletproof
September 29, 2012, 09:52 AM
1) Hey Metal god in those links you posted on Sept. 21, do they all come with the rings mount, etc. so that they are ready to install when received?

2) I was looking for a scope that does not require a battery. I was thinking that the 2nd. scope in your magnified list the UTG 4x32 Compact CQB Scope did not need a battery, but, I just saw that it does require a battery, & it would seem that it is hard to find that particular battery. I've never heard of this one, Batteries: CR1620 3V? It lists it as Batteries, so it requires more than one.?? Well, if it does, that sucks.

EDIT: (3) Do the scopes that require battery/batteries, do they come with the batteries supplied??

Metal god
September 29, 2012, 04:35 PM
OK i think the UTG scope and red dot come with the battery , mine did .I also bought 10 more batterys for like $7 bucks on amazon . Now for the scope that is magnified . The scope has an illuminated reticle . That means when the scope is turned off You have a regular black reticle and you can turn it on and choose from red or green reticle . With the magnified scope you really don't need a battery in it to use it . It should work just like a regular scope . Unlike the red dot if its not on your just looking through some glass with no reference point .:) The UTG scope comes with mounts . Most Red-Dots come with mounts and some scopes do . You will need to make sure what is what .

bulletproof
September 30, 2012, 12:31 AM
I think I'm gonna order the UTG scope, if I can determine about the batteries and all. I assume that the battery is for the red or green reticle?

I hope you're right about "you really don't need a battery in it to use it . It should work just like a regular scope" It seems all around to fit the bill of what I've been looking for.

Thanks for posting the links when you did!

Edit: I did order the UTG scope.

bulletproof
October 5, 2012, 07:40 PM
how does the steel case ammo run thru the AR rifles?

CharlieDeltaJuliet
October 5, 2012, 08:16 PM
Bulletproof, AR's are great rifles. Congratulations on your decision to purchase one. I have seen them stand more abuse and still work, than most other rifles(AK excluded of course). They are inherently accurate,reliable and all around fun to shoot. Cleaning is a must for any rifle, but they can stand quite a bit of shooting before needing a good cleaning. There is nothing wrong with a DoubleStar or other relatively lower priced AR's. they function great for most people's needs. Another to look at is the S&W M&P Sport. They really impressed me after seeing them go through various torture tests. Either way have fun and update us on what you get and how it works for you....

Metal god
October 5, 2012, 09:02 PM
Steel cased ammo works fine in the AR . Couple things to consider

So I've been doing a little research on the steel case vs brass . What I found out is that steel case ammo does not expand as much as brass . That means at times the steel cases do not expand and seal the chamber completely . When this happens gases and crap can get blown back into the chamber and carbon can start to build up . If your only shooting steel ammo you should be fine cus with the lacquer and other finishes they should still be slick as snott and cycle fine .

I also here if your shooting alot of steel ammo in the same day you do not want to switch to brass . ( first few mags steel then immediately switch to a mag with brass )The reason is the carbon and or burnt lacquer or other finishes that may have built up in the hot chamber can cause the brass cartridge to adhere to chamber wall and fail to extract and that can destroy an extractor or rip the rim off the case .

So only shoot one or the other per trip or per cleaning and always clean your chamber really well after shooting steel cased ammo . If you do not clean the chamber really well after shooting steel ammo the carbon can continue to build up and create problems with all ammo being shot thru the gun .

here is the link http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm

It makes sence to me . Im not sure if there is any science behind it but thats the way im going to do it

If your going to be shooting alot of steel cased ammo I would keep some extra parts with you at the range and really all the time . I don't shoot much steel but I always have this with me http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/field-armorer-s-kit.html

[

p loader
October 5, 2012, 09:32 PM
Reference Red Dots, I am slightly quicker when it comes to target discrimination drills with my Eotech than Aimpoint. Both are outstanding optics and are in use overseas in combat. I find that the "halo" of the Eotech allows me to quickly identify whether or not the specific target I am shooting is within the correct parameters before squeezing off. This is particularly helpful when transitioning laterally from target to target where shots count (HP/LP for example). For me personally I find that method easier than trying to center the single red dot of the Aimpoint (although I can do that as well, just not as fast).

It's all up to personal preference. I say try a few options and see what you like best. Good luck with your purchase.

Justice06RR
October 6, 2012, 04:24 AM
Just to add to the previous magazine question, you have a couple of choices if you want the mags with the window to see the rounds in them.

Magpul Pmags are the most popular and considered one of the best and most reliable.

Lancer magazines also have the complete see-thru mags.

Here is a google image of a Lancer L5 magazine next to a Pmag:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/Alpha-Romeo3/Hunting%20CAR/LMT_LANCER_MAG_LAR001P_ASF.jpg

I've never tried the Lancer mags yet but they look pretty cool so I intend to buy some to try out. They offer the 20-round Lancer mags for $10each at Aimsurplus
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=ML520&name=Lancer+L5+.223+AR15%2fM16+20rd+Translucent+Polymer+Magazine&groupid=658

hope that helps.

Amsdorf
October 6, 2012, 08:14 AM
ARs require regular lubing, cleaning? Depends on how much you want to obsess over it.

Are they "hard" to clean? No.

A tad tedious? Sure.

Here's a video on field stripping your AR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPdWvVjMPPo

bulletproof
October 9, 2012, 11:44 PM
Hey, thanks for the latest pics & links, guys!

I'm confused about what's the difference between gas piston, gas operated rifles. Most of the S&W M&P's say Chromed Components: Barrel Bore, Gas Key Bolt Carrier, Chamber. So, can you explain what's the difference in a piston gun & a Gas Key Bolt Carrier? I am cornfused!

Metal god
October 10, 2012, 03:18 AM
Direct impingement gas system ( DI ) is a completely gas operated system . some of the gases when fired down the barrel are redirected through the gas block back down the gas tube and in to the gas key /BCG and that cycles the next round . A gas piston system uses a piston to push the BCG back to cycle the next round . It is similar but very different . The gases get redircted through the gasblock same as a DI but instead of going all the way down the gas tube it's blocked by the piston . The piston is then pushed back through the upper receiver cycling the BCG . The piston system never throughs hot gases and fouling in to the upper receiver and BCG . The piston system will keep the bolt carrier and upper receiver cleaner while in use but has more components to fail . The BCG and gaskey are just a part of the over all systems . although the BCG for each system are not interchangeble as far as I know .

Here is a video showing how each work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7GTZ0DixqA

Before you ask which one is better, DON'T. All it will do is spark an argument .

.

bulletproof
October 25, 2012, 12:47 PM
Hey Metal god, your quote: http://www.amazon.com/UTG-DS3840-4-I...I2GEFS5W408V4U This is the Red-Dot on the black AR . I bought and use this on my 10/22 primarily. I have used it on the AR and it seemed to work fine . I say that cus one time it lost zero . At the time I did not have the windage & elevation knobs locked down so that might have been why .

Metal god, 1) Were you using the rifle when the scope lost zero, or did you remove it off the rifle?

2) How did you regain the zero?

3) Has this red dot scope held zero since then?

4) I'm now considering getting this red dot. I think a red dot would better suit my older eyesight. I'm assuming that it is parallax free?

5) I also assume that this red dot holds up to the mild recoil of the 5.56/.223?

Metal god
October 25, 2012, 01:22 PM
It lost zero at the range . I was shooting it in the morning to zero it in . Was having a little fun then put it down for a bit . When I started shooting it again a couple hours later it was shooting off a little high abouy 2" at 50 yards . I just re-zeroed and it stayed on target the rest of the day !00 or so rounds . when I got home I look it off and put it back on the 22 . I have sence put it back on the AR and only shot it once about 100 rounds . I did leave it on the gun to see if it will lose zero sitting in my safe . I have not taken it out again yet .

Im sorry but I can't give you a definitive yes or no yet . I would also ad I have not ran it very hard yet or beat it up so there are a few questions I have as well . I'll be going out next week sometime . I will see then .

I have been hearing and reading alot of good things about this red-dot on ARs . I do not own one but I hear they are very good on the AR platform for the money http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-TRS-25-1xRed-Riflescope/dp/B00200E0HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351188971&sr=8-1&keywords=bushnell+red+dot

bulletproof
October 25, 2012, 03:39 PM
Well, I'm sorta leery to order your UTG DS3840 now.

This link http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/24_7/ takes you to an archive. Scroll to the bottom and see they gave a top rating to the Tasco BKRD30 ($50).

I searched Amazon and pulled up these scopes, but I can't tell which one the test is referring to, since they all seem to have BKRD30 in their description. Here's the link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dsporting&field-keywords=tasco+BKRD+30

Do you have any idea which one got the top honor from Gun-Tests?? And, do you think they would hold up the an AR 5.56/.223 light recoil?
Thanks!

Metal god
October 25, 2012, 07:24 PM
You know , I have no idea which red-dot is what . They all look the same but have different disciptions . This one says you can use it on shotguns up to 3" shells . http://www.amazon.com/Tasco-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Reticle/dp/B000GF1HKQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1351205812&sr=1-1&keywords=tasco+BKRD+30 Shotguns have a heck of alot more recoil then an AR .

This one says the same but is almost 10mm bigger in diameter which should give you a bigger field of view http://www.amazon.com/Tasco-Red-Dot-Matte-Green/dp/B00192K7JM/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1351206290&sr=1-3&keywords=tasco+BKRD+30.

The cool thing IMO about lower end products is you can always put them on one of your other guns ( 22s , shotgun ). Thats what I do .

I've got to tell you though . A 5 MOA dot is pretty big . That will cover up a 5" area of your target at 100 yards . If your shooting at something like a squirrel or some other small animal like that . You may not even see it behind the dot . I don't want to be discouraging cus all the lower end red-dots have a big dot . I just wanted to point that out to you .

Nathan
October 25, 2012, 10:55 PM
Cheap AR advice.

The cheapest way to buy an AR, without building, is to buy a complete lower, $300, a complete upper $400 with a bolt carrier group. You can probably beat those prices.

Now, a $700 AR built like this is worth about $700. Don't let a salesman tell you it would be crap or some web freak tell you it will be super. If it breaks, it is on you to repair.

Get a 5.56 chamber. 223 Rem reamers have no place in basic AR's.

Name rifles have warranties.

Stag, Spikes, Delton, Model 1 Sales are all good brands. Spikes would be about the best and Model 1 the cheapest.

Ideally, you would get an EOTech, but you are asking cheap. A $50 red dot is usable. . .sort of.

Buying a $100 scope, $10 rings will leave you needing $50 risers. If you normally fancy $50 - $100 scopes, this should work here.

Using this advice, you would have a fine range gun. It would be yours as bottom rung AR's don't have much of a following. When they do, people like a brand name and to pay $900.

bulletproof
October 26, 2012, 12:42 AM
1) I'm glad you brought that 5MOA up, as I'm not familiar enough with these red dots to know about that. I noticed the your UTG DS3848(that lost zero) in the Amazon description had the MOA as 4.0 in under the "Features" and then again on down under The Product Description it is listed as 3.5MOA. Does your dot seem too large?

2) Here's one that I looked at today http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-TRS-25-1xRed-Riflescope/dp/B00200E0HM/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1345455026&sr=8-4&keywords=burris+red+dot and later I remembered that it is the same one that Justice06RR had posted the link a little while back. It lists a 3M.O.A. under Product Description, and I'm guessing that is about the sise MOA that is needed? Do they come with any smaller MOA than 3? I wish it came with flip up lense covers, I guess you can buy them separate, that will fit? Maybe Justice will chime in here and tell what his experience has been with this RD scope?

3) EDIT I posted this a few seconds ago. The following is a quote from Justice from a while back also.
There are also Eotech's which are Holographic Red Dots. I highly recommend Eotech's for civilian use as it allows for true targat acquisition with both eyes open. With red dots you still have to close one eye sometimes.

I realize now that the only red dot I've looked thru before was a Holographic Red Dot. So, maybe that's really what I need, because I like the idea of shooting with both eyes open. But, now, can I find one that will fit my budget?

Thanks for all replies!

Metal god
October 26, 2012, 01:37 AM
Yea mine's kinda big and when I have it up real bright it has some starburst/hue around the dot that makes it seem bigger . I have always just kept it at the lowest setting I could and still see it . That seems to work really well .

I always have 2 TFL open While I'm replying so I can go back and look at the original post to make sure I'm answer everything . I just noticed your edit . If your looking to step up your budget .There will be a hole lot of other red-dots to consider . What may your new budget be ? If it's gone up to around $200 I have a few more ideas but if your still at $100 or less your on the right track

This is the cheapest Eotech I have found new .http://www.amazon.com/EOTech-512-A65-Tactical-HOLOgraphic-Batteries/dp/B000KKFVRC/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1351233179&sr=1-1&keywords=EOTech+512.A65+Tactical+HOLOgraphic

The real bumer is it's been $370 for the last month and it just went up a couple days ago :(

This is real nice , you can beat the hell out these and they will hold zero http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/sights-optics/red-dot-scopes/aimpoint-patrol-rifle-optic.html

Metal god
October 26, 2012, 03:10 AM
Here are a few more at the higher price range . All of these are designed for the heavier recoiling guns and should work great on an AR

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/sights-optics/red-dot-scopes/vortex-sparc-red-dot-optic.html -2 MOA dot

http://www.amazon.com/Vortex-StrikeFire-Scope-AR15-SF-BR-AR15/dp/B003GSRNJY/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=TMARKPBK339L&coliid=I3DW447MB2WDD1 --4 MOA dot

http://www.amazon.com/Sig-Sauer-Red-Sights-SIGHTMRD/dp/B001FT4S9E/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1351237963&sr=1-1&keywords=sig+sauer+red+dot -- It does not look black but they say it is .

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/637702/tasco-propoint-ts-red-dot-sight-32mm-tube-1x-5-moa-dot-with-weaver-style-ring-matte--I' --I'm just a big fan of tasco .

bulletproof
October 26, 2012, 08:19 PM
you said: I always have 2 TFL open: Does that mean 2 Firingline Threads?

Just a quick reply to let you know that I've seen your posts. And, yes, it looks like I don't have much of a choice, cause it seems that the less expensive scopes/RD's won't suit. I don't want to have to return them, if possible. Now, I'm looking at $80-$100. Trying to keep the budget low, but, want a usable optic. I'll be bock, that's my Swartzneggar impression, but, u probably knew that.

Thanks.

smokiniron
October 26, 2012, 08:29 PM
I will recommend the S&W M&P 15 Sport. $650 and comes with sites.

I appreciate the endorsement of the S&W.
I just bought a S&W M&P 15 Sport at our local CalRanch for $599 plus tax. No background check fee since I'm CCW, one Magpul magazine, iron Magpul flip-up sights... very nice weapon!

I'm about like Bulletproof, in age and proximity to the Grim Reaper. I want a 'just in case' gun (and for some fun with coyotes on the west desert).

I looked at lots of posts with about the same question as Bulletproof and the S&W came up as a common recommendation.

Good luck in the decision!

Metal god
October 26, 2012, 09:10 PM
Does that mean 2 Firingline Threads?

No two internet explorers open with TFL open in both . one with the OP thread and the other is the one Im writing the the reply in . That way I can reference the OP with out closing my reply window . I was in the middle of replying when I went back to look at your last post to reference someting and saw your edit .

You may want to start a new thread about the lower end red-dots . You will get alot more hits with guy that have working knowlege of the products . Maybe even search TFL for one Im sure there out there .

Here is one http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504470&highlight=red+dot

and another http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502490&highlight=red+dot

you should still start your own with the specifics your looking for . $100 , 3 MOA or less , able to handle 223/5.56 recoil .

bulletproof
October 27, 2012, 12:20 AM
OP: Other person, right?

Something I discovered recently is that when replying to a thread, you can scroll down below the text box and you will find the other responses. Then you would only have to open up one IE browser instead of 2.

Okay, it'll take me a while to read thru the thread links you provided, and then I might post a new thread if necessary.
Thanks.

Metal god
October 27, 2012, 12:33 AM
OP --( original post ) I also use OP when referring to the last post the original poster , posted . Holy cow now I'm confused :D

LOL now thats funny I never scrolled down before . Thanks that will help

allaroundhunter
October 27, 2012, 05:59 AM
Something I discovered recently is that when replying to a thread, you can scroll down below the text box and you will find the other responses. Then you would only have to open up one IE browser instead of 2.


....My life just got so much simpler....

bulletproof
October 27, 2012, 12:30 PM
Well, glad I was able to finally give something back for all ya'lls help!!

bulletproof
October 29, 2012, 01:09 AM
Hey, Justice06RR, below is a quote of yours from this thread located on Page 2.
A) Since my rifle came w/o sights, I should not need a riser for this scope to fit my M&P, is that correct?

B) And, out of curiosity, I've been seeing "Co-witness with your iron sights". To be sure I'm understanding this term would you or somebody fully explain for me.

C) I don't believe this Bushnell Trophy TRS-25 comes with flip up dust covers does it?

D) Is it parallax free?

Justice06RR said: Burris Trophy 1x Red dot : $85shipped from Amazon but you will need to buy the extra riser to effectively use backup iron sights. If you want a non-magnification optic this is the way to go. Affordable and funtional. My roomate has it and you can Co-witness with your iron sights.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Troph...burris+red+dot

Metal god
October 29, 2012, 09:28 AM
hey whats up . To co-witness is to be looking through your iron sights and the red-dot at the same time . If all is done right you get this .


http://imageshack.us/a/img560/1613/guns081.jpg

It is important The red-dot is set to the correct hight so it will match up to your iron sights If you plan to co-witness . I have flip up iron sights . First I zero the iron sights then flipped them down . Next I zero the red-dot and when you flip up your iron sights the red-dot should be sitting right on top of the front post . I don"t like to co-witness . All's it seems to do for me is put stuff in my field of view that does not really need to be there . It is cool how when done correctly everything lines up thow.

bulletproof
October 29, 2012, 06:58 PM
Since I don't have any iron sights I don't have to worry about it. I was just curious about it. Thanks for the pic, that is pretty cool looking.

Metal god
October 29, 2012, 07:34 PM
I strongly recomend you put back up iron sights on it :). When you buy the lower end red-dot they tend not to have an auto off .:( I went to the range once and when I turned my scope on ," NOTHING ".:mad:I had left it on oops. Thats why I bought all those batteries . I now carry 2 in my gun bag and 1 in the grip .If that happens to you . you don't shoot that day . How about this scenario , your out hunting and you drop the gun or bang it on a tree . you check the dot it's still there so no problem , but when you take a shot your 2 feet off cus it lost zero from the impact . For me I just pop up my sights and take another shot and get my trophy . You , well your bumed cus you can't take a follow up shot . Now you have to resight in your rifle with the limited ammo you brought :eek: Making all that noise scaring everything away for a mile .:(

Should I go on LOL :D But really if its just a range gun and you keep some batteries with you , you should be good . I have the Magpul flip up sights on mine and they work well . Unfortunately you would not be able to use them cus there plastic and your front sight mounts to your gas block . the gas block gets very hot and could melt the sight .

These are the best price I could find with a quick search that can be mounted to a gas block .
http://www.outdoorgearbarn.com/p-29697-ggg-a2-spring-actuated-flip-up-frnt.aspx?gclid=CLqp4MXCp7MCFSFyQgodXCsAzg

bulletproof
October 29, 2012, 11:29 PM
1) You must be a mind reader. I'm glad you brought this up. Believe it or not, recently, since I've been having such a hard time choosing an optic, I had been thinking about iron sights. And, I had intended to buy a rifle with sights, it just didn't work out that way. I also am not familiar with which sights would work for my M&P. And, dang, the iron sights cost as much or more than some of the Optics!

2) I kinda like these that I saw on the link page, but, I think they are plastic. Are these the ones that you have? http://www.outdoorgearbarn.com/p-21511-magpul-ar15-mbus-gen-2-back-up-front-sight-black.aspx

http://www.outdoorgearbarn.com/p-21513-magpul-ar15-mbus-gen-2-back-up-rear-sight-black.aspx

3) I'm pretty sure a rear sight would need to be the fold down type, but the front might not have to fold. Example, the tall front sights, that I call a Pyramid, don't know the proper name, but they have the sight post in the top of them. Would this type work, and are they expensive also? Let me get one thing straight, I'm not cheap, it's just that I don't have a lot of money, and I spent all my money on the rifle. I think I forgot about buying sights!:D Maybe I should have bought a sling shot!?:D Don't laugh, it worked for David!

Metal god
October 30, 2012, 03:34 AM
Yes those are the same ones I have . I should add that I put my front sight on my gas block . I just did not want to recomend that to you . Im running my own test to see if the front sight will melt , deform , or just lose zero . I have not ran it very hard yet . The most I put through it was about 200 rounds in one range trip . I was not shooting at a very high rate of fire either .

http://imageshack.us/a/img138/116/guns006.jpg

There is one thing you must be aware of when buying your front sight . They make two basic sizes . One that goes on a gas block that sits lower then the rail on the reciever and one that sits on a gas block thats at the same plane or hight as the rail on your reciever . It apears by the link you gave showing your rifle that yours is on the same plane/hight .

sorry I thought that link I gave you was both front and rear sights . Here is a fixed sight that would work . I do recommend you get the flip up type but it is in no way a must .http://www.midwayusa.com/product/798004/daniel-defense-detachable-fixed-front-sight-ar-15-handguard-height-aluminum-matte


Yea I get the money thing . I put alot of money in to my black rifle . Thats why I have the magpul sights and not the troy sights I want . I still need to get a muzzle brake and a nice red-dot as well . So yes I get it , no need to explain . Hell I've bought so much stuff while build and tinkering with my others . I almost have enough stuff to build another one . All I really need is a barrel and a upper but I told my self that I must finish the back one first before I start another .

bulletproof
October 30, 2012, 05:52 PM
Well, it sounds like you're AR poor!

I did a search for Troy iron sights, and this was included on a page, that it pulled up. I believe these will fit my rifle, won't they? What do you think of these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUIS-Front-Rear-Folding-Sights-Work-with-Troy-Battle-Sights-Black-/370673140196?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564dd741e4

EDIT: These are metal-reinforced polymer. Don't know if they'll work on mine though.?
http://www.amazon.com/Front-Sight-Rifles-Profile-Flip-Up/dp/B0085ZHANM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1351637850&sr=8-3&keywords=troy+iron+sights

allaroundhunter
October 30, 2012, 06:20 PM
Bulletproof, those are not actual Troy sights. Actual Troy sights will run you close to $150 for both front and rear.

I would not buy knock-offs. If you want to stay as cheap as possible, stick with the Magpul MBUS sights.

bulletproof
October 30, 2012, 07:14 PM
Thanks allaroundhunter. I was afraid of that. I just posted an edit to the post u answered, before I saw ur reply. And, they're probably not much good either.

allaroundhunter
October 30, 2012, 07:19 PM
Judging by the reviews of them....I would give them a no...

bulletproof
October 30, 2012, 07:19 PM
I'm so sick of looking that I'm about to the point of just going on and getting the Bushnell TRS-25 and then maybe get some back up irons later. Also, the Bushnell TRS-25's, I've discovered, have several different models, all labeled Bushnell TRS-25. It's like they want to keep us confused!!?

allaroundhunter
October 30, 2012, 07:27 PM
Heck, if you are getting a red dot you can wait for the irons until funds allow! You really don't need to have them both at the same time.

Just take it a little bit at a time, you will never be completely done with your AR, there will always be something to add. Trying to get it all at once will just drive you crazy :p

Which TRS models are you finding and I will try to help you narrow down between the different features.

bulletproof
October 30, 2012, 07:36 PM
Thanks for your help.

Actually, this is the one I've being eyeing.
http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-TRS-25-1xRed-Riflescope/dp/B00200E0HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351188971&sr=8-1&keywords=bushnell+red+dot A good friend has this same model, and he likes it, and he also has a variable scope on his also. I've recently asked him some questions about his, but, he hasn't got back to me yet. It has good reviews, and it is in my price range.

I have been looking at the holograph types, but, I haven't found one that I'm comfortable with yet. I did find this one, but it has only 1 review, but it's good. I also saw this same model on another site, but they had discontinued it for some reason.. They did not say why.http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/SCP-933

I was looking at the holographs cause I like the idea of both eyes open. I don't know if the Bushnell TRS-25 can be used with both eyes open or not.?

allaroundhunter
October 30, 2012, 07:48 PM
Any 1x optic is designed to be used with both eyes open, so yes, the TRS will work fine with that.

The difference between the two is that you are looking at a tube style red dot vs. an open style red dot. I personally prefer an open style to a tube, but everyone has different preferences on that one.

Metal god
October 30, 2012, 08:46 PM
Im going to the range tomorrow . I'll tell what Im going to do . I'll bring "little EVIL" ( yes I named my AR ) And I will run it hard and get the gas block as hot as I can . That way we will both know if the Magpul sights can be on the gas block or if they melt and lose zero . I will explain what I did and I will post the results with pictures of the sights and the targets .

Metal god
October 30, 2012, 08:55 PM
Just take it a little bit at a time, you will never be completely done with your AR, there will always be something to add. Trying to get it all at once will just drive you crazy

Yes this is so true . I have both types of red-dot and they both work fine . I like the round ones on the AR . More of a looks thing rather then function .

http://imageshack.us/a/img109/2301/guns010.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/8091/003stx.jpg

bulletproof
October 30, 2012, 11:38 PM
Quote: Trying to get it all at once will just drive you crazy.

1) Ain't it so! Shoulda told me sooner.:D I'm just looking for the best sight picture, and quick target acquisition as I can get, and of course, price always comes into play.

2) And, actually, after all the comparisons I've made, it seems like the Bushnell TRS-25 meets most, if not all, of the requirements.

3) Hey Mg, what's the sight on your Ruger Mark III?

4) Mg, will be looking forward to your range experience tomorrow. BTW, "little EVIL" isn't the rifle that has the Red Dot on it that "Lost Zero" is it?

Metal god
October 30, 2012, 11:56 PM
4) Mg, will be looking forward to your range experience tomorrow. BTW, "little EVIL" isn't the rifle that has the Red Dot on it that "Lost Zero" is it?

It is the very same one . I will also be testing that red dot out as well . I plan to leave it on the gun all day while I do a bunch of rapid fire and I may even bang it around a llitle . I will let you know how it goes .

As for the sight on my ruger . It's http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006GGC6O0/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01
When I got it in the mail it had some scratchs on it and amazon gave half my money back so it cost me $18 :D and it works great . At ten yards I can put 10 shots through a dime size hole .

bulletproof
October 31, 2012, 12:31 AM
Do you know if the Weaver style mount, that comes with the Bushnell TRS-25, won't that fit on my S&W M&P rail?

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Trophy-TRS-25-1xRed-Riflescope/dp/B00200E0HM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351188971&sr=8-1&keywords=bushnell+red+dot

allaroundhunter
October 31, 2012, 12:37 AM
Yes, it will fit the top rail of your M&P without a problem :)

bulletproof
October 31, 2012, 06:21 PM
Thanks, glad to get that info!! I kinda suspected that it would but, was not 100%.

Metal god
November 1, 2012, 04:40 AM
Well I'm back from the range and have nothing really good to report . I know you know the details of what I was going to do . I'm just writing my full review of my test cus I''m going to start a thread dedicated to the front sight and mounting it to a gas block . This way I will only have to write it once copy and paste .

Lets start with the Magpul MBUS gen 2.

I have the sght mounted to the my gas block ( against the recmmendations of Magpul ). My plan was to fire 100 rounds quickly through the gun to get the gas block and front sight very hot .

I started by making sure the Iron sights were zeroed and then fired a five shot group ( the entire test was conducted at 50 yards ). Unfortunately I lost or misplaced that target . I can tell you they were on target about 3 MOA .( 2 low-2 high and 1 dead center )

I then fired 100 rounds in 82 seconds ( timed ) . When I finished the barrel was smoking and I could smell something that smelled alot like plastic burning :eek: Here is the front sight right after the test and the target I shot . I had the front sight down cus I was using my red dot to stay on target for the test .
http://imageshack.us/a/img40/5991/guntargets001.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img171/5830/guntargets004.jpg

I let everything cool down and fired a five shot group again . Here is the target ( it's the group on the right ). As you can see the shots are high and to the left . Not uber bad but this is only at 50 yards . At 100 yards that would be a big time mis .
http://imageshack.us/a/img24/7222/guntargets005.jpg

I then re-zeroed the sights and they seemed to work fine . The front sight is still solid and operates just fine but IMO it did lose zero .


Now for the Red-dot (test was conducted at 50 yards ) . I did sight it in right before I did the 100 round test above . As you can see from the 100 round test it apears that the sight moved up from the original zero ( the original zeroed target was also on the target I lost ). I was bumbed about it moving so I re-zeroed it ( target on left ) then put the gun up for about an hour . Before I started shooting it again . I took my 4 in 1 screw driver and banged the scope about 8 times with the handle side pretty good ( front , back ,top ,side, ) . I then shot 30 rounds quikly , let the gun rest a minute or so and shot a 5 shot group ( middle ) . It apears to have held zero this time even after me banging on it .



Im not sure if it just needed to settle in to stay zeroed or if it will just lose zero again next time I go . I left the red-dot on the gun . Next time I go to the range I will check and see if it is still holding zero . Now that I have data and targets to compare it too.I will know right away and should not have to do as much next time . I may be in denial but Im not ready to give up on this sight just yet . However I can not in good conscience recommend it at this time .

Hope this helps . It was alot of fun doing the test .

bulletproof
November 1, 2012, 10:04 PM
I don't have time to post much at the moment, but, it looks as if you got some good pics. Thanks for posting'em!

When I come back I'll tell y'll about what I ordered today!

bulletproof
November 3, 2012, 11:30 PM
Well, I placed an order 11/01/12, & I thought I'd post my selections now for ya'll to see. I apologize Metal, that I still haven't had time to read your Range report as close as I'd like, so I'l hold off on my reply, if you don't mind. 24 hours just ain't as long, for me, as it used to be! So, with that in mind, here's what I ordered.

1) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00200E0HM/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00
I decided to go with this because the majority of the reviews were very positive, and I was tired of looking. And, I could not find a holograph that I was comfortable with, even though I think I might have liked it better, but, I have no proof of that.

2) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TWZG4G/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02

Okay, I ordered this because I saw a you tube or read somewhere that this would be needed to co-witness this red dot with iron sights, in the 1/3 picture(?). I hope you know what I'm meaning with the 1/3 picture, but, I can't remember the proper description for the co-witness thingy. This may help my explanation. I know I saw one you tube, and the fella had a different riser, and the sight picture was up higher, but, he said it still worked for him. So, I still plan on getting iron sites sooner, rather than later, I hope.

3) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AGF9N6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01

Now, I don't know if this thing will work or not. I've never used a bore sighter before, but, thought with the price of ammo these days, it might pay for itself. There were both positive and negative reviews for this thing. So, I don't know. Any of ya'll have experience with bore sighters in general, or maybe even this model???

4) So, what do you think of my selections???????

Metal god
November 4, 2012, 12:00 AM
I like what you got and I think you will enjoy the red-dot alot . As for the bore sight laser . I have that very model and it works just fine . I've used it at least 15 times and I have always been on paper at 50 yards .

There are two thngs worth noting about the sighter . 1 ) It worked on my ARs but because of the flash hider it may not seat perfect . 2 ) This will help for the AR issue . Sometimes the laser is not calibrated perfectly .

What I do is sight the rifle in as directed then turn the bore sight a 1/2 turn making sure it's still firmly in place and look down/through the sight again. If your sight is still lined up with the dot from the bore sight it's calibrated well . Mine is not . When you turn the bore sight you can see the area that the bore sight dot moves . I just find the middle ground of wear I see the dot move around .Sorry Im having a hard time thinking of a better way to explain this . When you use the bore sight you will see what I mean about all this . Now that I've scared the hell out of you how else may I be of help .:D

Don't worry it works fine , you should not have a problem .:cool:

EDIT : OK I just tested someting out with 3 of my rifles and it works . If you have a scoped rifle that you know is zeroed . you can test the bore sighter with that gun first . Just turn the bore sighter tell the dot lines up with the cross hires ( as close as you can get it ) then mark the the bore sight so you know what position to put it in for the rest of your rifles . I marked mine so it should always be facing striaght up . When I put it in my other two rifles that I know are sighted in . It lined up almost perfect .Definitely close enough to get on paper at 50 yards and as close as it lined up I bet I would be on paper at 100 yds .

tdawg
November 4, 2012, 12:15 AM
Well, I placed an order 11/01/12, & I thought I'd post my selections now for ya'll to see. I apologize Metal, that I still haven't had time to read your Range report as close as I'd like, so I'l hold off on my reply, if you don't mind. 24 hours just ain't as long, for me, as it used to be! So, with that in mind, here's what I ordered.

1) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00200E0HM/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00
I decided to go with this because the majority of the reviews were very positive, and I was tired of looking. And, I could not find a holograph that I was comfortable with, even though I think I might have liked it better, but, I have no proof of that.

2) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TWZG4G/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02

Okay, I ordered this because I saw a you tube or read somewhere that this would be needed to co-witness this red dot with iron sights, in the 1/3 picture(?). I hope you know what I'm meaning with the 1/3 picture, but, I can't remember the proper description for the co-witness thingy. This may help my explanation. I know I saw one you tube, and the fella had a different riser, and the sight picture was up higher, but, he said it still worked for him. So, I still plan on getting iron sites sooner, rather than later, I hope.

3) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AGF9N6/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01

Now, I don't know if this thing will work or not. I've never used a bore sighter before, but, thought with the price of ammo these days, it might pay for itself. There were both positive and negative reviews for this thing. So, I don't know. Any of ya'll have experience with bore sighters in general, or maybe even this model???

4) So, what do you think of my selections???????

I bought the same red dot and riser mount and I'm hoping to get to the range tomorrow to try it out!

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk HD

Metal god
November 4, 2012, 12:32 AM
I bought the same red dot and riser mount and I'm hoping to get to the range tomorrow to try it out!

WOO HOO , this is getting exciting .

Did you mount it to your rifle with the riser ?

If you have iron sights , does it line up with them so you can co-witness them both .

I can't wait to here how they all work together . make sure you update us on how it goes

tdawg
November 4, 2012, 12:42 AM
WOO HOO , this is getting exciting .

Did you mount it to your rifle with the riser ?

If you have iron sights , does it line up with them so you can co-witness them both .

I can't wait to here how they all work together . make sure you update us on how it goes

Yep, it all mounted real nicely. Coupled with magpul mbus rear site and A2 front site. Cowitness is in lower 1/3.

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk HD

tdawg
November 4, 2012, 02:27 PM
Yep, it all mounted real nicely. Coupled with magpul mbus rear site and A2 front site. Cowitness is in lower 1/3.

Here's what it looks like mounted to my rifle. Sadly, I won't get the range today; have to wait until tomorrow or Tuesday.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/05/uhajurar.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/05/3umy2eqy.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/05/bumysa4e.jpg

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Justice06RR
November 6, 2012, 01:54 AM
Bulletproof, I think you did good. The Bushnell TRS is an excellent red dot.

My roomate has it on his AR and it is very compact and high quality for the price.

tdawg
November 8, 2012, 02:16 PM
Finally got to go to the range! This is my first AR and last night was the first time I've ever even fired any AR. What fun! I was expecting some strong recoil, but man is it light; I think my 9mm pistol has more recoil! The rifle feels superb tucked into my shoulder and the trigger felt very crisp.

Based on the 80 rounds I put down range, I have a lot of work to do in terms of accuracy and precision, but I can't wait to try some more. I really need to work on trigger control / trigger pull, holding technique / support, and based on the little recoil, support hand / off hand shooting. I also may have messed up the zero on my red dot and am not 100% confident my irons are zeroed, I need a dead shot to calibrate my sights. My rifle range tops out at 25 yards, which is good considering my eye sight. :).

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

bulletproof
November 13, 2012, 09:05 PM
damd, i just posted a long reply and it told me I was not logged in, when I know I certainly was logged in. So, now I lost my long post, and don't have time to redo it! Why does it do that?

I'll just say that the TRS dot in the sight looks a lot like a cluster of grapes, and cranked up to about 9, 10, & especially 11, it has a red haze all around the dot, kinda like a slow motion sneeze with red particles around the dot. Sure don't like that.

Haven't had chance to try Bushnell Bore sighter. More later.

tdawg
November 13, 2012, 09:40 PM
damd, i just posted a long reply and it told me I was not logged in, when I know I certainly was logged in. So, now I lost my long post, and don't have time to redo it! Why does it do that?

I'll just say that the TRS dot in the sight looks a lot like a cluster of grapes, and cranked up to about 9, 10, & especially 11, it has a red haze all around the dot, kinda like a slow motion sneeze with red particles around the dot. Sure don't like that.

Haven't had chance to try Bushnell Bore sighter. More later.

I usually turn mine to 2 or 3. Indoors I haven't seen a need to go higher. That said, I agree it doesn't look sharp except maybe at lowest power, but I assume that's what we get for $80.

I'm dying to try a nice reflex or holo or red dot sight.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

allaroundhunter
November 13, 2012, 09:55 PM
I'm dying to try a nice reflex or holo or red dot sight.

While Eotechs are blurry to me (because of my astigmatism I have been told), the difference between an Aimpoint and a TRS is enough to get me to fork out the cash.....

tdawg
November 13, 2012, 11:21 PM
While Eotechs are blurry to me (because of my astigmatism I have been told), the difference between an Aimpoint and a TRS is enough to get me to fork out the cash.....

Anybody tried a Burris fastfire? I likentje price of those...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 01:38 AM
Well, I was thinking that I might have to return my TRS to see if I could maybe get a better lookin dot. After reading all the good reviews on them I was expecting a better looking dot than what I'm seeing now.

Does anybody know if all these TRS dots are similar to what I described or or some more clear than mine? I would like to know before I waste my time returning it & having to wait for another.

The main reason I opted for the red dot instead of the traditional crosshairs scope is my use for it is a defense rifle, close combat, etc. So, in light of that, I guess if all these TRS dots are like mine, & even if I keep do keep it, I'm assuming that it would still serve my purpose.

Hope someone's got some more info?

Thanks

tdawg
November 14, 2012, 01:42 AM
I'll try taking a picture of my dot tomorrow and post it here to see if it helps you at all.

allaroundhunter
November 14, 2012, 01:49 AM
Anybody tried a Burris fastfire? I likentje price of those...

The Fastfire is a smaller reflex sight. I have used them on pistols and liked them for that purpose, and as a back-up sight on an AR they are good, I just wouldn't use one as my primary rifle optic (I don't like the small frame and 3 MOA dot as a main optic).

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 02:02 AM
Thanks, tdawg. I look forward to the pic!



"I don't like the 3 MOA dot as a main optic" allaroundhunter, I had planned on trying to get a 1 MOA, but couldn't find what I wanted.

allaroundhunter
November 14, 2012, 02:07 AM
Well, to be honest, for a defensive gun 3 MOA is better than 1 MOA. I just prefer 2 MOA. It just seems to be the best mix of quick acquisition and accuracy at further ranges that I like.

Metal god
November 14, 2012, 02:24 AM
although we have different sights . Mine does do someting similar . I would descibe mine more as a sunburst then grapes . If you see more then one dot at all I would say there is a problem . For me I have one small dot that get bigger and more blury as it gets brighter . I will say this when Im outside and the sun is very bright I do not notice the sunburst as much . In low light like inside a house or something I really only need it on 3 max . I just took a couple pictures of my dot on the lowest setting and the highest setting but Im on the wrong computer to upload them . I'll do it in just a minute .:)

First photo lowest setting next the brightest .The bright photo is not a exact representation of what I see when I look through the sight but its close . It's more sunburst then a glowing halo but sill the same Idea . the camera did something with the dot when I took the picture .

http://imageshack.us/a/img38/9062/guns087.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/6765/guns088.jpg

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 05:09 PM
Hey Metal, your bright setting is very close to what mine looks like. I've got to determine, if I can, if I should exchange mine for another TRS, or just keep this one. If they're all alike, or if it is just me, then no reason to exchange it. Thanks for the pics!

Metal god
November 14, 2012, 06:33 PM
yea Im hoping Tdawg can upload a picture or two of the sight you guys have . That way you will know for sure what's up with yours . This may help . If you wear glasses ( I do ) . It's important to make sure your not looking thruogh them right on the edge by the rim . It can play games with the optic . If I don't have my glasses pushed all the way up and I look through the sight I will see 2 dots . The same basic thing happens to me when I look through any optic really .

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 07:05 PM
"If you wear glasses" : I just wear reading glasses, and after looking thru the scope without them, I tried a look with glasses on, and that's when I saw the "grapes".

tdawg
November 14, 2012, 10:12 PM
Here's as best as I could capture

Both at full power:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PfnDT08Ub_k/UKRb9zQMjkI/AAAAAAAAKVo/adH8MifVH80/s800/IMG_20121114_184958.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aVTn4rKpZGs/UKRb94xtZvI/AAAAAAAAKVo/oKT9ZO-9ytU/s800/IMG_20121114_185314.jpg

Lowest power, from frame of video:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xvHdoqBXH90/UKRbjQL8Z8I/AAAAAAAAKVc/5T8LV5sp_eo/s800/VID_20121114_185107.jpg

Metal god
November 14, 2012, 10:28 PM
WOW , compared to mine thats a nice dot . Is that an accurate representation of what you see when you look through the optic . If so thats not to bad for $80 .

tdawg
November 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
WOW , compared to mine thats a nice dot . Is that an accurate representation of what you see when you look through the optic . If so thats not to bad for $80 .

My contact lenses add some flare and such, so when I look through the optic I don't see such a clean dot.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 10:56 PM
The full power shots resemble mine, I see a sort of cloud around your dot in photo. I wonder why your dot is not red in the lowest power pic?

But, it's my notion that you can't capture a true replica of the view thru these scopes with a camera. I believe that these modern cameras, with all their enhancements, make the photos look better, maybe than they really do. I could be wrong, don't know for sure.?
But, by the same token, in the first pic in the full power setting, I was able to see the red cloudy halo, surrounding the red dot.

tdawg
November 14, 2012, 11:17 PM
The full power shots resemble mine, I see a sort of cloud around your dot in photo. I wonder why your dot is not red in the lowest power pic?

But, it's my notion that you can't capture a true replica of the view thru these scopes with a camera. I believe that these modern cameras, with all their enhancements, make the photos look better, maybe than they really do. I could be wrong, don't know for sure.?
But, by the same token, in the first pic in the full power setting, I was able to see the red cloudy halo, surrounding the red dot.

I agree it's likely not possible to capture what our eyes see when looking through these optics.

I would say that it's understandable that a halo would appear at higher brightness settings because of light bleed trying to over brighten a 4 moa dot, but I don't know what a high end optic looks like.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

bulletproof
November 14, 2012, 11:26 PM
Our TRS's are supposed to be 3MOA dot.

"but I don't know what a high end optic looks like": Nor do I, & never will unless i get to look thru someone else's !

Off hand, I can't think of an instance when I would need the highest power.

tdawg
November 14, 2012, 11:46 PM
Our TRS's are supposed to be 3MOA dot.

"but I don't know what a high end optic looks like": Nor do I, & never will unless i get to look thru someone else's !

Off hand, I can't think of an instance when I would need the highest power.

I didn't remember what the dot size was spec'd at; I said 4 only because that rang some sort of bell. :)

I can't picture a time is need highest power; so far I haven't needed anything above 3. If I were outside in daylight then sure.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

bulletproof
November 15, 2012, 03:37 PM
I got a notification of a PM message, but, nobody's name was on it, so I did not open it. If the sender will re-send it to me again, with your name showing so I'll know it's legitimate, I'll get back to you.

I have no trust in the internet any more, always trying to scam you!

Justice06RR
November 17, 2012, 07:44 AM
Well, I was thinking that I might have to return my TRS to see if I could maybe get a better lookin dot. After reading all the good reviews on them I was expecting a better looking dot than what I'm seeing now.

Does anybody know if all these TRS dots are similar to what I described or or some more clear than mine? I would like to know before I waste my time returning it & having to wait for another.

The main reason I opted for the red dot instead of the traditional crosshairs scope is my use for it is a defense rifle, close combat, etc. So, in light of that, I guess if all these TRS dots are like mine, & even if I keep do keep it, I'm assuming that it would still serve my purpose.

Hope someone's got some more info?

Hey Bulletproof, I got a chance to look at my roomate's TRS last night. It is pretty much exactly as you stated. The red dot itself resembles some "clustered grapes" at the highest brightness setting, so I don't think there's anything wrong with yours. They probably all come like that.

I would suggest just keeping it and using the lower brightness settings. I think it has 11 brightness settings if I remember correctly? its still a good RDS and very compact, which is what I really like about it. I might end up picking one up myself in the future once my next AR is built. For around $80 its still a good buy. If this was an $800 Aimpoint or Trijicon it would be a different story. But for a fraction of the price for the TRS, you can't go wrong.

bulletproof
November 17, 2012, 07:13 PM
Thanks for the update, but, I returned mine yesterday. I was seeing the "grapes" in the lower settings also, and it was disturbing to me. I tried to convince myself for several days that it would probably be ok, but, I finally couldn't take it. Sumpin like that gets on my nerves.

When I went to Amazon site to get the return set up, I pulled up the TRS while there, and, there was a small yellow window there stating that Amazon was not selling them now. It seems that other customers had a problem with the inventory that Amazon was selling. But, some of the other sellers are still selling them now though. So, just go to Amazon & search the TRS & it will pull up one of the sellers with that info.

Warrior1256
November 17, 2012, 08:02 PM
I recently bought a Del-Ton 5.56 and I am very pleased with it. On Nov. 6th I purchased two additional 30 rd. mags for it just in case Obama won the election. (Good thing I did).

Nathan
November 17, 2012, 09:00 PM
PSA:

PSA is a pretty good retailer with a good web site, good web reputation. They do not answer the phone and can take a day or two to get to email. They have somewhere between damn good and the best prices on most everything.

BUYING THE AR
Glad to see you got the S&W. I have never shot one, but most AR's are pretty similar. Generally, in AR's, it is not about buying the brand, but buying the platform. Colt, Noveske, BCM, LMT and maybe one other are a slight aboration to that rule.

CLEANING
Yes AR's need a good cleaning at some regular round count. You can be an every time guy or go 300 - 500 rounds like I usually do. Clean with a rod topped with a jag and a brush. Use a good bore cleaner like Butches Bore Shine. For lube, find a good one. I prefer Weaponshield CLP. Go with that. Add lube regularly to keep the crud washing off! Last, for cleaning the BCG, a scrapper or carbon cleaner chemical is a must.

OPTIC
All red dots have some flare and or some roughness to the dot/reticle.

To aim with a paralax free red dot, put the dot on the target and pull the trigger. Does not matter where it is in the tube. Place and squeeze. . .it is that easy.

A word about dot sizes. 1 MOA means ~ 1" at 100 yards. . ..25" at 25 yards. Your gun will be roughly 2" at 100 yards accurate. A dot which is 4 - 8 MOA will be good for SD and 0 - 100 yd shooting. . .combat type shooting. a dot 1 - 2 MOA will be good for 50 - 300 yd shooting. ) - 50 is fine too, but just a bit small to be ideal. If you do a magnifier, it will increase the dot size when in use. Not your 4 MOA combat type dot is 12 MOA with a 3 x magnifier. At 300 yards, your dot is covering 36". I hope that was clear.

Then you have EOTech. It is generally a 1 MOA dot in a 65 MOA circle so you can see a big blob when shooting fast at 0 - 25 yds and a fairly precise dot for hooking up at 1, 2, 300 yards.

Normal scopes in a 1 - 4x are great too, but cannot be "cowitnessed" I'll let you search cowitness to get more on that.

The last idea catching speed is the 3x or 4x scope with a rail on it and a teeny tiny JP or Vortex dot sight for quick shooting. Good idea, if you ask me! It is precision and a BUIs all in one. On a QR rail, you can dump it for irons quick also.

UTG. . .Simply stated, you have $600 - $1000 in an AR. Don't ruin your experience with a $58 optic. You might pencil in an optic budget of like $300 - $1000. Maybe narrow to $500 or less if on a budget. Still, optics often decide what you can do with a rifle. Don't be defined by a $57 chinese crap scope. GLAD YOU SPARED YOURSELF THIS MISERY!

Cheap $40 - $80 red dots work, but are not going to give a lifetime of enjoyment. Mine have worked for a while on my 12 ga, crossbow, etc. . .

I like your Bushnell TRS25 choice. Looks like a keeper. If the cloud is even all around, that is about all you can expect IMO. Did it cowitness?

Do you have an FSB?

Yep, an AR is spendy. . .

MAGS
Mags. . .Simply put. Magpul or D&H are the names right now. A 10 pack of each can be had for around $100 when the stars align. I use D&H, but Magpuls are said to be better and don't dent per say.

CHEAP AMMO
Steel case had better run through your gun! Yes, most cheap ammo runs fine, but sometimes it is so weak it won't cycle. This is a rare occurance, but other steel case should run fine. That is because it is crap, not steel case!

IMO, reloading is the key to good cheap ammo. Buying in bulk is good too.

PM me if you want to chat or have a question about this post.

bulletproof
November 21, 2012, 12:06 AM
Just want to wish all ya'll a wonderful & Blessed Thanksgiving!

Metal god
November 21, 2012, 03:49 AM
Thanks man , right back atcha.:) I got 17 people comming over Thur . I'm cooking 2 turkeys 1 ham and smoking a salmon . :eek:

Have you shot your M&P or got the new sight yet ? :cool:

bulletproof
November 21, 2012, 12:06 PM
I'm smoking a salmon: How do you keep it lit? A little humor!:D

Have you shot your M&P or got the new sight yet ?: No not yet. You wouldn't believe all the problems I'm having all at the same time!:(

Metal god
November 21, 2012, 12:42 PM
I'm sorry to here your not doing well . Getting out and shooting always brightens up my day . I hope you can do that soon .

As for the salmon a big water pipe and torch seems to work . :D Last year I tried snorting coke but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in the straw . :eek::D

Be well my friend :cool:

bulletproof
November 23, 2012, 01:26 AM
Anybody ever use these magazines from PSA? They should fit my S&W M&P 15 won't they?

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/accessories/black-friday-accessories-sale/c-products-defense-30rd-aluminum-magazine-10-pack.html

A PMag from Magpul came supplied with my rifle, I'm having a hard time trying to determine which ones will fit my rifle? You'd think there would be some identifying code on them or am I overlooking it?

allaroundhunter
November 25, 2012, 10:00 PM
Bulletproof, any and all AR15/M4/M16 mags will work in your rifle. The main thing that you have to do is find good magazines.

PMags are good. C-products mags and USGI mags are good when you have anti-tilt followers in them.

bulletproof
December 2, 2012, 11:47 PM
allaroundhunter said: Bulletproof, any and all AR15/M4/M16 mags will work in your rifle. Yes, I already knew that, I was just interested in knowing if anybody had used those from PSA, that were in that link, & if they were any good, or not?

This is the link: http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...e-10-pack.html

allaroundhunter
December 2, 2012, 11:54 PM
C-Products mags are usually good IME. However, that page does not say whether they have an anti-tilt follower or not.

While the followers are cheap on an individual level (about $3/each), when you are having to buy 10 that adds up to make those 10 mags cost $30+ in addition to what their base price is...

bulletproof
December 3, 2012, 12:09 AM
Quote: While the followers are cheap on an individual level (about $3/each), when you are having to buy 10 that adds up to make those 10 mags cost $30+ in addition to what their base price is...

Whoa, I didn't know about the followers, I'm glad I asked first , cause I certainly don't want to have to buy any followers .

allaroundhunter
December 3, 2012, 12:16 AM
Yep, 99% of the time, malfunctions are going to be caused by the magazine. With ARs, magazine-induced failures are much less common when using anti-tilt followers. These Brownell's magazines with Magpul followers are a good deal on the 10 pack (about $11/mag).

http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/ar-15-m16-tactical-magazine-prod24307.aspx

bulletproof
December 3, 2012, 12:24 AM
Hey, thanks for the link!

allaroundhunter
December 3, 2012, 12:28 AM
Not a problem, hope it helps, or at least gives you a clue as to what to look for when purchasing magazines!

And if you are buying in store and want to double-check, just push down on the front of the follower. If it tilts down, leave it be unless you can get it for around the $6 range (at least that is what used, non-anti tilt mags go for near me). If it doesn't tilt down and instead the whole follower moves down (as if you had loaded a round), then you have an anti-tilt follower and are g2g.

bulletproof
December 3, 2012, 01:04 AM
What's g2g mean?

Dr Big Bird PhD
December 3, 2012, 01:05 AM
Good to go. Open package, load mag, turn safety off, fire.

Edit: Don't literally do this unless you live on a ranch.

Metal god
December 4, 2012, 12:40 PM
Good deal on mags for 2 days http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/dh-5-56-30rd-aluminum-mag-10415.html

allaroundhunter
December 4, 2012, 04:01 PM
^^^Grab those while you can! Great deal

bulletproof
December 16, 2012, 07:46 PM
Hey, allaroundhunter, I've been offline with computer problems, &I checked your Brownells link & didn't see any mags for $11.
And, I also missed out on the PSA deal too, they're TEMPORARILY out of stock. So, there ya are!

allaroundhunter
December 17, 2012, 12:33 PM
bulletproof,

The ones that come out to $11/mag are the ones being sold 10 for $110. Currently they are on backorder. Now, if you are not wanting to spend $110 on mags (I don't really blame you), there are many places where you can grab a couple of Pmags for about $12 a piece with free shipping!

Aimsurplus.com has free shipping on most Magpul products (when they are in stock), and they also have free shipping on the Troy Battlemags (also great polymer mags).

bulletproof
December 17, 2012, 01:33 PM
Thanks I'll check it out.

I've been wondering where can you get one of the "post" front sights, that come on most of the AR's, & on the military versions? And I assume they are pretty good sights? How costly are they?

Metal god
December 17, 2012, 03:00 PM
Here you go A2 front sight gas block . Remember this is a very important part of the gun . If not installed right the gun may not work poperly .

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/sight-parts/front-sight-bases/sight-front-w-lug-sku231000123-18342-42351.aspx

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/980577/dpms-a2-front-sight-base-gas-block-with-bayonet-lug-ar-15-lr-308-750-inside-diameter-steel-matte

http://www.armslist.com/posts/691013/mobile-alabama-gun-parts-for-sale--ar15-a2-style-gas-block-front-sight--bayonet-lug--sling-ring-

I would get this if you want a front sight for cheap and will work for plinking . You will most likely need some type of high heat thread lock .
http://www.amazon.com/Global-Military-AR-15-Detachable-Front/dp/B001LZT1YY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355773259&sr=8-2&keywords=fixed+front+sight+gas+block